Over the last 50 or more years I've used the 404 or 416 and a 450-400 more than anything else but I have to say I have never had a problem with the 375 H&H and the 9.3x62 is still one of my favorite DG calibers..The older I get the more I shoot the 9.3x62 because of the lack of recoil and quick recovery..Its easy on the bursitis in my neck and shoulders from shooting big bores my saw bones tells me. I'm told the 375 and 9.3 are not stopping rifles, but not sure thats right, either in the head or spine works every time and we all have PHs to help out now and then...but thats an old campfire and internet arguement to keep us all entertained.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
For elephant and buffalo, and also hippo ... for these animals, there is no such thing as too much gun.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by ztreh:
Numbers do not count--only bullet placement is the end result.

Certainly there are NUMBERS to consider with
velocity, and the science of bullet construction.

If the bullet impact point ON THE HIDE of the
animal is correct BUT, it has poor construction
and or insufficient velocity the shot will fail to
knock down the beast.

The equation has three factors.

People want to hunt dangerous game but they want to use a rifle to remove as much of the danger as possible? It makes no sense.
If you have so much concern for the danger grow some nuts or stay home.

I was visiting with my good friend Johan Calitz, and a fellow asked him if the .375 H&H was suitable for elephant..Johann said "it is if you can shoot" Add to that that Finn Aagard told me the .375 has probably killed more DG than all the other calibers combined, and I believe that is true..Another famous PH told me that the 45s and 50s were mostly Penis envy! I can't agree with that for the most part, but I got a good laugh out of his statement knowing that in a few cases its absolutly true..

If one is more comfortable with a 40 caliber or 50 caliber and can shoot it well then that is fine, but if one can shoot a 9.3x62 better, and is confident in his shooting ability then that is also fine..

For myself recoil bothers me in any big bore over a 450-400, 404 or 416, and most of my DG hunting was with these three calibers, but as I age I don't like being pushed around by them. I prefer to shoot the .375 and 9.3x62, and I'm comfortable and confident with that, always have been, but as a gun nut I liked using as many differnt calibers as I could.

Nobody tell the 8 buffalo I have shot with my .375's that I was undergunned the whole time...

I'm at 23 buffalo now, spread across 3 continents. I can't deny that the nine shot with a .375 are dead, but do know that the 11 shot with a .458 consistently travelled less distance before falling over. The difference may not be huge but the averages have convinced me.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I'm at 23 buffalo now, spread across 3 continents. I can't deny that the nine shot with a .375 are dead, but do know that the 11 shot with a .458 consistently travelled less distance before falling over. The difference may not be huge but the averages have convinced me.

That's probably why PH's tend to gravitate to the heavier rounds.

It all depends what century you are (physically or mentally) living in. For some reactionary types, DG calibres start with an 8.

I bought my CZ 416 Rigby in preparation for my buffalo hunt next Sept.

It certainly boots me a lot more. I can shoot it comfortably off hand but I need to practice more for accuracy. On the other hand I shoot my 9.3X62 very well and no issues what so ever. 5 shot rapid reload at 50 meters is 3" in the bull.

I am also getting CEB bullets for both rifles. My question is whether I should just use the 9.3 with CEBs and keep the 416 Rigby as a backup?

the 9.3 is a sometimes buffalo-legal working sister of the 338WinMag and both are similar to but slightly less than the 375H&H.

I think you made the right choice in getting the 416 for buffalo, eland, and their friends. Five calibre increase only helps as long as the velocity is maintained. So enjoy the practice.

If you are good with a 9.3, you should be the same with the 416. Just remember to alternate and shoot a 223 or 270 every seesion to keep your trigger pull honest. Dry-firing helps, too. On rapid fire, Three shots with two bolt runs is practical and ammo saving.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I bought my CZ 416 Rigby in preparation for my buffalo hunt next Sept.

It certainly boots me a lot more. I can shoot it comfortably off hand but I need to practice more for accuracy. On the other hand I shoot my 9.3X62 very well and no issues what so ever. 5 shot rapid reload at 50 meters is 3" in the bull.

I am also getting CEB bullets for both rifles. My question is whether I should just use the 9.3 with CEBs and keep the 416 Rigby as a backup?

Naki-

Remeber that the original factory spec on the 416 put a 400 gr @2250 fps, not 2400 as its loaded now. hence you can relaod to those specs and reduce recoil.

In addition if you are using a Non-Con like the CEB you can drop down in weight-its normal with the mono metals-
I used the 35 NC -350 solid CEB combo in 416 last year on buff and Elephant with excellent result.

personally I would go with the 325/350 CEBs at more velocity in your Rigby----I think you would be pleased with both apparent recoil and results--

SSR

Naki,

Sean makes a good point. I would not like to shoot my light .404 at the 2300-2400fps level as they are often loaded today and I found on big Asian buffalo that at 2200fps the .404 did everything asked of it.

You say "I need to practice more for accuracy". I take from this that you are either finding the recoil affecting your ability to shoot accurate or you are not comfortable at shooting the 416 too much because of the recoil.

In either case an option is to shoot cast which can be loaded as squib loads right up to almost full power loads and is a cheaper way to get in lots of practice.

Thanks guys.

The learning experience is really critical and I am trying to get the logic in my mind. trying to keep it simple and do the same thing again & again.

Firstly the 416 Rigby recoil does not bother me when I shoot off hand. I can shoot 20 round in 10 to 20 minutes & not suffer any pain or stiffness the next day.

