Well, I finally got to the range with the new stock on the 500 AccRel Nyati. We were mainly going to test my wife's new 375Ruger, but we wanted to see if the new Boyd's stock on the 500 accRel would allow it to show some accuracy potential.

The Boyd's stock was a pepper laminate with a montecarlo cheekpiece. The stock is relatively light and thin and designed for typical NorthAmerican deer rifles. I thought that it would make a great lightweight .510" buffalo stomper. The handle has a .25" bolt running transverse through the middle from the back of the tang towards the grip cap. Betweeen the tang screw and trigger well I epoxied a pin across the stock to protect against splitting. Under the barrel there is a CZ-styled barrel lug and I have built up a retaining lug in the barrel channel by epoxying a .25" cross bolt and glassbedding a receiver lug. See the following picture:



I felt that the stock would be strong enough.
I tried a first group with 90 grains H322 behind a GSC 450 grain HV. I was very unimpressed with a 3-4 inch vertical spread at 100 yards (5-power scope [Nikon Slughunter 1.65-5]). So I thought that I would try a load that previously showed some promise, 101 grains of H322 behind the 450gn GSC HV. Temperature was about 90F. Velocity was checked by TWO ProChronos. Differences in the machines averaged about 10 fps, which I think is pretty close. The load averaged 2635fps, corrected for the muzzle, which is about 6900 ftlbs.

However, only two shots were fired. The stock had cracked.



Recoil is brisk, but manageable and would make a great buffalo load. Is the stock salvagable?

The wooden lugreceiver in the stock moved backwards less than 1/16". The tang area had a chip but quite small and apparaently just a piece that was above the hole where the handle-bolt hole surfaced in the tang receiver area.

the boyd's stock comes from the factory with a cross bolt behind the receiver lug area. That apparently prevented a catastrophic cracking. Only the top flat portion of the wood retainer holding the receiver-lug cracked, as can be seen in the picture.

I am thinking that I can put a small crossbolt/pin in the stock that can anchor that top piece, something like a 1"square, thin wooden brownie. The sides of the retaining piece can be drilled out (like the cavity in a tooth) and epoxied when the whole wooden piece is bedded in place. The piece would be tapped back in place, of course, and bedded without the 1/16" overhang into the magazine area.

By the way, the barrel lug held. A tiny hairline crack is visible at the bottom of the retainaing epoxy (not visible in the picture). Once the receiving retainer is bedded, I will re-bed the barrel retainer. The barrel forearm crossbolt appears to have held and worked well.

Part of the problem appears to be the small size of the Ruger receiver lug. The lug is able to focus the force into the part of retaining piece that is in front of the magazine well and it then cracks and starts to pull away from the sides of the stock. Perhaps a new anchoring pin close to the surface of the wood where it meshes with the receiver should help to distribute the force through the sides of the stock and to prevent further cracking.

Asking Accurate Innovations to do a pepper laminate with their aluminum chassis would also solve the problem, but would end up costing $1200 with 4 panels of checkering. That may be money well spent, but it is close to the value of the hardware.

Meanwhile, I contemplate salvaging the second Boyd's. The first Boyd's also cracked in the handle after similarly giving way in the receiver lug area. The handle of the second stock seems sound. Consequently, the first stock needed to be replaced, but I'm thinking that this second one is salvagable.

Tanz,

Sorry to hear the stock cracked. Unfortunately it is a wood stock, though laminated, so it is susceptible to cracking/breaking.

I’d recommend repair the crack and add this stuff which ought to eliminate your issues…

1) Bedding Pillars – 080-000-007WB Ruger 77/M77 Mark II Bedding Pillars - $9.24 (set)
http://www.brownells.com/gunsm...pillars-prod357.aspx

quote:

Comments about BROWNELLS RUGER M77 BEDDING SLEEVES:

The rear pillar was just fine. The front pillar when placed properly on the recoil lug was too far forward causing the action screw to touch the rear inside of the pillar, and would not align properly within the stock. Solution: Center the front pillar which also aligns it properly in the stock, then fill in the gap between the pillar and the rear of the recoil lug with bedding material. Both pillars were intentionally long and required 30-40 thousands of shortening.

2) Cross Bolt – 2 @ - 874-005-000WB Talley Magnum Crossbolt - $5.83 (each) X2
http://www.brownells.com/rifle...sbolt-prod13113.aspx

3) Steel Bed Kit – 081-040-003WB Steel Bed Kit - $21.15 (kit)
http://www.brownells.com/gunsm...ed-kit-prod1048.aspx

These items ought to eliminate the stock issues.

