the death of the .375 Ruger

01 January 2007, 19:58

Tez338

quote:
Originally posted by vapodog:
Cut the deck anyway you like it......there's only one way to shoot it.....and that's to buy ammo from Hornady.....no one else makes it and the brass and dies are not available.

In the world I live in, $65 a box of 20 kills a gun!!!

Ooooohhhhh that's going to hurt sales

01 January 2007, 20:09

Rick R

Hornady and Ruger are really moving fast on this cartridge. I'd say you'll be able to buy brass and dies for your dearly beloved by Valentine's day.

01 January 2007, 20:12

vapodog

quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy P Coaltrain:
Hornady has the 376 steyr dies, the 375 Rem Ultra Mag, the 325 WSM dies, I would hope they have dies for the 375 Ruger in a reasonable period of time??

No doubt they will......I agree

quote:
Don't you think it is just a bit early in the game to predict the death of the cartridge?? I am sure time will cure those perceived problems of expensive ammo.

True...you're right here....but it's not too early to predict my buying behavior.....I won't pay that for ammo! It's not reasonable IMO!

quote:
Surely Hornady or someone else will sell brass when the cartridge becomes readily available.

Well...possibly but no one will enter a dead market and IMO this is now priced to not sell.

quote:
416 rem mag... factory stuff goes for anything from $80 up

Loaded with regular cup and core bullets?

There is a saving grace here....if the product don't sell because of ammo cost the cost will come down as economics dictates.....eventually a point of equilibrium will be reached.

Don't misunderstand me here.....I'm not blaming Hornady for their pricing at all.....just saying that the number of fish one catches is very dependent on the bait and this seems to be out of reach for a very lot of folks.

The real value of this round isn't as a replacement for the 375 H&H...it's as a substitute for the 338 Magnum IMO. That's where the buyers will come from to make this round a big success.....but....
oh well.....time will tell....

I see a very interesting poker game here and it'll be fun watching to see who flinches.....first!!!

01 January 2007, 21:19

Slatts

I think this cartridge has some real potential. Just because only expensive factory loaded ammo is currently available will not kill sales in my opinion. Many of the buyers of large bores like this are taking them to Africa or Alaska and an $80 box of ammo is not going to dissuade that group. Heck, I saw a gent buy two boxes of Federal 416 Rigby yesterday at $120/box.

Economically it makes a lot more sense to reload for these larger calibers, but I'm guessing that mostly factory fodder is and will continue to be going down the tube.

01 January 2007, 21:24

djpaintles

Hornady 458 Lott ammo is just as expensive. Brass for reloading on the other hand is a lot more reasonable. I'll treat it just like I did my 458 Lott's and 416 Remington, I'll buy 1 box of factory ammo for comparisons sake and reload the rest......................DJ

01 January 2007, 21:36

vapodog

.458 Lott is $98 a box at Hornady and 450/400 is $101 per 20.....

416 Rigby is $97 as well.....

Maybe they don't expect sales to be high on the 375 Ruger...in which case the ammo is priced accordingly to other low volume ammo.

This said, it takes the round out of the big game category and places it in the DG category as the competition for plains game and other big game will stay with the lesser rounds like the .338 mags etc.

And, of course, Hornady isn't exactly loading the round with the DG bullets many would like.

01 January 2007, 21:44

surestrike

Jesus Christo guys!

Wouldn't you agree that this is a major case of premature epostulation over nothing!

The brass and dies are coming. Give it ten seconds would you?

You guys are like a bunch of kids on Christmas morning all a twiter because you don't have the right batteries for your new toy. Give it a second and let mom go to the store and get some.

And when the brass and dies do become available you can load it with any darn bullet you want. So exactley what is the problem again?

01 January 2007, 22:45

RIP

quote:
Originally posted by surestrike:
Jesus Christo guys!

Wouldn't you agree that this is a major case of premature epostulation over nothing!

The brass and dies are coming. Give it ten seconds would you?

You guys are like a bunch of kids on Christmas morning all a twiter because you don't have the right batteries for your new toy. Give it a second and let mom go to the store and get some.

And when the brass and dies do become available you can load it with any darn bullet you want. So exactley what is the problem again?

