This picture at the bottom of the hunting page on the rhino website says the bullet on the left is a 180 grain 30-06. It looks exactly like the 7 mm bullet higher up on the same page.

With reference to Chris Bekker's allegations that I was set up by Gerard Schultz to do his 'dirty work' for him, the following:

1. I don't know Chris Bekker in any other way than through his articles in SA Hunter - in the most recent editions of February and April 2005 he is once again on the old topics of SD and LV - something which most of the sophisticated hunters left behind like Henry Ford's Model T was long ago by all modern motorists. Even Ford will tell you the Model T, once upon a time the most popular and fairly reliable motor driven vehicle in the world, is of no use other than a museum piece nowadays!

2. From your posting I again saw how sly and underhanded your friend Dr Maurits V Coetzee really is. Trust he has shown you ALL his replies on my letters to him - if he did I trust that you agree with the Big Bore Association that his extremely, shocking and vulgar language used in these replies, is totally unacceptable to all civilized, human beings.

Then more to the point, novice certainly as far as big bore rifles and buffalo hunting goes, but one doesn't need to be a buffalo hunter to know the difference between good, bad and excellent, totally reliable bullets like the GS Custom HV's certainly are.
I have been hunting antelope like Kudu, Gemsbok, Bluewildebeest and Eland for many years with all types of bullets.
Needles to say when I learned of Gerard Schultz's HV's from a PH using only his bullets with great success, I immediately realised why I was shopping around for something better than the old schools' core bonded, low velocity (LV) stuff yielding unpredictable results ever so often.

Hence my reactions on your friend's simplistic and unrealistic ballistic jargon filled article he was trying to push down South African hunters' throats.

I think you owe Gerard Schultz an immediate apology for your totally unfounded allegations made against him by using my letters, not even directed to you, and completely unasked for, to get a shot in on him.

All I know after all this is, if that is the way you come to conclusions, I would strongly suggest that you start learning to get your facts together and verified, before you spill the beans again.

> Wait for the boomerang!

This is fully applicable on you and your sly friend.


Koos Geldenhuys.

Mr. Geldenhuys,

I am sorry to see you were inadvertently caught up in a third party argument.

_____

Alf,

Thank you for your detailed answer. In the end it seems you are saying it is difficult to predict which bullet would penetrate more deeply due to tissue variance based on the precise bullet path taken.

I wonder if Mr. Bekker, Gerard or Mr. Geldenhuys have any prediction which bullet would likely penetrate more deeply.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
RIP:

Your copies of articles as promised shipped today Canada Express post

Alf

Alf,
I'll mail your book today and hope they don't collide in transit.

I apologize if I missed it, but where does one aquire said Rhino bullets?

.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Mr Jagter:

With all respest to your comments about antequated bullets at antequated velocities;

quote:

the old schools' core bonded, low velocity (LV) stuff yielding unpredictable results ever so often

1. I would respectfully remind you that the majority of bullets manufactured and used today are still of the antequated variety shot at antequated velocities

2. Further this you imply something NEW
in the form of GS Customs or other monometal bullets.

Alf, re point 2 above - take your point, but let's rather call it then something modern and much more researched and developed than the originals!

Point 1 - Ja, I can live with that. However, on this web site I saw a few pictures where the smaller game types, specifically Impala, were shot with a 375H&H using a 270gr Swift A-Frame bullet. I personally hurt when I see how badly that poor animal was bruised and damage simply because it was much more gun and bullet than was needed to kill this most beautiful and graceful specie of all antelopes. [br] Another one shot with a Walther Hog 300gr bullet (must have also been a fairly big bore rifle) and although it is said by the hunter that they wanted to show the effect of a big bore on small game, I don't think that is the way to hunt any animal and still have enough dignity to look mankind in the eye.

On this web site is also a picture of an Impala shot with too much gun, 416 Rem Mag, but this time with a 330gr (too much bullet as well) GS Custom HV. As usual with this type of bullet very little damage to the animal as far as one can see on the picture.

This is where the difference between "antequated" and the "modern" really comes in. Hence my preference for GS Custom HV.

It is so much more challenging to hunt Impala with a .264 Win Mag using a 95gr GS Custom HV or a .270 Win and a 110gr GS C HV than to blow it up with a 416 Rem Mag or a 375H&H.

