Kobus,

quote:

Posted by Kobus:
How you could believe that Chris would publish a letter making out as though I was the author, if the letter was not written by me.

quote:

posted 27 April 2005 02:13 by Gerard
Chris,
I check everything you say because of the numerous mistakes, typos, dishonest comparisons and half truths you tend to come up with.

I have indeed contacted Kobus again with a copy of the letter he ostensibly e-mailed you. I have nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed of in this matter. I asked him if the content is correct and as he sent it and, thus far, he has not replied. He is in a difficult position. If he confirms it as correct, he also admits to lying to me on the phone.

quote:

Posted by Kobus:
After my letter was published on the A.R. forum. You had your normal attack of writer’s diarrhea. You could not wait to attack me on the A.R. Forum, later You must have had second thoughts (OOPSwhat if KOBUS never wrote the letter. let me write him a email and make sure) TOO LATE YOU HAVE ALREADY ATTACKED ME ON THE AR FORUM BRANDING ME A LIAR. Why the hell should I answer your email after you had already branded me a liar on the A.R. forum?

18 April: Chris states "I continually test a wide range of Rhino bullets and provide Kobus with feedback."
18 April: I call you and after the call I post: "I just got off the phone with Kobus. He tells me that he has met you a couple of times. He thinks you may have assisted another person he asks to test bullets on game, with the evaluation of his new 9.3mm bullet. For the rest he seems to be in the dark about feedback from you."
19April: Chris posts an e-mail from you confirming that he has done testing for you. If the mail is genuine it means you lied to me. If the mail is not genuine, Chris is the liar.
20 April: I e-mail you a copy of the letter to confirm the authenticity. I also post that I would have hoped that you would be above such duplicity. As it turned out, you did lie instead of simply stating that it is none of my business who tests for you.
27 April: I post that I have e-mailed you and that you have not replied.

quote:

Posted by Kobus:
Do you really believe that Chris Bekker would be so stupid as to write the letter him self? Do you believe my company or I would allow any one to write letters and publish them on a public forum with out my approval?

Chris has used your company, company information and products in dishonest comparisons to ours before. I check everything he says about our products with a fine tooth comb. As long as he continues to spread incorrect information about GS Custom products, I will continue to defend GS Custom. If you do not wish to be dragged into such matters, address Chris on the matter. I understand that it is difficult to do as he is not connected to your business in any way. Tough situation, and I explained this to you in my phone call on the 18th of April.

quote:

Posted by Kobus:
you assume that all the bullets used by Rob did not penetrate properly. How can you make an assumption like that? Rob clearly stated that all Buff dropped within 25 meters.

quote:

Rob Duffield stated: Out of all the buffalo shot this last season (7 in total)....... Not one of the bullets exited on any of the buffalo shot.

My comment was: "If, out of numerous shots taken, a 375H&H bullet of a particular type does not shoot through on a quarter behind the shoulder or a broadside shot, why are you surprised that the rumour is doing the rounds? Obviously that bullet penetrates less than is usual for a 375H&H. With conventional weight bullets in a 375H&H, premium softs and solids frequently shoot through, especially on broadside and behind the shoulder shots."

I did not say that penetration was inadequate. Chris made that statement. I pointedly made the comment that the 380 appeared to penetrate less than is usual for standard bullet weights from a 375H&H. Do you disagree with my statement?

Chris started this thread with the accusation that I am responsible for the rumour that "the 380-gr Rhino bullet is lacking in the penetration stakes" and he was proven wrong. I made the point that he was doing you a disservice in raising the issue and I repeat once more that, when Chris launches attacks on me or GS Custom, a vigorous defence must be expected.

quote:

Do you rally think I am going to lower my company and myself to your standards. Throwing mud at every person how does not agree with me.