I prepared my response before you'd opened this thread so I notice there are already cross bolts installed.

I still think the bedding sleeves and plus the full steel bedding will should help.

But two quick questions, "What did you have the front action screw torqued at? And what did you have the rear action screw torqued at?"

torque on the screws was tight, but not with a torque-gauged screwdriver.

On the Boyd's crossbolt: it is embedded in the stock and it sits lower than the lip-area that the recoil lug engages. I'm thinking that I can run a pin through that area just under the top surface of the stock behind the receiver lug recess. Maybe I could run two cross-pins in parallel, probably 1/8" threaded bolt.

If I do, the stock may look like it has the measles with 6 epoxy circles where cross-bolts/cross-pins are epoxied in place:
1) in the forearm area for the barrel lug
2) Boyd, low behind recoil lug area
3) pin, high, behind recoil lug area
4) pin, high, behind recoil lug area and before magazine well
5) Boyd, low, behind magazine well
6) pin, high, behind trigger well and before tang retaining screw.
plus
7) hidden bolt inside handle, drilled down from the inside end of the tang area.

Also, I am suspecting that the Boyd's "bolts" may only be drillings of epoxy, without a metal bolt inside. If so, my pins up higher above the recoil "bolt" may provide the only metal in the crucial receiver lug recoil area.

for reference, here is a picture of the minor chip behind the tang area. I consider it minor, because underneath the chip the area was hollow, being the place where the 1/4" hole was drilled for the handle bolt.



The grey crosspin between the tang screw area and the trigger well is also visible.

My consolation:

The Hogue stock still works and seems to absorb the recoil well. It has an epoxy forearm receiver lug. I have shaped the handle so that my hand now lays back in a more classic line and the Ruger dogleg bolt no longer slaps my trigger finger. So I have a backup.

Maybe next week I will be able to test its accuracy. I've never tested the Hogue stock with the new Nyati throat of the 500 AccRel. I'm pretty demanding on accuracy, because a hunter never knows when they may want to try a face shot on a 70-yard buffalo. Field position, trees, and anthills already enlarge the potential impact area without adding 2-3 inches all around from a blunderbus that hasn't been accurized.

Here’s the action torque information that I identified for the Ruger M77:

quote:

The sequence and torques are:
1. The diagonal screw, torque to 50-90 inch-pounds.
2. The aft trigger guard screw, 30-50 inch pounds.
3. The forward trigger guard screw, also to 30-50 inch pounds.
The torque values will have an effect on barrel harmonics. Ruger uses the upper limits when assembling. But some experimenting may be helpful if you want to tweek the lst little bit of accuracy out of the rifle

**Sometimes just adjusting the torque on the diagonal screw will make all the difference as far as group size. I usually do it in 5 in-lb increments. Just remember it's 35 in-lbs minimum and 90 in-lbs maximum on the diagonal screw; 30-50 on the trigger guard screws.

Hope that helps…

Also I’ve read where two arrows shafts – carbon or aluminum – have been bedded in the forend of a flexible synthetic stock to stabilize it. Basically two channels were hogged out below and along the sides of the barrel channel, the arrow shafts (cut to proper length) would then be glass bedded into these channels and then the barrel channel would be re-glass bedded.

Here’s a link to photographs and description of the process:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_5/230395_.html&page=2
Go down to a 9/15/2008 post…

You might also PM Jefferoso, he may have some recommendations for saving your stock.

It can be repaired.
You could even discard the broken off wood in the primary recoil lug area and rebuild it completely with laid-in all thread and MarineTex, Steelbed, or JB Weld epoxy.
I basically did the same once when I converted a short action Brown Precision M70 stock into a long action one for a 404 Jeffery: The infamous "African sheep Rifle."

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

The big remaining questions for bedding a laminate Boyd's stock would be how much of the recoil-lug bridge material to remove when bedding?