Perhaps or modern day hunters should spent much more time to perfect their shot placement and simultaneously learn to use modern bullets!
(By the way, Gerard doesn't know I am writing this - )

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Koos Geldenhuis,

Gerard once did a survey on me and Dr Mauritz Coetzee to ascertain how many people know us. This is no joke - ask Gerard. You specifically referred Mauritz to the writings of Gerard - did you really believe for one moment that Mauritz would pay attention to that? Despite the shortcomings that you found in Mauritz's explanation, he knows what works as a buffalo hunter. In the light of Gerard phoning Kobus of Rhino bullets behind my back to see if he could publish something negative about me is clearly underhanded and shows his style or operating method. (Let us see if Gerard will contact Kobus of Rhino bullets again) In the light of Gregor Woods' statement that Gerard got several people to challenge his views, I have rightly asked the following question (I did not say he absolutely did) and I quote: "So you want us to believe that Koos Geldenhuis was not setup to do your dirty work?". Due to the emerging trend over quite some time, I think it was only fair of me to ask the question. This was not an accusation Koos. Gerard's way is to play the man and not the ball.

My main issue was about your statement of the apparent shallow penetration of a 380 gr Rhino bullet on buffalo, which I have dealt with and assume I have laid that one to rest now. I have contained my comments to the main issue. I cannot comment on specific compliments that you 2 guys paid each other nor the view of BASA. Hopefully they will make their own comments to clarify their positions.

Regards
Chris Bekker

> Koos Geldenhuis,
>
> Gerard once did a survey on me and Dr Mauritz Coetzee to ascertain how many people know us. This is no joke - ask Gerard.

Don't understand where this fits into the discussion at all! Don't bother to explain it either!

> You specifically referred Mauritz to the writings of Gerard - did you really believe for one moment that Mauritz would pay attention to that?

Why wouldn't he? Is it perhaps because of the links I supplied that he couldn't follow? I noticed at the time of my e-mails to him that he couldn't reply to them by himself, but had to do it via BASA.
Similarly, why don't you do your own postings on this web site, Chris?
Do you two closely linked friends try to tell us something that we should take note of through this modus operandi?

> Despite the shortcomings that you found in Mauritz's explanation, he knows what works as a buffalo hunter.

Sorry, but I still don't buy that.

> In the light of Gerard phoning Kobus of Rhino bullets behind my back to see if he could publish something negative about me is clearly underhanded and shows his style or operating method. (Let us see if Gerard will contact Kobus of Rhino bullets again) In the light of Gregor Woods' statement that Gerard got several people to challenge his views, I have rightly asked the following question (I did not say he absolutely did) and I quote: "So you want us to believe that Koos Geldenhuis was not setup to do your dirty work?". Due to the emerging trend over quite some time, I think it was only fair of me to ask the question. This was not an accusation Koos. Gerard's way is to play the man and not the ball.
>
At the time you might have thought it was fair to ask the question, but now that I have explicitly told you that you were totally wrong, why don't you apologise to the man like any gentleman would do?

> My main issue was about your statement of the apparent shallow penetration of a 380 gr Rhino bullet on buffalo, which I have dealt with and assume I have laid that one to rest now. I have contained my comments to the main issue.

That's what you should have done outright. Unfortunately you clouded the whole issue in the first place to apparently help your friend answering my questions which he obviously couldn't do satisfactorily and secondly throwing mud on Gerard and trying to put him thru the process in a bad light.

> I cannot comment on specific compliments that you 2 guys paid each other nor the view of BASA. Hopefully they will make their own comments to clarify their positions.

Again, BASA was pulled unwillingly into this because your friend supplied their e-mail address to me as being his personal contact address!

>
> Regards
> Chris Bekker


Chris, with all due respect, you have pulled yourself down to the level of your friend thru this whole process, which is completely unacceptable to me.
I would therefore no longer take part in this mud throwing on this site where I was " inadvertently caught up in a third party argument" as it was correctly stated by '500grains' earlier on this page.
Furthermore, this discussion, if one dare call it that, is of no use to any of the members or visitors of this web site.

Should you still wish to communicate with me on this topic, I suggest that you get my e-mail address from your very close friend.

Kind regards,
Koos Geldenhuys.

Chris,
I check everything you say because of the numerous mistakes, typos, dishonest comparisons and half truths you tend to come up with.

I have indeed contacted Kobus again with a copy of the letter he ostensibly e-mailed you. I have nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed of in this matter. I asked him if the content is correct and as he sent it and, thus far, he has not replied. He is in a difficult position. If he confirms it as correct, he also admits to lying to me on the phone. If he does not, I must assume you are lying about the content now. You see, if you walked up to me and said "Good morning," I would check my watch.

quote:

My main issue was about your statement of the apparent shallow penetration of a 380 gr Rhino bullet on buffalo, which I have dealt with and assume I have laid that one to rest now.

I don't know about laying the issue to rest, you may have raised a point that no-one that I was aware of was talking about anyway. I have not given the 380 Rhino 375 much thought and it should not concern me, but you mention two things that do raise a question. In your first post: "The story is spread in South Africa ...... that the 380-gr Rhino bullet is lacking in the penetration stakes."

