While I am on my high horse, may I give my opinion of how a chest shot animal expires? And then throw it up for discussion?
This is based on my experience of human trauma surgery. The lungs in mammals are encased in a membrane, the pleura. They inflate and deflate because of negative pressure created by the movements of the chest wall and diaphragm. Any injury that penetrates the pleura or the lung causes the air to leak into the pleural cavity. with loss of negative pressure, the lung collapses immediately. In humans, if both lungs collapse, the patient dies within minutes
Most animals are shot through the thorax, rupturing the pleura of both lungs as well as the integrity of the lungs themselves. There is an IMMEDIATE collapse of both lungs. if the brain does not get adequate oxygen for 10 -15 seconds, humans lose consciousness. (Cape buffalo may be more resilient!)
My theory is that animals shot through the chest die because of collapse of both lungs. Loss of blood, shock etc are also factors, but not the IMMEDIATE cause of the animals collapse.
hence the superiority of EXPANDING bullets that give complete penetration.
lets hear from the experts!

"A properly paced bullet" - the higher the pace the more properly it kills.


Seriously - I'm no expert on killing but I would bet that REAL experts will tell you that short of a terminal CNS shot that blood loss is the best killer. Especially so in bipedal types since a double lung shot is a sideways affair.

To kill any animal, humans included, you must stop the function of the brain.

You can do this by destroying the brain out right, or by stopping the flow of blood, or oxygen to the brain.

You can kill a man, [or an animal], with out gunfire, by cutting off the flow of blood, or oxygen to the brain. First they go unconscious, [ie choked out], second they will urinate, then they will deficate, then they die.
It is all a matter of how long the brain has been without blood/oxygen.

If they have been taking drugs, especially "coke" or "meth" they can die a little quicker, ie just after becomming unconscious, especially if they have done a violent struggle.

The key to hunting is to shoot the animal in a "spot" where this occurs as rapid as possible, so finding the animal [and the animal's suffering, and death] is as quick as possible.

With the exception of brain hits I have found that shots that hit the top of the heart, severing the "plumbing" in and out, which usually gets both lungs as well, to be the fastest.

Also liver hits have been very effective as well.

High or back lung hits ie, heart not touched, seem to be more effective [quicker death] than low heart hits.

a rifle bullet kills by disabling beyond the point of repair, one or more of three systems

Electrical
Hydrolic
Mechcanical

utter distrupt one or more, and the critter is dead

totally agree with 450#2 .. heart shots are 50/50 that the animal drops in their tracks or runs 100 yards

think (it works with irons, too) that you have a scope. vertical inline with one leg, aiming for other leg, and 1/2 or 1/3 of the way up from the breastbone...

Macifej
all double long shots larger than a rodent are sidesways ... no critter has inline longitudinal lungs that I know of, but a 1/2inch slug in a rat's chest works

In very large animals, one needs large dia bullets, and deep penetration, to reach the intended internal organ being shot at. As has already been said the CNS (BRAIN & SPINE)that is disabled means death is instantaneous, no matter the bullet or speed. But the large tough bullet we use on things like Buffalo, and elephant are usually not instantaneous in a chest shot, and the animal takes longer to die, even if the heart, and lungs are hit. This is because the damage is in a smaller path,compared to the size of the animal, and very little hydrostatic shock is imparted to the whole animal. The hydrostatic is the domain of the fast paced, fast opening bullet, not the large slower ones.

The classic side on shot to the heart/lung package kills in two different ways, depending on the make up of the bullet, and/or the speed of the bullet. Cartridges like the 100 gr 243 bullet that is designed to open properly at 3000 fps, is devastating in the chest cavity. The high speed, and violent expansion liquefies, all the soft tissue in the thorax, and secondly, causes a sudden hydraulic blood flow in all directions away from the bullet. This causes the sudden high pressure into the brain, spine, and into the near by organs causing ruptures in all sorts of places that weren't hit by the bullet. The liquefication of the soft tissue, combined with the hydraulic high pressure damage, causes instantaneous death, because the back flow of the blood disrupts the brain function, by causing blood vessels in the brain to rupture. If this occurs the reaction is what happens when people say a bullet knocks an animal off his feet. Of course that isn't what happens, he simply looses all function, and falls to the ground.