416Tanzan: You can remove it all if you rebuild it wirh steel allthread crossbolts and epoxy.
I was passing through Montana, on a drive to Alaska and stopped at a gunshow in Billings. For $150 I bought a slightly used Brown Precision stock meant for a short action M70. What a find! Already painted and had recoil pad and molded-in checkering.
I converted it to a long action M70 with a hacksaw and Dremel tool, files and chisels.
I extended the magazine well forward by cutting out the "bridge" between the magazine well and the primary action recoil lug recess.
Then I drilled through the side walls of the stock and inserted a 3/8" diameter allthread at the usual location side-to-side ahead of the newly lengthened magazine well, and epoxied it in place.
Then I laid in a 1/4" crossbolt ahead of and higher than the first.
Then I finished with a 1/8" diameter all thread laid in very close to, behind the primary action recoil lug, very close to the bottom side of the action. All covered and hidden by epoxy bedding. Acraglass, IIRC.
The external surfaces and some internals were covered with and built up with JB Weld.
The external JB Weld is my textured-camo pattern, and it hides where I drilled through the sides of the stock, fore and aft of the new magazine well:
.308WCF stock became a 404 Jeffery stock, and it is accurate.



And whether or not to clamp down the action with the lug screw or leave the screw free floating without the bottom metal hinge during the bedding and curing of the epoxy? Potentially, I could bed the forearm barrel-lug first and then use the rear action acrew and barrel-lug bedding with the barrel taped in place in order to bed a tension-free action-lug area. Afterwards, with a tension-free action lug and barrel-lug, I could even add a pressure point at the muzzle-end of the forearm, perhaps hanging a 3-lb weight on the barrel while the barreled action is hanging upside down. Such barrel pressure would mean that the actionlug screw would end up resisting that pressure. (The Ruger has so little area behind and along the magazine that I would ensure that erything between the action-lug wood bridge and the rear-action screw is free floated. The little wood platform on the rear-action screw would be left, of course, in order to stabilize all of the bedding processes. The tang will also be cut back 0.05" if not already cleared.) All of this work would be done this coming Oct/Nov. Things move slowly for me and when dealing with a wildcat.

I like to bed the primary (action) recoil lug and the secondary (barrel) recoil lug and the barrel between the two with full contact in one step (crossbolt behind the barrel lug too, of course), along with a dab of bedding on top of the rear pillar too,
with stock in a paddeded vise and sandbags resting on top of the barreled action to get overflow of epoxy.
Do the bottom metal and any cosmetic work subsequently.
Any up-pressure on the free-floated barrel (muzzleward of the barrel lug) can be done as you say with upside-down, horizontal rifle and weight hung from barrel, and a little dab of epoxy inside the barrel channel at forend tip,
only if still looking for accuracy improvement.

Lack of full glass bedding of the primary recoil lug is the main oversight here.
Also standing out here is that there was a hollow under the area where a chip popped at the tang.
That hollow should have been filled solid with epoxy and steel allthread,
right up to where the rear pillar should have been installed, all should be solid, no hollows, except for the hole for the action screw in the middle of the pillar.
Was tang properly relieved?

Yes, by all means a hidden cross bolt immediately behind primary recoil lug, as well as behind the secondary lug on the barrel.

The visible cross bolts with heads to compress sides of stock:
Primary recoil lug area, and rear one in the tiny web between magazine well and trigger well.

Glass bed everywhere.
Reinforce front of magazine box.
All of above has been done to this Boyds' laminate stock on a 500 Mbogo:

Thanks, RIP.

there are several ideas here for me to think about.

Yes, in hindsight I agree that leaiving the primary action lug area raw was faulty.

On the tang 'hollow', I should clarify. At the back of the tang the height from the flat of the action mating surface to the top of the wood at the tang tip had a hollow recess that might have housed half a match head. That was intended to protect the wood from the tang. But when the primary recoil lug punched its way into the wood retaining area, the tang jumped that little hollow and caused a bulging chip. Nothing else budged because under that chip is where the hidden bolt came to a stop. I merely stopped the bolt as below the mating surface of the tang screw and action because I didn't want the hidden bolt to inadvertantly create instability by touching the action.

anyway, I hope to fix up the main lug this weekend, but without a pillar. Ruger pillars are complicated and one of the main purposes of a pillar is to protect against compression, something that is less critical with a laminate stock.

I busted a few "mortal" stocks with the B&M rifles........... even laminated, all heavy bedded, and two even cross bolted, One example below.....





The easy solution to all this.........

Accurate Innovations................




Of course Tanz, I know, its too expensive, and I know you will not do this, however there are others out there that will.

All busted stock problems solved permanently..............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I busted a few "mortal" stocks with the B&M rifles........... even laminated, all heavy bedded, and two even cross bolted, One example below.....





The easy solution to all this.........