I have not heard this rumour but then you quote Rob Duffield as saying: "Out of all the buffalo shot this last season (7 in total)....... Not one of the bullets exited on any of the buffalo shot."

If, out of numerous shots taken, a 375H&H bullet of a particular type does not shoot through on a quarter behind the shoulder or a broadside shot, why are you surprised that the rumour is doing the rounds? Obviously that bullet penetrates less than is usual for a 375H&H. With conventional weight bullets in a 375H&H, premium softs and solids frequently shoot through, especially on broadside and behind the shoulder shots.

With friends like you, the guys at Rhino will start looking for enemies to keep them company

Making an issue of Gregor complaining that I asked people to challenge his views is laughable. Gregor and I had been corresponding about things that he was sceptical about. I told him that I would ask people to contact him directly on those issues as he clearly did not believe me and was putting my views down to my "marketing strategy". This was in 2001, more than a year before the e-mail you quoted above. I have become aware of the fact that Gregor's nose is out of joint about some facts we discussed as he had been contacted less than tactfully by some people.

You have some nerve talking about me playing the man not the ball, when that is what you revert to with monotonous regularity when cornered technically.

As I have said before: When you make gross errors regarding our products, I will point out those errors. Get used to it or shape up. (It has become fun to pick up on your other mistakes as well and maybe I should drop that habit.)

quote:

Originally posted by Jagter:
However, on this web site I saw a few pictures where the smaller game types, specifically Impala, were shot with a 375H&H using a 270gr Swift A-Frame bullet. I personally hurt when I see how badly that poor animal was bruised and damage simply because it was much more gun and bullet than was needed to kill this most beautiful and graceful specie of all antelopes.

Mr. Geldenhuys,

I think you are talking about me, here. I thought I might put your mind at ease. There was no noticable bruising and meat damage to that delicate and graceful impala. It was a frontal shot that penetrated the chest and abdominal cavity. The bullet was lodged in the rear ham, but the meat was not bloodshot. So please, do not feel "personally hurt".



If it makes any difference, I had to use "much more gun and bullet than was needed to kill" that animal because I had to leave my own rifles at home (US State Dept issue) and was just lucky to have been able to borrow a great 375 H&H for my safari. (as an aside, that impala measured 25 7/8"...not bad for only having been in Africa for a few hours, eh? I'm glad I didn't turn it down becuz I was packing too much gun! )

quote:

On this web site is also a picture of an Impala shot with too much gun, 416 Rem Mag, but this time with a 330gr (too much bullet as well) GS Custom HV. As usual with this type of bullet very little damage to the animal as far as one can see on the picture.

Now, you definitely have to be referring to my friend Don_G, from the very same trip. He used his 416 RM for everything, partially because he had problems with a 308 Win and Nosler Partitions that failed to open on a previous trip to RSA. He wasn't leaving anything to chance this time!

Funny thing is though, you have drawn an impossible conclusion from a trophy photo. It is not possible to say that there was no meat damage in that animal, anymore that it would have been possible to say that there was great bruising and damage to the one I shot. The entrance wound on Don's impala is in a great place, but the exit may have ripped out half of the far shoulder...Or maybe that is the exit wound but the whole shoulder on the far side was bloodshot from the impact velocity at 60 yards??...tough to surmise, no?



Truth is, near as I can recall, the GS Custom did rip a pretty neat pencil hole through both shoulders. BUT, I bet more meat was actually lost from this animal than the one I shot, even if the difference is small.

So what is my point? The back and forth here has been entertaining and educational, but I suggest that you guys stick to the verifiable facts.

I will also say this though, the GS Custom HV's that Don used performed admirably. Only one was recovered, and that was from the spine of a big blue Eland bull. I was quite impressed with them.

For the record, I will be back in RSA in about 29 days and will be packing my own rifles this time. Both of them will be loaded with GS Customs (specifically, a 300 Win Mag with 160 gr HV's at 3200 fps and a 375 H&H with 265gr HV's and 2750 fps). I expect good results, and will be happy to share all the results here (good or bad) shortly following my return.

Kindest regards,
Canuck

.

quote:

Assume we roll the lead ball, weighing 10 pounds, in the direction of a cow at 5 mpu, laying in the kraal.

For those who have not been to Africa, a word of explanation is required. "mpu" Is a unit of measure peculiar to this continent and is "miles per ungulate". The origin is obscured in history but it is believed to be linked to the fact that, when asked how far away a place is in Africa, the answer is usually given in days. This distance is further qualified by the number of creatures (ungulates) drawing the cart used for the journey.

.

TO: Canuck

> Truth is, near as I can recall, the GS Custom did rip a pretty neat pencil hole through both shoulders. BUT, I bet more meat was actually lost from this animal than the one I shot, even if the difference is small.
>
> So what is my point? The back and forth here has been entertaining and educational, but I suggest that you guys stick to the verifiable facts.