You obviously got this from Chris. Check the history carefully. He is the only person who has made this accusation consistently for the past five years. Every time he comes up with wierd statements about GS Custom and I take him to task, he throws that one out. Then he drags in help to support his twisted point of view and suddenly I am disagreeing with the whole world. He has dragged Pieter, Gregor, Mauritz and yourself into his arguments and, as a consequense your products as well. If you dislike this, speak to Chris about it.

quote:

Posted by Kobus:
It is clear to me and I hope to any other sensible person on the AR forum that you are unable to be constructive when debating any topic.

I have never launched a personal attack on anyone. I confine my comments to technical issues and, in Chris' case his technical inaccuracies and mistakes. I think an occasional attmpt at humour may have been misconstrued. Unlike yourself, Chris and Pieter, I have not uttered a single personal insult towards anyone engaged in debate.

Your strident attack on behalf of RHINO BULLES (sic)CC is noted and you may have categorised yourself with it.

Posting for Chris Bekker:

500 Grains,

First of all I want to dwell on the freedom of being able to be rude. I think ol' RIP qualifies to be the rudest on AR for the month of April ... with you and with me. If he does not want to answer a question, he publishes a picture of snoring creature. But Rip also has a good sense of humour ... except with you and me. Why would this be? Are we equally dumb? You seem to be handling the spoon much better than me to stir RIP up into a tizzy - perhaps dumb questions or differences of opinion. Anyway he asked that we leave him out of discussions and herewith I abide by his request, but RIP forgets conveniently that he sometimes chips into discussions and make uninvited comments - sorry man, I forgot, that is a freedom that we all can use. In this vain, I will defend his right to the death to differ with me ... that is another freedom.

Back to your questions:

1. The velocity envelope - 286 gr Rhino

It really depends on the powder that is being used. Here in SA we can only use SA powders by regulation. Overseas powders do give a bit more velocity. Being a European caliber, barrels are typically 23.6" long. Most people believe they have to reach a specific velocity like 2400 fps or 2350 fps or 2300 fps. That is not the most important factor in my opinion. Rather pick your sweet spot between 2250 and 2400 (based on the load & your powder) and focus on your accuracy. The 9.3 x 62 is a gun that was primarily designed for big game out to ranges of 100 to 150 max with 286 gr bullets in RN configuration. With lighter bullets and/or Spitzer bullets the range can be stretched.

2. Expansion & weight retention

Rhinos loaded between 2200 fps and 2300 fps, you can expect and expansion of 21.5 mm (2.3 times) and penetration of 25 to 28 inches in a wetpack of newspapers with one dry telephone book in front. This is deadly performance. My latest load was 2205 fps with our newly developed powder S355, yielding some lower velocity with low pressure but accuracy is excellent. I use my 9.3 out to ranges of 100 meters in the bushveld on big game and you don't need more velocity than this. My policy is not to over stretch the bullet. At 2205 fps it becomes a real pleasure to shoot as the recoil is so mild and I get 99% weight retention in kudu - just to a king's taste. If you insist on 2400 fps for longer shots, pick a 250 gr Spitzer (high BC bullet) like a Barnes-X, as it yields a flatter trajectory.

3. Performance at 350 yards

This is not the terrain of the 9.3 x 62 mm - rather use another caliber. (We need excuses to own more than one gun - sorry it is another freedom) I would not recommend shooting tough bullets when the velocity drops by approx. 600 fps to 700 fps at that distance. I have never tried this, but suspect the bullet would not open up and behave like a solid. If MV is 2300 fps you will be down to 1700 to 1600 fps - too low for my liking. I do not like to drop below 2000 fps with a Rhino bullet, as I want full expansion when it goes through the vitals. The 286 gr Nosler, being a bullet with a soft front core might work better at those longer shots. Another important thing with a pronounced bullet drop curve is that your zero distance becomes very important at longer shots - why gamble and then range estimation also becomes critical.