Accurate Innovations................




Of course Tanz, I know, its too expensive, and I know you will not do this, however there are others out there that will.

All busted stock problems solved permanently..............

Michael

+1 ... my pepper laminate stock from Accurate Innovations can take the beating from my 500 Acc Rel (.25" throat version)

Tanz,

OK, you almost got it licked.
Repair the tang chip, install pillars, rebuild the primary recoil lug area,
and bed the primary recoil lug area.
Through-stock crossbolts also would be a good idea, but hidden ones at proper locations will do if they are allthread embedded in epoxy,
with no hollows or voids anywhere.

I consider the laminates no more resistant to compression or crack-resistant than walnut.
Each individual lamination is wood that is not fully permeated by epoxy. Wood can crack.

With pillars (or an Accurate innovations or B&C Medalist bedding block) you can torque those action screws to 65 inch-pounds.
That surely helps prevent the barreled action from getting any run at breaking the stock.

The B&C Medalist stocks have the one-piece bedding block/endoskeleton that extends from forend tip to butt,
hidden except in bedding block area.

I was wondering if AI has a rod throught the grip area to prevent this sort of breakage,
or do they just rely on proper grain orientation?:

quote:

I was wondering if AI has a rod throught the grip area to prevent this sort of breakage,
or do they just rely on proper grain orientation?:

Yes, there is a steel rod through the grip area...... Used to be Titanium, I suppose that got expensive.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

I was wondering if AI has a rod throught the grip area to prevent this sort of breakage ...
or do they just rely on proper grain orientation?:

Yes, there is a steel rod through the grip area...... Used to be Titanium, I suppose that got expensive.

Then AI is a best alternative to the $300-$450 B&C (Medalist or CZ Kevlar stock), whichever is available for your action.
My aesthetic sensibilities would accept any of those ... or a properly bedded and reinforced Boyds laminate.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
...
Then AI is a best alternative to the $300-$450 B&C (Medalist or CZ Kevlar stock), whichever is available for your action.
...

Well, an AI stock with wood dense enough wood to handle the recoil will run him $2,500+ depending on the wood.

I wonder if McMillan could be an option. That would run him between $300-$600.

quote:

Well, an AI stock with wood dense enough wood to handle the recoil will run him $2,500+ depending on the wood.

Thats mine and your price... HEH...... But we like lots of extras...... I had a plain jane english with standard pattern
checkering, no thrills, no ebony tips, standard everything done for a 500 MDM and it ran $1200.00, I have a couple of the peppermint
laminated that I did put ebony tips and cheek piece on for around $900, and you could probably do with the extras on that and maybe be $650-$700 or so, MAYBE, I don't speak for them of course nor have anything to do with prices....

One of the good bargains you can get from AI is some of the stocks they have on hand and need to move... I have bought a few like that
very reasonable.........

But, when it comes to wood, you can spend as much as you want, and $2000-$2500 gets a pretty decent stick of wood with nice hand checkered various patterns........ Still even at this, its a bargain compared to other stocks I have checked on and they don't have the aluminum chassis or the pin going through the grip area, and on top of that does not look as good either.......... We are getting some first class work from AI in my opinion, compared to what I have seen........

M

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
...
Then AI is a best alternative to the $300-$450 B&C (Medalist or CZ Kevlar stock), whichever is available for your action.
...

Well, an AI stock with wood dense enough wood to handle the recoil will run him $2,500+ depending on the wood.

I wonder if McMillan could be an option. That would run him between $300-$600.

Yes,
I have McMillan stocks on two .500/.338LM Improved rifles (12.7x68mm Magnum, aka 49-10 or "50 bateleur").
One used to be a 500A2 from about 1998, shot it a lot, hunted Alaska some, got rebarreled after 2010, still going strong, and still looks like new.
You can order a "magnum fill" and reinforce the hell out of them however you want too, like gilding the lilly.
Get it made to specified LOP and pick your moulded-in color with checkering while you wait your 3-6 months for a custom beauty.

Tanz,

I know the stock trouble you’re having is a real pita ‘cause you needed it ready to take overseas this year.

Personally I’ve not been an advocate of laminated stocks unless the wood utilized is known for its strength to begin with. And a properly done laminated stock utilizing quality wood is not inexpensive.

That said, Ron has given some great recommendations that’ll only take a manual effort to accomplish and will strengthen the laminated stock to handle the recoil of your 500 AR Nyati.