I agree with you on this and must admit that my comment was also based on what I have seen from quite a number of game hunted by a PH using GS Custom HV's where entrance and exit wounds were very similar with minimal meat damage in all cases. That in addition to your friend's Impala on the picture. Só, all in all it certainly was verified facts!

On your Impala, you were there and I accept what you are saying. Kindly accept my apology.
Again I have also seen Impala shot with a .375H&H using core bonded bullets and they were smashed!

How do you feel about the Impala shot with a 300gr Walther Hog?

>
> I will also say this though, the GS Custom HV's that Don used performed admirably. Only one was recovered, and that was from the spine of a big blue Eland bull. I was quite impressed with them.
>
> For the record, I will be back in RSA in about 29 days and will be packing my own rifles this time. Both of them will be loaded with GS Customs (specifically, a 300 Win Mag with 160 gr HV's at 3200 fps and a 375 H&H with 265gr HV's and 2750 fps). I expect good results, and will be happy to share all the results here (good or bad) shortly following my return.

I would like to see the results of your RSA 2005 hunt and look forward to see how the GS Custom HV's performed and to hear your unbiased opinion on these premium bullets.

TO: Alf

It is a pity indeed. I carefully use the word 'allegation' meaning 'to state' or 'to declare' and the other party accuses me of using the word 'accusation' meaning 'to blame' or 'to charge that a person is guilty'. What a way to try to reach an agreement on something?
But until such time as Chris Bekker apologises to Gerard Schultz publicly on this web site, I for one would consider him and his views of no interest and value.
Humbleness makes a small man stand out like a giant amongst the great men on earth! ~ Author Unknown.

I am going on a hunt during July 2005 this year during which time I will use GS Custom HV's in a .270 Win 110gr; .308 Win, with a funny 1:10 inch twist, 130gr and a 7mm Rem Mag also with 130gr bullets. The intention is to hunt Grey Duiker; Impala; Blesbuck; Kudu and Bluewildebeest. Will report back on this as soon as the hunt is completed.

Have a great hunt!
Koos Geldenhuys.

Chris,
I see that you are taking things out of context and applying them however you think makes you look most proper. A frequent excursion of yours.

The Bwana Saeed Index is far more sophisticated and accurate than your Bekker KOV. However the BSI is a BS Index.

You can leave me out of this nonsense now.

You shouldn't take yourself so seriously.

Alf,
Chris' post to RIP is a shambles of bad logic. He quotes from Norbert's site and the paragraph he uses states the importance of Mo/XSA repeatedly. Not once is momentum metioned as a factor on it's own. Using this "expert testimony", he builds an empty argument stating that momentum on it's own means nothing, Sd on it's own means nothing and Mo/XSA is the real indicator of penetration but not of lethality. We all know this and it is merely a repeat of the previous two threads where he also repeated himself ad infinitum.

After that he touts BKOV V3 as the solution and justifies it with formulae developed for tank warfare.

You are right about BC but before we tackle Cd, we must first sort out Sd.

The following is way off topic but may be interesting to some. Alf probably knows it as well.

Mpu has been the source of some very serious trouble over the years. Varying the value of mpu (miles per ungulate)causes the distance (days) between two fixed points to diminish or increase. Before this was realised, it caused deep division between tribes who could not agree on how many days should be allocated to cross-border raids and sundry genocides. It is believed to be the root cause of the ongoing 30 year war between the Hutus and the Tutsis in Burundi.

It is ironic that the experiment devised to test the theory of mpu is based on the game of Moksa (rolling the ball at the cow). The ball is called the sadile dengwa or sd for short and the cow selected for the game would be awarded to the winning player as a moomentum. Players of the game, which usually lasted seven days, are called bekkas. These games are generally accompanied by much informal banter and insults are passed between players as part of the distraction strategy.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:

It is ironic that the experiment devised to test the theory of mpu is based on the game of Moksa (rolling the ball at the cow). The ball is called the sadile dengwa or sd for short and the cow selected for the game would be awarded to the winning player as a moomentum. Players of the game, which usually lasted seven days, are called bekkas. These games are generally accompanied by much informal banter and insults are passed between players as part of the distraction strategy.

The problem with the Bwana Saeed Index is that it does not take bullet cross sectional area into consideration (unless I have a mistaken understanding of it).

500lies,
You don't get it at all do you? Put your thumb back in your mouth and suck harder.

Ron, are you mad because you told a joke and I didn't laugh?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Ron, are you mad because you told a joke and I didn't laugh?

I see that you are sucking even harder. Yes, you suck, Dan. Just quit trying to suck up to me. It won't work.
But it sure is funny.

Ron, although I am trying to be civil, you keep making comments which once again remind me of the sound of desparation of a doctor without a hospital.

