The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Should a dangerous game rifle start with "4"?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Let us remember what Michael's work has proven, that with proper bullets like CEBs, NFs, GSCs and the like, we only need enough weight in our bullets to reach about .280 sectional density, and the penetration into elephant skulls will be more than enough! With .458 diameter bullet that is just 411 grains! Is not the classic .416 Rigby round loaded with 410 grainers? So maybe the New Perfect All-Around Rifle is the .458 caliber SxS regulated with such a load, and set up with QD scope, and rifle weighing 9.5 - 10 pounds unloaded and sans scope. D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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I am not sure that too much emphasis is being put on caliber and not enough on familiarity with the rifle in question. I have killed three elephants and five Cape buffalo with my .505 loaded to .500 Nitro Express level (570 grain bullet at 2150 fps.). I have also killed one elephant and one buffalo with a .458 Winchester Magnum. There is no question in my mind which would be my "go-to gun", were the opportunity to arise again: the .505. I wonder, however, how much of this is mental. I had fired the .505 literally hundreds of times, mostly with reduced load cast bullets, and I felt thoroughly comfortable with it, in the way a tennis player or golfer would feel with his favorite racquet or club. All of the animals died in a satisfactory manner, so there is no empirical evidence to point to favoring one or the other. However, I did have to deal with a charging rhino with the .505, and there is no doubt in my mind that under those circumstances, that would be the rifle for me. | |||
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xausa, Sir, are you strictly a bolt-action man? D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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DR Hunter: Michael's work has indeed been miraculous. I think he has "shown" that in his test media, flat nose homogenous solids penetrate "better and straiter" than round nose solids. All of his field work and the field trials by other hunters seem to provide much empirical support for that theory. However, I also think that there is plenty of empirical evidence to show that round nose solids, such as Woodleighs copper clad steel solids, still work very well. Some guys like the lighter and faster bullets. I do too. When I use Barnes TSX bullets, I usually drop down in bullet weight. However, for heavier game such as bison or elk, I have always used heavy bullets at modest velocity. They are stunning killers and you can't go wrong with a Woodleigh. Just my two cents. Where the new wonder bullets from CEB, and North Fork really shine is in the medium bores. They bring guns like the 9,3s, 375, 45/70 to a new level. But we digress. As I said above, shot the heaviest caliber that YOU can shoot well. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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No fleas on the .505!  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Actually, my .458 Winchester Magnum was a Krieghoff O/U double rifle, one of several I own. I do have a 50 year history of competetive shooting behind me, much of it with bolt guns, so I have more than a passing familiarity with them. | |||
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xausa, So given that you are familiar with both doubles and bolt action rifles in heavy calibers, are you saying you prefer a bolt 505 over say a double 500 NE when facing a rhino charge? Not being critical, just trying to learn from you and your experience. Thank you! By the way, may I ask if your O/U Krieghoff is vintage or of recent manufacture? I love those O/U rifles as well as the SxS configuration!  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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Dave Bush, Respectfully I submit that Michael's own favorite of his creations is the true .500 caliber, certainly NOT a medium bore! If I recall his elephant bullet was no where close to the 570 grns normally used in 500 NE ammo. D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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I fired three shots in rapid succession at the rhino, the first of which was not potentially fatal, the second and third of which proved to be ultimately fatal, so yes, in this instance I preferred the bolt gun. My double rifle was ordered by me in the spring of 1970 and delivered in the spring of 1971. In addition to the .458 barrel set, it also has a second set of barrels in .375 H&H and a third set in 20 gauge 3" Magnum. | |||
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It would seem that three shots is about the maximum that could be used in a charge situation with a bolt gun. It things haven't been resolved by then there should be time to reload. The animal has either veered away, or may take a leisurely 'insurance shot', or else the gun is no longer in possession and a partner must sort out friend from foe with a different rifle. The last scenario is most notorious with cats. So does a dangerous game rifle NEED a fourth round capability? And is a third round capability already excessive over a 'double' standard? Some users of doubles have held two rounds in the non-trigger hand for access to four rounds. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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When pursuing cats on the ground (as opposed to shooting them from a hide), is it preferable to use a double vs a bolt? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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"Pursuing on the ground" sounds like a worst-case scenario for leopard. I've never hunted a leopard and only seen one on the ground while hunting once. It was moving away. I've read that the best follow-up medicine for leopard is a leather wrap around the neck and a shotgun with buckshot. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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I once was in a situation where a buffalo came bursting out of a clump of bushes where he was bedded down and ran past me at a range of 35-40 yards. I emptied my .505 into him, four shots, and he promptly expired. Three of the four shots went into his shoulder and the group they formed could have been covered with a playing card. The fourth shot was on the same level, but somewhat farther back. I was standing on a rock ledge, somewhat above him, so that his back was about the level of my feet, and the bullets accordingly ranged downward from the point of entry. It's amazing how fast a bolt action can be worked, given the right incentive. Granted, this was not a charge, but it does serve as an indication of a properly manipulated bolt action's capability. | |||