Here are some more costly alternatives to repairing your laminated stock or strengthening your Hogue synthetic stock:

AI does have one Ruger MKII Long Action stock listed ‘in-stock”.

quote:

70016 Myrtle stock for Ruger MKII long action; ebony tip; steel gripcap; fishscale checkering,
Non-structural crack — guaranteed by Accurate Innovations – Price – TBA

Here's the link:
http://aigunstocks.com/in-stock/

B&C only offers their Carbelite stock for the Ruger M77 LA, and it will require fitting as well as perhaps glass bedding. Midway has it in stock for $210
http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...ong-action-synthetic
Unfortunately it appears that bedding pillars and recoil lug reinforcement are factory options that require a delay in delivery.

Hogue offers a full bedding block stock – price runs $280 to $330. Here’s a link to their website page:
http://www.hoguestore.com/inde...=index&cPath=653_675

sorry for the break, and rip posted a great pic for a guildeline - it doesn't look like you bedded the front action lug, which is tough to get right.

the hogue stocks --- the pillered one flexes ALOT in a 500 accrel .. i havent tried the better one ...

sorry for the break... i built my stock machine over breaking stocks

Edit--It was Richard's stocks with voids

Having sanded and finished Boyds laminate stocks the material has voids, chips when being inletted and the plys do not seem to be well impregnated with resin.
Stocks made from material know to have come from Rutland have much better properties and finish nicer with fewer coats.

Mark

I have a couple of Rutland Laminated Thumbholes one on the 4bore

and one on 700HE, And they hold, But hard to find reasonable.

So mostly now I mainly forgo woods and laminate for various

585HEs and setup Hogue and similiar with integral bedding and pillars.

And nice part butts are hollow to add weight or reducers; And I found

putting in lead and epoxy we get too much weight, so the boy being in

computer stuff I use rubber coated mouse balls(got bushels), with piece dense

dow foam under recoil pad holding them in tight... Weight is perfect and

rubber coating there is no rattle, noise, works like a million.Ed

Ed,
That sounds very practical. How much weight does a butt full of mouse balls add to the rifle?
I never thought about the structure of a mouse ball.
Is it a rubber-coated steel ball?

"Butt full of mouse balls."

As you were.

Where to find a peck of mouse balls?

For best confidence in stock for Ruger 500 ARN: Get the Hogue stock for "Ruger Long Action Mark II/Hawkeye" with bedding block/chassis, and with barrel channel big enough for said barrel.

Bed the recoil lug of the barrel into the forearm, cut through chassis there (this has also been done to good effect on B&C Medalist stocks)
and pile in the epoxy bedding there, plus a dab at the primary recoil lug bearing surface for best accuracy potential.

After the bedding cures, torque action screws to 60-65 inch-pounds and go shooting.
The Hogue stocks for Ruger have either bedding pillars or full bedding block chassis in the better one.
Either one can be torqued to 60-65 in-lbs.

RIP- Usually can add about 3 lbs to average hollow butt.
They are steel with rubber coating. AND The regular size ones
I also use for 2 ball loads in 8bore, shave rubber down gets
good fit.Great in smoothbore..

And some real older bigger ones use for 2 ball loads in 4bore.
These I got to find a lot more of.......

Those Hogue stocks of both kinds are on Gun Broker at times,
and sold at LG Outdoors and WholesaleHunter.
Both of these guys are GB sellers.Ed

I have a Hogue stock at the moment that serves as a back-up. The big problem was the vertical angle on the grip left my trigger finger too close to the dogleg bolt handle of the Ruger. I've sanded that stock's grip cap area so that I get a more classic lie for the hand. But I've not sure that I would want to pay $300 just to start cutting up a new stock.

Meanwhile,
I'm about to put in a .25" allthread in the main lug area,
and I've just added an 8ox mercury reducer to the butt, which should ameliorate the recoil impulse a tad.

On laminated wood:

I understand that different laminates would be of different quality.

However, with Boyd's and Rutland, it appears that we are dealing with the same thing:

"Boyd's Gunstocks has been using Rutland Plywood's Stratabond laminate material for over 20 years. As a custom designer, Stratabond's unlimited color combinations can satisfy all of my customer's tastes. As a business owner, having a partner like RPC, with its combination of high quality materials and superior service keeps our business running smoothly""

Good to know Boyd's laminates are Rutland.

That takes care of peace of mind.