Hope you will try to down load to around 2250 fps and tell me the result on game. Forget 2400 fps it is just a bea in the bonnet. Lapua loads to 2264 fps with their bonded bullet called the 'Mega' which is softer than a Rhino, but works well on kudu, but certainly too soft for buffalo. I have never use a Rhino bullet at 2400 fps on game and probably never will - it can only work against
bullet performance, higher operating pressure and unnecessary recoil, and yes even induce a flinch if you have a light weight rifle like a 9.3 Hasqvarna. (Not clever in MHO)

Take care
Chris

In response to:
500 Grains' post:
Chris, I am curious about the velocity envelope for the 9.3 mm 286 gr. Rhino bullet, as I have several boxes of them on the shelf above my reloading bench. How much does it expand and how much weight does it retain when fired into game at 2400 fps, and how does it do when fired into game at lower velocity, say at 350 yards. Thank you for your reply.
Posts: 6962 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah | Registered: 20 April 2002

.

Chris, thank you for your detailed response. My 9.3 x 62 (3 of them, actually) is for elk. I have retired from the .338 Win Mag and .375 H&H simply because I like the 9.3. For elk hunting, I can shoot one at 25-50 yards in thick pines (usually an up-the-butt shot, unfortunately), and I can and have shot them out to 600 yards.

I figure that when using a 9.3 zeroed 3.0 inches high at 100 yards, 350 yards is about max range without excessive bullet drop. 2400 fps is possible with 58.0 or 58.5 grains of Reloader 15 powder. I am not sure how that somewhat hot load would stand up to summer temps in Africa - backing off 2 or 3 grains might be the thing to do.

I will test these bullets out on game and let everyone know how they worked out. I also have some GS Custom 9.3 HV's (260 grains I think) which I will test. Those should be a fabulous long range bullet due to their sleek shape.

Happy hunting.

Alf,
A couple of points.

1. If you want to believe that weight is a factor in wind drift, go ahead. Just check into the wind drift thread from time to time to see how wrong you are. (A 55gr .22 and a 168gr .30 will fly over the same trajectory with the same amount of drift if their BC numbers and speeds are the same. Your own examples prove you are wrong.)

2. The four illustrations above need clarification and for that you have to see page 87 for the legend. The S you refer to so smugly is where bullet weight and cross section are used within larger formulae to achieve a further purpose. Have you noticed the little xs hanging from the littls Ss? They also have meaning. Check all the other formulae in the book for all the little Vs (velocity) Fs (force) and Ws (weight).

3. The last illustration which you titled the last straw, becomes clear when read in conjuction with the diagrams which all deal with the same velocity ranges. Once you understand what he is saying you will see that it shows the relevance of Mo/XSA. The importance of Sd he refers to is in the context of different calibre bullets at similar speeds. We have hashed through that enough times in the Sd wars and repeating the same argument here is pointless.

Between this lot and weight and wind drift, it seems that you have mastered the art of taking science way out of context

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
5
The 300 gr solid and 286 gr Soft.

I have gotten some 286 gr. softs and solids to test out.

Gerard, do I understand this correctly: In order to provide a bullet that expands over a broad range of velocities, the HV opens up easily but will list its petals at very high velocity, but will still expand at low velocity (1500 to 2000 fps)?

Gerard,

I have one further question.

Will the 173 grain .308" HV work on deer from a 30-06?

Thanks!

I have never used better bullets than the GS Customs or Northforks, and I am an old bullet digger from way back...

Today we have the best bullets in the world, the best we have ever had...Northfork, woodleigh, GS Custom, Nosler, Barnes,Swift,Rhino, and some others, so no use comparing them these days because they all work to near perfection. You guys are beating a dead horse to death with technology and mines bigger than yours!

500grains,
You are correct. The terminal performance parameters of the three bullet types we make can be found here
and
here


The 173gr .30 cal HV requires a twist rate of one in 8.5" for good point blank terminal performance. If the bullet is applied at distances over 500 yards, the twist rate can be slowed to one in 10" for use to 800 and beyond. This is not really how a 30-06 would be applied and, for general use inside of 500 yards, the 150gr HV will be the best all rounder by far.

This caliber and twist recommendation information is here.

All .30 cal HVs can be used on deer with no fear of failure. Keep the impact speed between 1600 and 4000 fps and knock them down.