Surestrike,
Spot on and funny as hell!

01 January 2007, 23:09

Yale

Ladies and Gentlemen:

If the market timing is right, then this little number will sell, both the rifle and the cartridge. Both Hornady and Ruger are run by fairly astute people in my opinion. I have had few if any problems with their products.

I'm sure that Charles Newton's ghost presently is jumping up and down with glee, singing, "I told you so, I designed the best cartridges 100 years ago, and now someone is catching on." And I for one will buy the best designed cartridge brass in 100 years, also.

The cost of the ammunition is miniscule for essentially a plains game and dangerous game rifle.

Chris Bemis

01 January 2007, 23:30

308Sako

This talk of ammoflation is going to make me puke. I am so glad I brought into the classic .375 H&H years ago and still have several lifetimes worth of quality ammunition.

01 January 2007, 23:31

vapodog

quote:
Originally posted by Yale:
Ladies and Gentlemen:

If the market timing is right, then this little number will sell, both the rifle and the cartridge. Both Hornady and Ruger are run by fairly astute people in my opinion. I have had few if any problems with their products.

I'm sure that Charles Newton's ghost presently is jumping up and down with glee, singing, "I told you so, I designed the best cartridges 100 years ago, and now someone is catching on." And I for one will buy the best designed cartridge brass in 100 years, also.

The cost of the ammunition is miniscule for essentially a plains game and dangerous game rifle.

Chris Bemis

Yale,
does this mean you have ordered several boxes?

01 January 2007, 23:43

RIP

Ammo might be here tomorrow I am told:

www.whittakerguns.com

Darrell does sell guns so cheap that he has to make a little money on the ammo sales. We'll see what he charges.

01 January 2007, 23:54

Canuck

quote:
Originally posted by RIP:
quote:
Originally posted by surestrike:
Jesus Christo guys!

Wouldn't you agree that this is a major case of premature epostulation over nothing!

The brass and dies are coming. Give it ten seconds would you?

You guys are like a bunch of kids on Christmas morning all a twiter because you don't have the right batteries for your new toy. Give it a second and let mom go to the store and get some.

And when the brass and dies do become available you can load it with any darn bullet you want. So exactley what is the problem again?

Surestrike,
Spot on and funny as hell!

Agreed! I felt the need to say something...but surestrike said it all.

Cheers,
Canuck

02 January 2007, 00:11

Dave Bush

RIP, I am curious to find out what you think about the recoil. I think the cartridge is interesting but I am not sure I am on board with the concept of adding 150-200 fps to the velocity of the .375 H&H and then reducing the weight of the rifle by a couple of pounds. I am anxious to hear what you think after you shoot it.

Dave

Dave
DRSS
Chapuis 9.3X74
Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL
Krieghoff 500/.416 NE
Krieghoff 500 NE

"Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer"

"If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition).

02 January 2007, 00:20

ALF

02 January 2007, 00:24

RMiller

In my neck of the woods the rifles arent even out yet.

So I don't expect I'll see much dies or brass either.

I bet it won't be long though.

How long did it take to get all this from the 204 ruger or 480 ruger?

To me the 375 ruger is an alternative to the 338 win also.

02 January 2007, 00:59

vapodog

quote:
Originally posted by RMiller:
To me the 375 ruger is an alternative to the 338 win also.

Mr Miller.....this has been my fondest appreciation of the round that it's as good a BG round as DG and for the North American hunter to use it in numbers the market for it has to come from the 338 crowd.....not the H&H crowd.

Anyone that actually believes it's going to "do-in" the H&H isn't listening to the history lessons very well.

If enough interest can be gleaned from the 338 boys then the volumes of production will attract the big guys (Olin) to make ammo as well as Hornady and the price will allow for average Joe to own one.

I started this thread with disappointment about the $65 price tag of ammo and several very knowlegeable folks have signed on to disagree....as they should...their opinions carry a lot of weight here and for me as well.

That said...when I start a new gun I also start with 100 brass.....and that's gonna set me back about $300.....sorry...this just isn't going to happen!!! I'm darn happy I built my H&H now as the brass for that cost me less than $40.

Time will tell how this lady plays to the public but at least for one guy she'll have to dance with others until the cost of dancing is reasonable.