The issue is accuracy at 50 & 100 meters. Shooting off the bench is a real beating & I start flinching and my shooting goes to pieces very quickly. I start getting tense and .... you get the picture.

I made up some shooting sticks. The first try last week was with rubber tubing. The sticks were stable but my hand was not comfortable. I shot ok at 50 meters - but 4" group was not enough. I was getting the odd flyer way off the bull.

I then built the sticks like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIf3a0ahtAU. I modified the set a bit like this

Works well. But today the weather was crap and blowing around.

I now have to settle on a technique. Resting my hand on the foam works but the actual sticks I use in Africa may not have this foam cushion.
I have been looking at Saeed's videos & I'll try to rest the rifle in the V and hold the fore end firmly in front of the stick.

Practice ..... & more practice.

Naki,

Here's a photo of me actually using shooting sticks in the field.



You can see that I am resting the rifle close to the magazine and holding the foreend with my left hand, while leaning into the rifle in anticipation of the recoil.

This is the position which worked well for me and I recommend it to you. I also recommend the three legged arrangement, in this case three light weight poles held together with a strip of rubber from an old inner tube.

Naki

I can appreciate what you are going through and this is going to be hard to control as in general once one starts to flinch and fear what comes next, it is very difficult to change. I don't use fear as a criticism, just a state where mind takes over from body.

Although I advocate we should be familiar with our rifles when used on dangerous game I think sometimes this gets over-rated where it is expected hundreds of rounds must be fired through ones DG rifle before even thinking of going hunting. I certainly did nothing of the sort before venturing off to Oz to slay a few buffalo but perhaps after hunting for twenty odd years from my early school days to my age at that time, and shooting hundreds of animals with a variety of rifles I had enough practice and familiarity with handling most any firearm to safely head off and mix it with buffalo.
Perhaps I was lucky so don't want to sound arrogant when saying too much practice may not be that necessary depending of course on one's experience in hunting.

I have shot my 404 off the bench numerous times with full power factory and reloads as well as cast loads up to around 1800fps with a 400grain bullet. I've never bothered to shoot off hand much and never off sticks at the range as I've practiced this enough in the field when hunting, the old movie clip of one of my shots on a bull buff show me using a forked tree as a rest.

The first time I ever shot my 404 when I bought it was when I was recovering from pinched neck muscle and I was very wary of the shot but it was just a big old heavy push when firing over the car roof. Crouched at the bench is harder but I just don't shoot to many at a time and have a Timney trigger which really does break like glass. Some days I shoot the 404 very well, others okay but always minute of buffalo. The target below is with cast bullets at 1800fps, a good solid push into the shoulder and does bruise a little if I fire off 10 or more in a sitting. I can get similar groups up to nearly same POI with a squib load of Unique powder and this is good easy shooting if one was wanting to practice off sticks or the likes just to get familiar with handling the rifle and the different shooting stances.

I wish you all the best in your trials, and tribulations (not too many of the latter I hope), and especially look forward to a hunt report after your trip to Africa. I plan to follow sometime in the next couple of years.

"Off the sticks" using a convenient tree fork, the .404 coming up in recoil and pushing my then slim frame back a bit, buffalo bull DRT and never moved a muscle.


.404 Jeffery with 350gr cast at 50m

Naki,

Before I went to Africa the first time, I never shot full loads through my .505 except for load development and zeroing. I shot hundreds of reduced lead bullet loads just getting the feel of the rifle. Walking in the woods on my property, I would spot a tree stump, square my body around toward it, mount the rifle to my shoulder and fire a shot at the center of mass.
Rocks, fence posts, all were targets. I soon got to where I could hit where I was looking.

The result was that in the game field I never noticed the recoil of my 8 3/4 pound rifle, shooting a 570 grain bullet at 2150 fps. Moreover, I put down everything I shot at with it, including elephant, buffalo and rhino.

You don't need to punish yourself with a rifle to learn to shoot it. I swage 300 grain jacketed pistol bullets down to .423" to shoot in my .404 Jeffery. I am reasonably sure there are at least cast bullets in .416" you could use for the same purpose. Unless you just enjoy getting battered around, there's no need at all to practice with full power loads.

xausa,

To me your picture looks like the sticks are adjusted way too low. in practice and in the field I like the sticks adjusted to where I am standing straight up to better roll with the recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
xausa,

To me your picture looks like the sticks are adjusted way too low. in practice and in the field I like the sticks adjusted to where I am standing straight up to better roll with the recoil.

If I were shooting in a rifle match, that is exactly what I would do, also. However, shooting at game, I prefer to "roll with the recoil" as little as possible, and with that particular rifle, my pre-64 Model 70 Winchester in .300 H&H Magnum, I could minimize the recoil to the point that I could actually see the impact of the bullet on the animal 200 yards away. In this case, the animal in question, an impala, went over with all four feet in the air.

I knew there was something I admired about you.

I also own an Old Model 70 in 300 H&H.

How much glass do you have on yours?

Rich

A couple things:

RCBS makes a great 360gr GC RFN for the .416s

I just bought a VZ-24 barreled action in 404J. Are you swaging down jacketed 300gr bullets for yours?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:


I also own an Old Model 70 in 300 H&H.

How much glass do you have on yours?

I just bought a VZ-24 barreled action in 404J. Are you swaging down jacketed 300gr bullets for yours?

My old Model 70 wears a 4X Lyman All-American Perma-Center, and yes, I do swage those 300 grain .44 Magnum jacketed pistol bullets down for my .404.