Gerard, thank you for the reply. One follow up question: If I use the 173 grain bullets in a 30-06 for shots up to 500 yards on deer, what is the likely effect? I do not know the twist of the rifle, but assume it to be a standard one as the rifle was made by Husqvarna in the 1950's. In particular, do you think the twist in this gun may be too slow, leading to bullet instability and/or inaccuracy? Or would stability and accuracy be fine, but would bullet tumbling in the game occur?

Thanks!

Very interesting reading all.
Where was I ... last weekend I recovered a bullet from a berm. It was a .475/500 grain GSC HV that I put there 3 years ago. A sight to be hold. It took three years of intermittent digging, but I got it.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Very interesting reading all.
Where was I ... last weekend I recovered a bullet from a berm. It was a .475/500 grain GSC HV that I put there 3 years ago. A sight to be hold. It took three years of intermittent digging, but I got it.

Take its picture RIP and share with us! Maybe a direct comparison with a "fresh" one still warm from the "coffin" ???

BigRx

With todays bullets and the advancements that have been made over yesterdays fair, I don't see how any knowledgable hunter or shooter could argue one over the other with any credability to speak of and most of these arguements are based only on the use of one bullet, not all of them, thus prejedices prevail and without a lot of meaning....

Woodleigh, North Fork, GS Customs, Barnes X, Swift, Nosler, and obviously Rhino, judging from the photographs, and not necessarily in any order along with a host of other bullets are not likely to fail at all...

You have to give all these bullet makers their due, they have come far pilgrims!!

.

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Gerard,

I am now closing my debate with you. I repeat my offer to you to include your bullets in my upcoming test. There could be a benefit for you. My test will be witnessed by other people with integrity, have no fear. Your exact guidelines will be followed - powder, load and twist. I will only write what I see and publish it on AR.

I am glad the truth is out in the open about me regarding the letter that you doubted. I noted how you blame everything on me in your reply to Kobus. You know of course that I reject it, so I won't dwell on it other than to be amused with what you call "dishonest comparisons" and that "I (Gerard) did not say that penetration was inadequate. Chris made that statement." This just proves yet again how you can put another spin on things. I actually thought that I was the one who was defending the Rhino bullets in their sterling performance. Then you have the audacity to talk about dishonesty. I just give up with you or should I also start to phone other people like your dealers and find out about dealings with them, your service, etc and then report it on AR - sort of a survey, with the intention to discredit you like you tried with me?

My invitation stands - send me 50 bullets and I will include them in the test.
If you refuse the offer, we will never know weather your bullets are superior or inferior over the Lutz Moller bullets.
If you have absolute confidence, then the results will speak in your favour and I will gladly publicize the fact.

Let us raise above the petty level of silly arguments and test the bullets.

Take care
Chris

Alf,
I am following the wind drift thread. You do not have to scurry over here to fetch me. See you there

quote:

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:
I repeat my offer to you to include your bullets in my upcoming test. There could be a benefit for you.

Chris, for my curiosity, can you briefly describe the test media? Ballistic gelatin? Sawdust? Boards? Water trough? Thanks!

500grains,
The older Huskies I have seen have all been pretty close to standard CIP specs. That should make it a one in 10". They did tend to make them with the leade on the long side. The 173gr HV will be stable in flight all the way to the transition to subsonic but will probably tumble on impact inside 400/600yds. The closer you hit with it the higher the probability of tumbling. Bullets that tumble on impact have failed as the terminal performance is unpredictable.

Chris,
The written words are there to read and regardless of how you try to explain them away, you cannot change that.

You are welcome to survey our service and report what you find. Just make sure that you report accurately and not like the price comparison you did with our products and your favourites a while back. As far as sending you and your friends bullets to test.....

quote:

Originally posted by BigRx:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Very interesting reading all.
Where was I ... last weekend I recovered a bullet from a berm. It was a .475/500 grain GSC HV that I put there 3 years ago. A sight to be hold. It took three years of intermittent digging, but I got it.