02 January 2007, 01:21

Mike Mc

Given that Hornady is a reloading company it is hard to imagine dies and brass not being available in the very near future.

Mike

02 January 2007, 01:46

Yale

Dear Vapodog:

My interest in the 375 Ruger Hawkeye rifle and the Hornady ammunition arises from the necessity of good engineering in a product or in this case products. I will pay more for good engineering. I'm glad that Ruger and Hornady have stepped up to the plate.

As to the market, I am at the mercy of Ruger's and Hornady's intellect, intuition and past performance in meeting that market. Historically, they have done a pretty fair job, in my opinion.

To answer your question about ammunition purchase, let me say that I have not purchased factory ammunition in 12 years. I literally handload everything, and now am onto a 7x57 Ackley using 257 Roberts +P Winchester brass. So, I'll wait for 375 Ruger brass when it pops up at MidwayUSA.

Probably I'll neck it to 358 and produce a newer version of the 35 Newton and also a 416. Actually, the inception of the 375 Ruger will modify my 458/404 Dakota project and will probably kill my 416 Taylor project. I simply dislike belted cartridges. No reason for the belt today.

Chris Bemis

02 January 2007, 02:05

Black Fly

I reload for my rifles and shotguns, but have found that my reloads for 12 bore slugs are not as accurate as Lightfield slugs. So I pay 2 to 2.5 bucks each. That is more than it costs for my 375 and nearly as much as the new 375 will cost. So while it may bite, it's a cost, if I want to hunt where I need slugs. I am a believer in practicing with my field ammo, so I pay. I suspect that Hornady and Ruger have done a market analysis and we will see all the trimmings soon, but if not, really, how many rounds do we put through our big guns a year, after the new gun smell wears off?

02 January 2007, 02:08

boom stick

quote:
I'm sure that Charles Newton's ghost presently is jumping up and down with glee, singing, "I told you so, I designed the best cartridges 100 years ago,

02 January 2007, 02:09

syd-jai

Wow, this is much ado about nothing.

Let's check some numbers. You guys are quoting the MSRP off the Hornady website, which we all know is really high, but not really even close to retail value.

From the MidwayUSA site, which is on the expensive side anyway, but good for apples to apples comparison:

375 H&H Heavy Mag 270gr (Hornady):
MSRP: 62.97
Midway: 46.99

375 Ruger 270gr SP (Hornady)
MSRP: 64.95
Midway: 49.99 (estimated based on the 375 H&H mark-up)

375 H&H 270gr Federal Load
Midway: 40.99

375 H&H 270gr Reming load
Midway: 38.99

So apples to apples, it looks like the 375 Ruger is about 20% more than the 375 H&H on price. Seems fair for a new product that does offer an improvement in performance over the H&H.

Keeping in mind that there are many other 375 H&H loads that are loaded with premium bullets, the price
goes all the way up to 88.99 for the 375 H&H. These are the cheapy 375 H&H loads with comparable bullets.

Also keep in mind that this is a $800-$900 retail rifle. Wholesale is a little over $725. It's not the $500 MKII that we
are all used to.

I bet components will be out shortly, and then you can do whatever you want. I guess I just don't think that the price is out of line.

02 January 2007, 02:12

boom stick

quote:
Probably I'll neck it to 358 and produce a newer version of the 35 Newton and also a 416. Actually, the inception of the 375 Ruger will modify my 458/404 Dakota project and will probably kill my 416 Taylor project. I simply dislike belted cartridges. No reason for the belt today.

i cant wait to hear about the 35 version...

will you move the shoulder back/ steepen the shoulder or have a short neck???

there are a few 35 nuts here that would love to co produce it with you i am sure...

i think a 358 sta performance in an 06 action is going to be awesome!

i am with you on the belt...read my tagline

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/458107695

02 January 2007, 02:13

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by syd-jai:
Wow, this is much ado about nothing.

Let's check some numbers. You guys are quoting the MSRP off the Hornady website, which we all know is really high, but not really even close to retail value.