500lies,
There you go again. Funny little stupid boy who knows nothing about which he lies.

I am enjoying life a lot more during this hiatus from hospital. I am doing outpatient clinic work only. It is a joy. No night call. No weekend call.

I have done years at a time when I was on call 12 days in a row and off for two days. This happens when you share a practice with a partner, covering every other weekend for each other but being on call for your own patients through the week. It can be hell. A good doctor will soon have no life, unless he can put limits on the demands.

Starting at 630 AM on hospital rounds then rushing to clinic, then back to hospital after clinic to tuck in new admissions to hospital, then dictating until groggy, and still being on call 24-7 for those twelve days straight.

I recall one Fourth of July when I rounded in the AM at the hospital, did a half day of clinic (since it was a holiday), then admitted 9 folks to the hospital (covering holiday call for 5 FP's, with patients coming in through the hospital ER) and finished the rounding for the day 23 hours after I started that AM. Meals on the run and a half hour in a Lazy Boy before starting the day all over again. It happens sometimes. I was rounding on about 30 patients that day in the hospital, and clinic on top of that, all by my lonesome.

Desperate?

Go suck your thumb, goofy little ignorant boy.

You don't even know how to spell "desperation."
"Desparation" you say? What is that?

PS: 500lies, have you ever heard of OB/GYN's who "retire" to office gynecology after age 50? The concept is similar. Alas, I fear I will be rounding in the hospital again soon. Then I will feel some desperation when rousted from my bed in the wee hours.

I don't believe a candy ass like yourself would ever understand some of these concepts.

.

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Hunters,

Over time we have become quite used to Gerard Schultz's whining and how he always put another spin on things to distract. I would like to offer him some cheese with that whine (wine). Gerard should really try to entertain people as a clown in a circus with his outlandish stories or as a standup comedian. Gerard should not worry about the "bekkas", but rather concentrate on practicing his Guru Syndrome (GS) and teach us something interesting, like how SD causes expansion of steel-jacketed bullets (Wdl FMJ bullet) or even pure tungsten bullets when they strike an animal. This would really be great!

In a previous post I raised the question ... "Let us see if Gerard will contact Kobus of Rhino bullets again" ... after he made such an asshole of himself. Believe it or not, he wrote this time to Kobus, and when he did not receive an immediate answer, he then announced that Kobus must be in a predicament/dilemma as to which way to turn. Quite clever hey? I guess Gerard must have performed a layman's psycho analysis. Gerard has just proven, yet again, how paranoid he can be. We will have to practice some patience now to see how Kobus of Rhino Bullets is going to answer. If the answer is not to Gerard's liking he should refer the matter to the president.

Everybody is either wrong or misguided, even Gregor Woods the foremost gun writer in South Africa. The readers can make their own deductions as to why Gerard is given the cold-shoulder. The Guru Supreme must speak and we must all listen - the obedient children of the swami.

Chris Bekker

Note-to-self: Take home message from these many, many pages of debate/bickering.....Don't bother to take any of these guys seriously.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck,

We pride ourselves on our many freedoms here in the evil empire just to your south. Some of our freedoms include:

freedom of religion
freedom from religion
freedom of association
freedom to keep to yourself
freedom of speech
freedom of the press
freedom to be rude
etc.

You may have noticed that some forumites like to take advantage of their God-given freedom to be rude. But it may be a mistake to not take them seriously, because I think those in question are deadly serious about it.

I try hard not to be rude towards Chris. If I have been perceived to be rude, I offer my apology. I will do my very best not to be rude again.

Disclaimer.
The word rude is taken to have the standard English meaning of: Impolite, not showing respect or consideration. Improper, obscene. Startling, violent, rough. Primitive, without refinement. Vigorous. In the natural state. (Sort of like Chris' post above)

Excluded from the concept of "rude" and therefore specifically allowed are:

1. Pointing out of mistakes.
2. Engaging in debate and discussion.
3. Disagreeing with a stated point of view.
4. Agreeing with a stated point of view.
5. Leading questions.
6. Statement of fact.
7. Requests for clarification.
8. Enquiries regarding ommissions.
9. Offering of advice.
10. Light humour

In the spirit of the above undertaking I feel compelled to respectfully point out the following mistakes in Chris' posts on only this page:

1. Gregor is not the foremost gun writer in South Africa. The title belongs to Dr. Lukas Potgieter by a wide margin. Even Gregor will concede to that.
2. Everybody is not wrong or misguided. Only those who believe in certain misconceptions such as, but not only, that cylinders are square, that hydrostatic shock exists and that "overstabilised bullets tumble on impact".
3. Chris started this thread with the statement: " The story is spread in South Africa by a certain group of people, which (sic) I shall call the 'Solid Brigade' " and proceeded to be proven very wrong. He assumed that Koos Geldenhuys was acting on my behalf and thus far has not offered any apology for dragging us into his incorrect assumption. I am respectfully putting forward the position that any responsibility for the self inflicted construction of a rectum therefore be claimed by Chris and not bestowed on me.
4. Rat Motor pointed out that Chris posted a picture of a bullet claiming that it is a 160gr 7mm, while the manufacturer describes it as a .30 cal. of 180gr. Would Chris please clarify who is mistaken.
5. "and when he did not receive an immediate answer" Actually I waited 7 days for an answer. (The same time a game of Moksa takes) With respect to Chris' opinion, immediate would have been within a day or two. Today, fourteen days later, there is still no reply. Does this not indicate that someone is perhaps guilty of being less than truthful?

Gerard,

I though Canuck was addressing Chris, Ron and I with regard to rudeness, not you.

Actually, I wasn't addressing anyone with regard to rudeness.

I was just commenting (or attempting to) that its gets pretty hard to take anyone's opinions seriously when they act like kids in a sandbox, no matter how well thought out or researched those opinions may be. Throughout this and other threads on the same or related topics, the individuals on each side have done more damage to their own case than the opposition has (IMHO as a completely unbiased and impartial observer that is trying to learn something from all this).

Actually, as a side note, you guys kinda remind me of some old college roomies. Eng-Phys'er (or ENG-FIZZ as they would spell it). Anyway, in their relentless pursuit of the "Theory of Everything", they bicker with each other a lot like you guys. No disrespect intended, but it seems that staring at numbers and formulas way too much must do that to ya. Hope you do get to your "Ballistic Theory of Everything" one day though.

500gr, on the topic you brought up, I respect your (our) God-given (or not) right to be rude. I have no issue with it, other than the collateral damage. If I may use an analogy, its kinda like smoking. Go ahead and do what you will to your own lungs, but try not to force others to have to breath it in. In respect of these forums, a little second hand smoke won't kill anyone, but there is a point where common courtesy suggests that you should take it outside (not necessarily the argument, but the "rudeness").

Anyway, not the greatest analogy from a strictly literal sense, but you're a smart guy so I am sure you can see my point.

Cheers,
Canuck

Canuck, apparently I am not smart enough to avoid being rude.

Canuck,
I was just playing safe. No need to offend anyone here, its all in good fun anyway and Chris has been in my face for almost five years now. Sooner or later one has to scratch the itch, set up the spring gun, let the dogs out.....

Chris,

What brand/caliber bullets do you use when hunting eland and kudu?

Posting for Chris Bekker:

500 Grains,

I have never found you to be rude at all - just stirring the pot now and then when you detect a simmering as the heat goes down - you kind da like the boiling bubbles - that is ok with me. With stirring the pot I mean you ask further questions, sometimes just one-liners, just to bring the pot back to boil. Shall we call it probing, which is also a type of freedom that we all can make use of. I actually liked your detailed explanation of all the freedoms that we enjoy.

Regarding your question about ... "What brand/caliber bullets do you use when hunting eland and kudu?" ... I have to answer that I have used many different types of bullets in the past. Currently I use 286 gr Rhino bullets in my 9,3 x 62 on eland and 160 gr Rhino bullets in my 7 x 57 in bushveld conditions, but if I were to hunt kudu at longer rages I will certainly use my 300 H&H with 200 gr Rhino/Barnes-x bullets. I have been using 175 gr Barnes-X bullets in my 7 x 57 as well. I guess you want me to mention my favourite bullet - Rhino without a doubt.

Gerard,

1. Whilst I like Dr Lucas Potgieter a lot, I remain with my opinion that Gregor Woods is the number 1 writer in South Africa. If you differ with me, then I grant you your freedom (as so eloquently pointed out by 500 Grains) to have your own opinion. That is certainly not a mistake if I believe so. You are very quick to talk about mistakes ... afterall who is to say who is right? It is a matter of opinion.

2. Your deductions in your point 2 are completely wrong - we will have to dedicate another 7 pages to debate those 3 points.

3. I suspected that you conferred with Koos about the Mauritz/Koos saga but never stated that and that is why I asked a question. With you always phoning the 'world', be it Mauritz, Woods, Kobus or other hunters it sort of made sense to me that I could not put it past you. So there is actually no reason to apologize as it is a question and not an accusation. In the same vain you were hinting that I wrote the letter under Kobus v/d Westhuizen's name and that is why you contacted him to see if you could expose me as a cheat. And then you decided to write to him as you were still not happy. In Q5 you ask the question who is guilty of being less than truthful - the straight answer is I am truthful. But don't take my word for it, let Kobus say it one more time.