Forget the Hogue, I don't like the grip shape either, or the rubberized coating.
I surely like the looks and feel of the Boyd's laminate better than a Hogue.

Rebuild that pepper laminate Boyd's stock.
But don't ever shoot any laminate stock again without the primary recoil lug bedded.
Go and sin no more, Grasshopper.

Your Hogue stock with pillars would be a good donor to harvest the pillars from to put in the Boyd's laminate.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Good to know Boyd's laminates are Rutland.

That takes care of peace of mind.

Forget the Hogue, I don't like the grip shape either, or the rubberized coating.
I surely like the looks and feel of the Boyd's laminate better than a Hogue.

Rebuild that pepper laminate Boyd's stock.
But don't ever shoot any laminate stock again without the primary recoil lug bedded.
Go and sin no more, Grasshopper.

Your Hogue stock with pillars would be a good donor to harvest the pillars from to put in the Boyd's laminate.

On pillars, I am not a fan because the Ruger ones need a little extra tinking and grinding. In this case I feel more confident with faux-pillars. Let the goo fill up the receiver/lug end of the lug screw and then do a secondary bedding where the rest of the channel has a column-side built/set into the retaining hinge piece on the bottom side of the rifle. Also, the Hogue stock and pillars serve as a backup stock, something I'm becoming more and more fond of. Wouldn't want to poke holes in a life-vest. And I've reshaped the particular grip area. Even though the Hogue is not esthetically pleasing it is functional and I've already tested it for finger clearance with the dogleg Ruger bolt.

Hopefully, the repentant recoil lug will be born again and shooting in a couple of days. We'll need to see if it holds.

I've tried to make sure that the cross-allthreads in the retaining area were without voids, but its hard to know exactly what is inside the tunnels. I put a 1/4" through the main part of the retaining piece, and then a 4/40 (.11") allthread higher and closer to the recoil mating surface. tonight I will drill all along the retainer edges and the area for receiving the main lug so that it gets a solid, full bedding and epoxy fills out beyond the crackways.

Since the forearm-barrel lug is already bedded, I will bed the main lug without any pressure. The barrel lug and the rear tang screw will hold the barreled action in place. The main lug screw will be screwed in place to prevent epoxy from getting into the main lug screw hole, but it will not be torqued down under any force at all.

quote:

On pillars, I am not a fan because the Ruger ones need a little extra tinking and grinding.

Actually I believe that's an across the board requirement to assure correct fit regardless of action.

Well, I test fired the stock and new bedding.

Here is a picture of the bedding:



Everything looked good until I shot a group. The 3-shot group with the boyd's stock was 7".
Horrible.

The 3-shot group with the Hogue stock was 4" with the vertical spread.

Loads were 98 grains H4895 with 450grain Woodleighs. Velocity was 2560fps, averaged. Substituting a different bullet might make a reasonable hunting load at 2550-2575fps. It's only 6500ftlbs. But it needs to be accurate.

Two questions and potential problems arise.

1. Little tiny featherlines can be seen along the left side of the recoil area. They are too small and thin to call cracks, but one wonders what will happen on further firing?
The bedding itself looked good and the allthreads should make it sound.

2. Accuracy may be a problem.
I'm starting to wonder if the basic design is a problem. The barreled action has a CZ-style lug on the barrel. The lug mates with an epoxy retainer built over an allthread crosspiece in the forearm. HOWEVER, there is no screw that attaches to the barrel like CZ does.

2a. Do I need to fix the lug to the forearm with a screw?

2b. Should I cut back the retainer and 'free float' the barrel? This might make for inherent accuracy but it may overlod the main retaining area and break the stock once more.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Two questions and potential problems arise.

1. Little tiny featherlines can be seen along the left side of the recoil area. They are too small and thin to call cracks, but one wonders what will happen on further firing?
The bedding itself looked good and the allthreads should make it sound.


I assume this is on the left inside surface of the primary recoil lug recess area, and not visible on the outside of the stock.
You sould have epoxy covering everything there and not possibly be able to see "tiny featherlines."
You should not scoff at pillars, especially since Ruger pillars are readily available. Read again Jim's postings about those pillars, above.

2. Accuracy may be a problem.
I'm starting to wonder if the basic design is a problem. The barreled action has a CZ-style lug on the barrel. The lug mates with an epoxy retainer built over an allthread crosspiece in the forearm. HOWEVER, there is no screw that attaches to the barrel like CZ does.