From the MidwayUSA site, which is on the expensive side anyway, but good for apples to apples comparison:

375 H&H Heavy Mag 270gr (Hornady):
MSRP: 62.97
Midway: 46.99

375 Ruger 270gr SP (Hornady)
MSRP: 64.95
Midway: 49.99 (estimated based on the 375 H&H mark-up)

375 H&H 270gr Federal Load
Midway: 40.99

375 H&H 270gr Reming load
Midway: 38.99

So apples to apples, it looks like the 375 Ruger is about 20% more than the 375 H&H on price. Seems fair for a new product that does offer an improvement in performance over the H&H.

Keeping in mind that there are many other 375 H&H loads that are loaded with premium bullets, the price
goes all the way up to 88.99 for the 375 H&H. These are the cheapy 375 H&H loads with comparable bullets.

Also keep in mind that this is a $800-$900 retail rifle. Wholesale is a little over $725. It's not the $500 MKII that we
are all used to.

I bet components will be out shortly, and then you can do whatever you want. I guess I just don't think that the price is out of line.

good points...

02 January 2007, 02:14

boom stick

quote:
Originally posted by surestrike:
Jesus Christo guys!

Wouldn't you agree that this is a major case of premature epostulation over nothing!

The brass and dies are coming. Give it ten seconds would you?

You guys are like a bunch of kids on Christmas morning all a twiter because you don't have the right batteries for your new toy. Give it a second and let mom go to the store and get some.

And when the brass and dies do become available you can load it with any darn bullet you want. So exactley what is the problem again?

this is why surestrike gets my nomination for most like john wayne...

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/860106691/m/692108695

02 January 2007, 05:28

duikerman

Be petient guys. In the next six months a lot of folks will be having once fired brass for sale.

Dies will be available as they can be made by measuring loaded ammo even if Hornady don't put dies on the market immediately.

Run an add on gunlist offering $1 ea for once fired brass and you'll have a pocketfull quickly.

02 January 2007, 05:35

I don't get this cartridge. 375 H&H pretty much works. If it doesn't, you need a bigger rifle, or, the perfect rifle, a double 9.3 X 74 Merkel.
About 7 pounds, hardly any recoil. Just a joy to shoot.

If you really need another bolt rifle, why not a bolt action 9.3 x 62?

gs

02 January 2007, 05:42

500grains

Give the 375 Rooger 2 years and it will be just as dead as the RUMS and the WSSMS.

02 January 2007, 07:10

Magnum Hunter1

Hornady is just doing what Weatherby has done for 60 years. A little proprietary thing going on. Get an AR group together and put in a bulk order for brass when the specs come, out from that brass company in Montana, I believe it is. I can't remember to save my life right now but I used to have the sight bookmarked. Is it Rocky Mountain Cartridge or something? I remember they will make up wildcat brass with whatever headstamp you want too.
I think I'll keep my H&H. I'm not sure I need a standard lenghth 375 just yet. I'll bet people will complain about the recoil. Then they will want to increase gun weight to get it back up to the weight of a long actioned rifle. Hmmmmmmm. Complaints about feeding, Ammo availibility, bullet performance, etc. Man this thing is going to be good for a bunch of posts.

02 January 2007, 09:03

Slatts

How efficient is this cartridge compared to the 375 H&H?

I'm sitting here pondering a 416 Rigby or 416 Remington and I see similar ballistics but a more efficient powder burner in the Remington, so I'm leaning that way.

I'd like to see the loading data and velocity comparison between the 375 H&H and 375 Ruger.

02 January 2007, 09:09

vapodog

quote:
How efficient is this cartridge compared to the 375 H&H?

About equal I'd say.....

But if you can hack the $65 a box is it really that important?

02 January 2007, 09:11

.366torque

quote:
Originally posted by Slatts:

I'd like to see the loading data and velocity comparison between the 375 H&H and 375 Ruger.

RIP should be doing some factory testing soon. As for reloads you'll have to wait for the dies.

02 January 2007, 09:20

Mike Mc

quote:
I'm sitting here pondering a 416 Rigby or 416 Remington and I see similar ballistics but a more efficient powder burner in the Remington, so I'm leaning that way.

Without getting into finer details, that is only true because the 416 Rigby at 2400 f/s is using reduced loads.

The 375 Ruger will be loaded to the potential provided by its case capacity.

Mike