4. The 160 gr Rhino bullet is indeed a 7 mm bullet and yes there is a mistake on the Rhino website

5. Gerard you are jumping to conclusions again when you reason ... "Today, fourteen days later, there is still no reply. Does this not indicate that someone is perhaps guilty of being less than truthful? " Kobus will answer you shortly on the forum, be patient.

I agree let us try not to be rude to each other - it takes 2 to tango.

Take care and let us bury the axes. It may take some restraint. I also promise not to refer to your bullets when I write about the Lutz Moller bullets, unless you want me to include your bullets in the pack. There could be a benefit for you if you want to. My test will be witnessed by other people with integrity, just in case you are concerned that I will 'victimize your bullets. I will only write what I see.

Regards
Chris

.

Chris, I am curious about the velocity envelope for the 9.3 mm 286 gr. Rhino bullet, as I have several boxes of them on the shelf above my reloading bench. How much does it expand and how much weight does it retain when fired into game at 2400 fps, and how does it do when fired into game at lower velocity, say at 350 yards. Thank you for your reply.

Alf,
I take it that the book arrived in the mail.

Alf,
So if we add the one sentence on page 206, which refers to the Sd of a sphere (which few of us still use in our firearms), we still have less than one page out of 300 devoted to Sd as a factor in bullet penetration and wound trauma. At less than one third of a percent, that about puts Sd and it's relevance to penetration in perspective.

Your comment
"But then it brings us to another topic that of wind drift....... I must say the minute you are shown up you revert to this: "it is so basic why should we even discuss it" quote."
leads me to believe you need to read my post again so here it is:

quote:

posted 05 May 2005 00:49
Alf

Alf says:
Does BC play a role ? Yes !
Is bullet weight a factor in BC? .... Ill let you answer that one.


The question was whether weight affects wind drift and the answer remains no.

The answer is within the very quote you use to seemingly prove the opposite.

Alf says:
wind deflection of a bullet will be reduced by increasing its ballistic coefficient - either by improving its ballistic shape, or increasing its weight, or reducing its diameter.

BC is a factor in wind drift. Weight is a factor in BC only in the sense that you take note of what it is, in order to do the math. Increasing weight does not neccesarily increase BC but you know that.

You can have bullets of the same weight and calibre with differing BCs and the highest BC will produce the lowest drift, if speed is the same and you know that too. You can have a 95gr bullet with a BC almost double that of a 500gr .458" bullet. Launch both at the same speed and the 500gr bullet will lose the wind drift race every time.

Why are we arguing over something as elementary as this?

If you really believe that wind drift is affected by the weight of a bullet, I have to ask whether you were smoking your socks when you dreamed that up. (This comment is to be viewed as light humour and a figure of speech. In no way is it intended as a rude remark and any perception as such, is unfortunate and regretted.)

Chris,

quote:

2. Your deductions in your point 2 are completely wrong - we will have to dedicate another 7 pages to debate those 3 points.

Those were not deductions that are open to debate. They are statements you made in print and concepts you have used in discussion. All are fallacies. Square cylinders are ludicrous, hydrostatic shock is a complete misnomer and stating that overstabilised bullets will tumble on impact, at the distances you claim to hunt at, is not indicative of a good grasp of gyroscopic stability.

Posting for Kobus (Rhino Bullets):

You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time, Gerry

Gerry what can I say? What words can I use to describe a person like you? I am lost for words. How you could believe that Chris would publish a letter making out as though I was the author, if the letter was not written by me. Only a total paranoid person would ever think something like that. No stable intelligence person would ever come to that conclusion. Do you really think Chris has rocks in his head?

Gerry do you really believe that there is a concentrated attack on you as a person? I see very little is written about bullets. Do you believe that other bullet makers give a toot about G.S. bullets? Do you believe that I am so thick as to I believe that if I can discredit you or your product that it would improve my bullet sales? Your bullet has never been and will never be a threat to my bullets or to my company or to Barnes – Swift Aframe or any other bullet company for that matter. Many of us thought that you had closed shop. I have had 2 telephone calls in the last 6 months where people wanted to know if I knew if you were still in business. They read somewhere on the Internet that you did not deliver your orders as promised and you could not be contacted by telephone. I want to make it very clear not once in the past have I ever passed a comment good or bad about you or your company, as I have never considered you a fret or a worthwhile subject to get involved with.

To you readers that do not now it takes months before one can get an import permit and all the documentation involved importing bullets into the States. All these problems stem from the U.S.A, ask Bill Isenbarger, it took him nearly two years to get through the red tape in the States and once we were ready we could not find a shipping company in South Africa who would handle the bullets to the States. We even contacted American shipping companies with out any luck No one will touch anything that involves the firearm industry from South Africa to the States. In the end I had to send by air costing me R28.00 per kg. Bills seconded order was for about 300kg. bullets. The first order went with out a hitch by sea this was before the U.S. clamp down. This has made the exporting of bullets from South Africa to the U.S. at a reasonable price near impossible on large scale. On small scale any thing is possible but how legal is it. It must be remembered that the S.A. Customs come and inspect every shipment so there is no way of hiding that you are sending bullets. So Gerry I hope you can keep your promises that you will have large stocks of bullets in the U.S. soon.