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Above sure would have been exciting to watch!!! I commend you on your rifle shooting skill!!!  The Rhino charge likewise. And your O/U is middle- aged, about a dozen years younger than I am,  and IT sounds like a winner friend!  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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Here we are, after the dust settled:  | |||
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I'm sure you are happy with those horns!!! What firm built your rifle? How many rounds fit in the magazine? Have you any good pictures that you would like to post? Was it scoped during these hunts? If yes, details??? Thanks again.  Maybe a new thread is appropriate... D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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My rifle was built around a wildcat cartridge which I called the .505 SRE (Short Range Express). I designed it in collaboration with John Buhmiller, who furnished the .505 caliber barrel. Keith Francis furnished the reamer and the rifle was assembled in a P-14 Enfield action by my friend and business partner, the late Harry Creighton. I worked up the load, using 570 grain Kynoch .500 Nitro Express bullets sized down to .505, to match the 500 Nitro Express load of 2150 fps. The finished rifle weighed 8 3/4 pounds. Easy to carry and I never noticed the recoil shooting at game.     The action was drilled and tapped for scope mounts, but I never used a scope in the field. Instead, I relied on a Lyman 48 receiver sight and a Redfield sourdough front sight mounted on a Williams ramp. Fajan did the stock to my specifications. The cartridges in the photos were all designed by me. They are, from left to right, the .450 Creighton & Warren (a sort of rimmed .450 Watts for which I have a Krieghoff double rifle), the .505 SRE, and the .577 VSRE, made to duplicate the .577 Nitro Express in a bolt rifle. The bullet is the Kynoch 570 grain .510 bullet I used to kill three elephant, five Cape buffalo and a black rhino. | |||
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Awesome rifle, cartridge, shooting and buffalo! Congrats on all sides Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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xausa, Well, all I can say is you're a DO-ER, not a talker!!! Man Oh Man...  D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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In a .505?   ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Nice cartridge design in the 505. It should be ballistically similar to the 500 ARNyati, being a "Rigby" sized casehead (plus a belt ala 460Weath), cut back to a 'standard' length (2.5"). Yes, 8 3/4 lb. is about right for the bare rifle. I'm guessing that my re-stocked 500 will weigh about 10 lbs. with a scope. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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This cartridge was designed in 1968. You have to consider what was available to work with at the time. John Buhmiller, who "invented" the .460 Weatherby by necking the .378 Weatherby up, had been experimenting with the same basic cartridge necked up to take .470 and .500 bullets. In my correspondence with him he expressed the opinion that the Weatherby case was unnecessarily large. Both of us experimented with the case shortened to 2.500", so as to fit easily into a standard action. I had first planned to duplicate the performance of the .505 Gibbs with my cartridge, but then I discovered that the Gibbs was a propriatary cartridge and that Kynoch would not sell the components. This left me with the choice of using Barnes bullets, which were created using jackets made of copper tubing or resizing Kynoch steel jacketed .510" bullets down to .505". John Buhmiller had a low opinion of Barnes bullets, so I took the latter course. He used to say that a Barnes solid made a pretty good soft point. I found that 90 grains of IMR4064 in my shortened case easily duplicated .500 NE performance with my 22" barrel, with abslutely no pressure signs, so that is the load I used. It pretty much filled the case up to the base of the bullet with no compression. A real joy to load and shoot. | |||
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XAUSA- I think you made a great cartridge for any time, then or now. With a .510" bolt-action rifle and these 'short' 2.5"-2.65" Rigby/Weatherby cases, a person can simply choose whether to duplicate the 500 NE loads at 5800ftlbs., or load a little hotter with faster powders and duplicate the 500 Jeffrey at 6800 ftlbs., or explore slightly heavier or faster loads. It is everything that I want in an African rifle when buffalo are on the menu. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Oh how the times have changed. ____________________________ If you died tomorrow, what would you have done today ... 2018 Zimbabwe - Tuskless w/ Nengasha Safaris 2011 Mozambique - Buffalo w/ Mashambanzou Safaris | |||
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I actually tried out a Barnes soft point on a wildebeest. This was a 600 grain bullet made of .047" thick copper tubing. I hit the animal in the shoulder and he went down, then got up, staggered a couple of steps, and then went down again and stayed down. When we tried to recover the bullet, we discovered that it had shattered on the shoulder bone and there was literally nothing to recover. I had earlier tried them out by shooting them into a clay bank, and the recovered bullets had mushroomed perfectly. Not on the real thing, however. They were still my bullet of choice in following up a wounded lion, but I didn't get to test their effectiveness on that occasion. | |||
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xausa, You have walked with The Giant, John Buhmiller. With your personal exploits and past associations, your memoir would make a great book. No classified material of course. Adventures in wildcatting, Africa, rifle competition, cameo chapter on whatever happened to Mitch Maxberry? Chuck Norris and the Dos Equis Guy got nothing on you.  IIRC, those old copper-tubed, lead-cored, round-nosed Barnes "Solids" had a pinhole-sized hole right in the front of the nose. "Oom Jannie" Buhmiller was right! | |||