2a. Do I need to fix the lug to the forearm with a screw?

No. It is not necessary.

2b. Should I cut back the retainer and 'free float' the barrel? This might make for inherent accuracy but it may overlod the main retaining area and break the stock once more.

The barrel should be free-floating only forward of the secondary recoil lug on the barrel.
You should have full contact, tight bedding from primary action recoil lug to secondary barrel recoil lug,
and all internal surfaces mating with steel should be covered with epoxy bedding, so you will not have a chance to see any "tiny featherlines" there.
The 500 Mbogo so bedded IN A BOYD'S LAMINATE STOCK (my rifle pictured above) did this:


It shoots much better than that with 10 grains less of same powder, and using Dacron filler.
Will post that target if I can find it:

105 grains Benchmark+ 5 grains Dacron filler
450-grain GSC HV
2654 fps
25" barreled 500 Mbogo

You might try that for an accuracy load, without the filler, worked up from 10% less, in the smaller 500 ARN.

Well, I tried a thick paper shimmy on barrel lug island out to the forearm tip.

I'll do further epoxy later.

Meanwhile, the shim seems to work.

Here is today's test group at 100 yards.



Finally, something huntable.
The test bullets were Woodleighs, to save some money.
2605 avg velocity (2600,2605,2610).
100 grains H322
group 1.1" at 100 yards
more later.

Tanz,

It's starting to come together... Congrats!

Thank you, Capoward.

Yes,it appears that some restraint on the barrel is necessary for accuracy in this cartridge, at least when it has a forearm barrel lug. Maybe I'll try bedding the forearm of the Hogue, too, and see if it can shoot some tight groups.

Meanwhile on the Boyds stock, after pulling the stock off it now appears that there are two areas of growth in fizzures. The area between the magazine well and the trigger well has a trigger guard screw hole and a Boyds original buried cross-reenforcement. Nevertheless, two pieces of vertical laminate have little 1 mm 'z's marching up the laminate, threatening to become real cracks. At the back of the retaining piece there are now three such cases of vertical-z fizzures following a laminate line up vertically. One of them has moved backward a couple thousands of an inch, at least enough to feel with a fingernail, actual movement rearward. So the crossbolts are holding, but not enough to prevent pressure fizzures from forming at the same time.

So does one do a major excavation around the main recoil area allthread-crossbolts and re-bed? It would be pretty major if one needed to rip out all the places where the tiny fizzure marks were occurring.

For clarification, the feathlines mentioned in a previous post were lines that showed up on the surface of the epoxy-bed under the action behind the main lug. They are now slightly more visible after the fizzures lines have appeared at the back of that area, facing into the magaziner well.

Or does one just buy a new Boyds and start over?
I called Boyds and because the last stock was purchsed 9 months ago, not within 90 days, and altered in a major way( ), there is nothing that they can offer except a new stock. I suspect that this is a situation that they cannot back up, because if I shoot their stock without major alteration it will crack again. My only hope to make the stock work is to do the bedding BEFORE producing little fizzures crisscrossing the main retaining area. Another problem is that the checkpiece is a tad on the short side as one lengthens the length of pull. (For reference, I'm one of those using 5" eye-relief, so my head position is more vertical and less scrunched forward than some shooters. Works great on hogback 416 CZ's, and give a pretty full cheekweld on the montecarlo Boyds piece in the 500 ARN.


At least I know that the barreled action will be able to shoot when everything gets sorted out. Maybe I'll get the Hogue stock to shoot, too, by bedding the forearm channel in contact with the barrel and not just the barrel lug retainer.

Tanz,

You have a couple of emails...

Use the current Boyds stock to work out everything required to keep it together under recoil. Then if it looks really ugly and you want to replace it you'll know everything required to keep a new stock in one piece. Or you might decide 'ol ugly' works pretty darn good, and buff won't care anyway, and keep it.

Happy Father's Day everyone...

Above is a Boyd's walnut stock for a .408 CT (MRC PH) that has had this treatment, by Rusty McGee, gunsmith:
Hidden allthread in the primary recoil lug area, a cold-rolled steel rod in the long axis of the wrist, from grip cap to rear pillar,
front and rear pillars and full Marine-tex bedding from tang to forend tip.
There is no secondary recoil lug on the barrel, none needed.
The rear, visible crossbolt is in the web between magazine well and trigger well, did not allow another hidden allthread there.