I did not answer your last email to me where in you inquired if I wrote the letter that I had, had published on the AR forum. There are two reasons for not answering:

1. After my letter was published on the A.R. forum. You had your normal attack of writer’s diarrhea. You could not wait to attack me on the A.R. Forum, later You must have had second thoughts (OOPSwhat if KOBUS never wrote the letter. let me write him a email and make sure) TOO LATE YOU HAVE ALREADY ATTACKED ME ON THE AR FORUM BRANDING ME A LIAR. Why the hell should I answer your email after you had already branded me a liar on the A.R. forum?

2. 2. Do you really believe that Chris Bekker would be so stupid as to write the letter him self? Do you believe my company or I would allow any one to write letters and publish them on a public forum with out my approval?

As far as our Telephonic conversation:

I owe you no explanation on how I plan my bullet designs, whom I use to test my bullets and how I interpret the information send to me on tests. I do not have to explain to you what my relationship is with these people. When you telephoned me to inquire from me about the relationship between Chris and my self I felt and still feel that it has #%$@# al to do with you. I did feel though that it was very important to stop any misinformation going on the net that Chris is part of RHINO bullets. I believe I addressed this issue twice now. Once about two years ago and again the other night.

PS.ROB is not on my payroll neither Maurtiz, or Doctari and I see there is a great article in this month’s Magnum where my bullets get a very good review. By the way the author is not on my payroll.

Last night I spend some time reading through the AR forum about the ongoing saga between you and Chris and Notice that you assume that all the bullets used by Rob did not penetrate properly. How can you make an assumption like that? Rob clearly stated that all Buff dropped within 25 meters. 25 meters to drop a Buff with a body shot with a 375 come on Gerry, drop the Paranoia and admit that only a great bullet can do this consistently. Shout it load with me (Long live the RHINO 375/380gr.)(Long live the RHINO 375/380gr.) Can you feel the paranoia leaving you? Are you feeling better? We bullet makers should stick together and help each other were we can. How come my company and I have good relationship with all the other bullet makers in South Africa and in Europe? I have a healthy relationship with Ken Stewart of Stewarts bullets and Jurie Nel from Goodnel bullets, with the guys at PMP and Kobus of Impala Bullets it is only you that has become a pain due to your Paranoia. I even got a Christmas card from Norma. I have exported about 8 tons of bullet heads in the last 24 months. Do you rally think I am going to lower my company and myself to your standards. Throwing mud at every person how does not agree with me.

I believe it won't be long before the AR forum will stop Publishing this ongoing saga between you and Chris as it is going no where only pulling in more people who really do not have the time for this S#$*.I am one. The rest of the forum must believe we South Africans are really a bunch of Clowns.

It is clear to me and I hope to any other sensible person on the AR forum that you are unable to be constructive when debating any topic. So as I said in my first letter I will not be drawn into this. No further communication between me and the AR forum concerning you will take place, as nothing constructive has come from it, only mud slinging. You can play in the mud as much as you like. Find another person to play with you. Leave me alone I do not have the time or inclination to argue about bull shit.

What has become very clear is that the people that have never shot Buffalo or has any experience with the 375/380gr. Bullet has the most to say. Before criticizing buy a packet of 380gr. And try them. They work well on all large size Game out to 160meters. To date this is the furthest a buff has been taken with a 375/380gr.

I would much rather take notice of Alf’s comments on my bullets and try and bring about changes to accommodate the softer North American animals than any of your or your crony’s ramblings.

Kobus
RHINO BULLES CC.

I was going to let this go but I have changed my mind it is time the people see what an opportunist you are:

This is what Rob Dufflield wrote on the AR forum

I pray that the new year finds you and your family in good health. Just a short note to let you know that the 380gr bullets that I obtained from you last year perform without fault (read perfectly). The attached picture is of a 380gr rhino bullet recovered from a buffalo (picture also attached),shot on the left shoulder and the bullet found just exiting the stomachin the groin area in front of the right back leg. The weight retention was 375gr exactly (98.7%).

Out of all the buffalo shot this last season (7 in total), we only managed to recover this one bullet due mainly to time. Not one of the bullets exited on any of the buffalo shot. The muzzle velocity measured on a chrony at 4 meters of of my 375 was an average of 2,055 fps. Just thought I would let you know that I will use nothing else on buffalo toback up my clients as not one of the buffalo ran more that 25 meters after the "Rhino" hit them.All my American clients were very impressed with these bullets.