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On second thought, a recent post on another thread seemed more appropriate here: it's a Tuesday morning and on the pre-dawn breakfast table are identical CZ 375HH and CZ 416Rigbys, scoped, sighted-in, and both 1MOA accurate. The 375 has 300 grain TSX bullets at 2600fps, 2" high at 100 yards. The 416 has 350 grain TSX bullets at 2800fps, sighted in 2" high at 100 yards. Buffalo and eland are on the hunting menu, which rifle will I pick up? + + + While the answer may be predictable, at least for me, which rifle would be more effective? Are the probabilities that 10% difference in diameter (and 33% in muzzle energy) would be more effective 1 in 5, or 1 in 50, or 1 in 500? I've seen alot of animals taken with 270//30-06 class versus 338//375 class and the 10-25% greater diameter class had a noticeable effect on non-dangerous game. But buffalo are significantly larger than most non-dangerous game and require a correspondingly more careful first shot. Even if the effects on game would be more effective 1 in 5 times on average, that would still mean that 80% of the time one would conclude that "dead is dead", and happily start skinning a well-hunted animal. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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In my case faute de meilleur, the .416, but my concern with the .416 has always been excess penetration, not lack of power. I have always been reluctant to use a cartridge on a herd animal, where a perfect broadside shot may exit and wound another animal on the far side, creating a situation which at the least is unfortunate and at the worst dangerous, because a wounded buffalo, where the wound is not immediately fatal, is dangerous to everyone it encounters. My first elephant was killed with a brain shot from my .505. The bullet was recovered from his eye socket on the far side. To me, that is ideal penetration. On only one occasion has a bullet from that .505 exited (neck shot which missed the spine), and in that instance there was nothing on the far side to wound. In addition to the danger posed by an exiting bullet, there is also the loss of energy. Which is more effective, a 300 grain .375 bullet which expends all its energy in the animal, or a 400 grain .416 bullet which shoots straight through? My personal solution has always been to go for the larger diameter bullet, where more energy is required. Critics may say that this solution results in an unfavorable trajectory for shots beyond a hundred yards, but I would never consider shooting at dangerous game farther away than one hundred yards, and have never done so. | |||
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I think it is win-win, here. A 416 can expend more energy in an animal and still exit if it arrives with considerably more velocity and energy. And a 416Rigby can either provide a flatter trajectory with more velocity, or else it can provide greater penetration should a person choose the same velocity but heavier weight. For example a 416Rigby 400 grain and a 375 300 grain can both use 2600fps. If someone want more trajectory, then they can drop the 416 down to 350 grains at 2800 fps. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Great read chaps and very informative. Although I have a .500 double I tend to carry it on follow ups where at most I might get in two quick shots. To date I have only shot a Lion with it. Otherwise it is a cumbersome block of steel. I prefer my .404J but only because I know it well. Some years back I was a bit short and stupidly sold my 458WM which proved devastating at close range. Of all my guns and considering my work I should have kept the .458 Just my experience. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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To paraphrase Ian Nyschens, a committed DR fan and killer of more elephant than any man alive today, on bolt rifles..."That .416, that's another story". He believed the .416 was the only reliable and fully capable bolt gun for use on Elephants. As I've said many times, the .416 will do anything the .375 will, but will do it better, every time. It is my choice for all-around rifle and, although I prefer the .458 and 500NE for Elephant exclusively, I would use my .416Rem without hesitation, as it has proven itself to me on a dozen Buff. If you can handle a .375, then you can handle a .416. As always, the limiting parameter is practice, practice and then more practice. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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I always have a 375 or 9.3 as my light rifle and back up to my DG rifles which are either .404J, .416, or .458. BUTCH C'est Tout Bon (It is all good) | |||
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Xausa seems to be a man of experience and I would heed his words. I am not a big chap and the .505 knocks me around a bit. ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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Me too!  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Come to SCI in January and I will let you shoot my 550 Gibbs Magnum on a P17. Rich As a noted member has said, "Staying alive starts with a five." | |||
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A 30/06 solid in the rigth place will do the job every time. However if the caliber starts with 5 and you can shoot it well, you will be better off. I also agree with Cal. if the caliber starts with 6 it is even better. | |||
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---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Numbers do not count--only bullet placement is the end result. | |||
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For elephant and buffalo, and also hippo, I prefer my .500 A-Square and 570 grain Barnes Banded Solids (for elephant) and 570 grain Barnes TSX bullets (for hippo and buffalo), both loaded to approximately 2,500 fps. This combination must be seen in action to be fully appreciated. And for these animals, there is no such thing as too much gun. For lion, I believe that the .375 H&H Mag. is very nearly ideal. Although more power may be better, it's not really necessary. Except perhaps on follow ups. The .375 is more gun than is needed for leopard, but that is not a bad thing, and I have used it on Mr. Spots to excellent effect. I also like the .416s, both the Rigby and the Rem. Mag. They hit very hard and are a nice compromise. I imagine that the .404 Jeffery would fall into the same category as the .416s, although I have no personal experience with that cartridge. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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