As delivered with 2 visible crossbolts, recoil pad, checkered and sort of finished, the stock weighed 2.5 pounds exactly.
It weighed more after the steel, epoxy, pillars, Brockman forend-tip sling base, and a polyurethane finish.
Apparently the original stock finish was easy to strip off.

Wrist rod was heavy enough to perfectly balance the rifle, on front action screw. Wrist rod cover-up:

Tanz416- I have built a few laminated stocks that have never cracked under way more power than your generating. First are you using a proper barrel mounted recoil lug steel bedded into the stock? It needs to be bedded with the rear section of the lug making firm contact with the steel bed preferably just behind a section of steel rod. I like a 1/2 inch or bearing surface on that lug if possible.Second I bed the front action recoil lug again with steelbed but with at least the first 1 to 1.5 inches of the barrel also bedded. Remove wood if necessary to get that bedding under the barrel. On the rear of the action I remove wood all around and under the tang and then steel bed the tang and rear of the action in place. Cross bolts and a angled piece of all thread through the grip again steel bedded in place. Make sure your stock does not contact the mag box internally.
Bed the gun in two steps. Front recoil lug first or you'll never get the action out of the stock, then bed the front action recoil lug and the tang second. I also pillar bed the action screws both front and rear.
Remember if the tang has any possible movement under recoil it will act like a rail splitter and eventually spit the stock. Creating no possibility of movement is your goal. Hope this is clear.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Tanz416- I have built a few laminated stocks that have never cracked under way more power than your generating. First are you using a proper barrel mounted recoil lug steel bedded into the stock? It needs to be bedded with the rear section of the lug making firm contact with the steel bed preferably just behind a section of steel rod. I like a 1/2 inch or bearing surface on that lug if possible.Second I bed the front action recoil lug again with steelbed but with at least the first 1 to 1.5 inches of the barrel also bedded. Remove wood if necessary to get that bedding under the barrel. On the rear of the action I remove wood all around and under the tang and then steel bed the tang and rear of the action in place. Cross bolts and a angled piece of all thread through the grip again steel bedded in place. Make sure your stock does not contact the mag box internally.
Bed the gun in two steps. Front recoil lug first or you'll never get the action out of the stock, then bed the front action recoil lug and the tang second. I also pillar bed the action screws both front and rear.
Remember if the tang has any possible movement under recoil it will act like a rail splitter and eventually spit the stock. Creating no possibility of movement is your goal. Hope this is clear.-Rob

Thanks, Rob.
Yes, there already is a barrel lug on the rifle. It is cut into a CZ-style barrel-island and by memory seems longer than 1/2" though is only about 1/8-3/16" max height at the middle of the arc.

A few days ago I was able to show the stock to Capo who immeadiately suggested redoing all the bedding and digging deep into the wood around the allthreads in order to get rid of the feathercracks. They will only get worse and ruin any chance of accuracy. The worse that can happen is that I will get some practice for one more new stock version. And I may be able to salvage this stock. Unfortunately, my schedule is such that I have no idea when I might get the time to work on it, since I am once again separated from the rifle. Hazards of modern living.

Since I still have the Hogue stock, I think that I will bed its forearm from the main lug to the forearm lug and then include a faint pressure point
on the tip. It seems that the barrel of this set up needs some support in order to achieve accuracy. Whether that is the result of the unanchored barrel-lug island moving around or flexibility of the stock, I can't say for sure. But the compromised laminated stock only printed a nice group after artificially providing forearm pressure and bedding with a piece of thick paper from the island to forearm tip. This project has gone through more iterations than I wished, but it has been interesting and someday may get to taste its own buffalo.

I have never had any luck with a fully bedded barrel( from lug to forearm. I've never needed any up pressure on any barrel other than featherlight ones. I think you will be most successful if you bed the barrel with 1-1.5 only as I described.Free float the rest of the barrel. My first CZ .600ok was built exactly as described and I probably have over 2k rounds through it. This procedure has worked for me on every big bore I ever built. I would replace the CZ forward barrel lug with a 1/2x 1/2x 3/4 piece of steel that is machined with a fly cutter to exactly match your barrel profile. Solder and screw it into place. Those are the best forward lugs I have ever worked with. Bed the lug so that only the rear face contacts the bedding with no contact on the bottom or sides. Don't be afraid to hog out lots of wood and replace it with Brownells steel bed. Pay attention to the tang and pillar bed the action while your at it. If it can't move it can't crack. Rob