Take its picture RIP and share with us! Maybe a direct comparison with a "fresh" one still warm from the "coffin" ???

BigRx

BigRx,
I have my boards and bags for the RIP Bullet Coffin. I am working on it. It will be made of laminated pine boards (1"x12"x72") and 2x4's: a classy pine box.

I'll have 1/2" plywood every 6" and a garbage bag of water between the 1 foot square plywood panels being shot through. If that won't stop everything within 6 feet I will be amazed.

This will deserve some photos, along with the 3-years-in -the-dirt GSC HV.475/500gr compared to a fresh one from the wood and water box.

Chris,
I am sorry, in my mirth I forgot to ad:

quote:

If you refuse the offer, we will never know weather your bullets are superior or inferior over the Lutz Moller bullets.

quote:

Die Wildpretentwertung ist mit beiden Geschossen gering, allerdings scheint das GS-Custom doch besser ausgelegt zu sein und weiter aufzumachen. Die Totfluchten mit GS-HV waren geringer; 0,0,5,10 Meter gegenüber 10,20,30 Meter mit dem KJG

I would be grateful if someone with the required fluency could give us the correct English for the German quote above, taken from a German discussion forum.

Posting for Chris Bekker:


500 Grains,

You ask ... "Chris, for my curiosity, can you briefly describe the test media? Ballistic gelatin? Sawdust? Boards? Water trough? Thanks!"


The test medium will be a wetpack (to get a basic idea) followed up with the shooting of animals which is the ultimate test. Later in our winter season I am going to cull 40 Impala. It provides the ideal opportunity for me to use different bullets over the same weekend, same conditions, etc.

It seems pretty clear that the GS-HV bullets will not be amongst the pack, judging by Gerard's non committal answer, just like he avoided Alf's question to answer my momentum analogy of the 10 pound round ball ( 70000 gr) doing 7.3 fps giving a momentum of 73.3 lb.ft/sec vs the 30cal of 180 gr at 2850 fps also giving a momentum of 73.3 lb.ft/sec. Anyway, it does not matter any more, as I don't expect a straight answer in any event. It will be twisted, just like he concluded I dragged Kobus into our discussion, when he was in fact the one who contacted Kobus, then reported on AR, then Gerard wrote again to Kobus and so he got the final answer out of Kobus. Clearly he dragged Kobus into the discussion and not me. I merely reported that I was testing his bullets. Gerard uses the technique of projection - he will project the shit on you. Unfortunately it does not work with me and hopefully the AR readers are astute enough to see this.

Regards
Chris

Chris,

As far as sending you and your friends bullets to test.....


Only you could construe the above as a non-committal answer.

By the way, the principal behind your lead ball analogy was discussed to distraction in the Sd wars part one and two and elsewhere. Only it was not called "a 10 pound round ball ( 70000 gr) doing 7.3 fps giving a momentum of 73.3 lb.ft/sec vs the 30cal of 180 gr at 2850 fps also giving a momentum of 73.3 lb.ft/sec." The numbers were a little different which is probably why you did not notice the similarity of the reasoning.

There is enough repetition of arguments going in circles and I am trying not to ad to that.

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Where were the days of old when all submitted their arms and goods to "The Field" for the Field trials and you could for the world to see lay claim to your successes there

Most hunting magazine articles these days are advertisements rather than honest product evaluations. But if a guy wants to evaluate a product, he can always buy some and try them out. And publish the results of he is so inclined. There was a little nasty behavior on the part of the owner of www.graybeardoutdoors.com when he asked for free bullets to test, and the bullet maker said that anyone who wants to test the bullets can buy some. It seems most of the manufacturers have been abused in the past with regard to giving free product for testing.

There is another aspect to products that are donated for testing. They are usually carefully selected to represent the cream of whatever the manufacturer is making. Buying them off the shelf gets rid of that problem and ensures that the product that is tested is representative of average production quality.

Over at 24hourcampfire.com, the hacks performed a "bullet test" of Nosler Accubond bullets on plains game. They act thrilled that they got 48-60% weight retention. Whoopee!