Properly placed, a bullet that is designed for the purpose you are useing it will work every time, but the effect is faster, or slower depending on the size, and toughness of the animal, and the bullet type, and size used!

quote:

My theory is that animals shot through the chest die because of collapse of both lungs. Loss of blood, shock etc are also factors, but not the IMMEDIATE cause of the animals collapse. hence the superiority of EXPANDING bullets that give complete penetration.

I have seen how bullets that shatter (conventional or frangible lead-core bullets) the lungs instantly drop animals on the spot, but that typically happens on side-on shots that are just behind the shoulder that do not require deep penetration nor offer great resistance to the bullet. I have seen them drop like if shot in the brain.

FMJ bullets, like the millitary bullets, that are sometimes used by hunters, zip through the lungs leaving a small puncture wound. The expanding bullet with petals wide open going through the lungs severe more tissue and create a bigger hole. Also the stronger controlled expansion bullet is more versatile with angled shots, but they still do not drop an animal like the bullet that shatters the lung. That is why some people can shoot kudus with a .243 Win with conventional bullets (and in addition with light bullets) taking side-on lung shots.

Heart shots or severing the arteries just at the top of the heart creates more bleeding and remain the best shot for me, as the animal seldom goes further than 50 meters. Most of the time a heart shot involves one or both lungs. When a vital organ is missed or just nipped, the scenario changes significantly.

Warrior

Doesn't apply to elephants or hippo. The lungs are attached to the rib cage and you can poke as many holes in them as you like and they cannot collapse. Indeed, I have taken elephant with holes through both lungs that have healed up. Also the "tripple layer" skin and fat which move independently of each other seal over the bullet wound. If you kill an ele with a lung shot, it is becasue you hit an artery in the lungs and flooded them.

Not too sure on buff, but have seen them last 12hrs with a .375 solid through both lungs and a few other less well placed shots.

So we now have the following theories:
1. Sudden interruption of blood and oxygen to the brain caused by a heart/aorta/pulmonary artery destruction
2. Hydrostatic shock destroying the nervous system
3. bilateral pneumothorax caused by a double lung hit (which, of course, also interrupts oxygen supply to the brain rather quickly)

My guess is, all 3 are correct, depending on animal and circumstance. (Thank you, Ganyama, for your comments on large animal anatomy)

a) When any rifle round hits the top of the heart or the great arteries, the cause of death is drop in blood supply and oxygen to the brain; this is true of all almost all animals , especially the big stuff. i agree that solid bullets through the ventricles (low heart shot) takes a lot longer in very large animals, compared to the high heart shot. the spongy thick walls of the elephant ventricle tend to choke off the bleeding from a hole by a solid.
b)In smaller animals where the ratio of the bullet size and energy to the animal is relatively high, any chest area hit produces sudden collapse; whether this is due to nervous shock, hydrostatic shock, or what, I dont know.
c)in small and medium size animals, a sideways double lung shot that misses heart, vessels and spine kills by collapsing both lungs.

HERE is my simple analysis. IF you shoot any animal in the heart/lung area it will run off and die assuming you get enough penetration and energy transfer. I like big guns for this reason! I NEVER get enough PENETRATION. The animal invariably runs off a little way falls over and dies. Reason, no blood to brain. Usually takes a few minutes. Less time with bigger guns more time with smaller ones as a rule. Actually, I often head shoot game( especially if I'm not trophy hunting. intentionally. I usually spine them by accident! Same result though They drop on the spot. I like that! Reason- No Brainor connection to one left left! Finally if I MISS the above sacred spots. The game does not die for quite awhile. I track and track and walk and walk then attempt option 1 or 2.SOMETIMES THIS WORKS. REASON- I can't shoot straight anymore cause by then I'm too tired. -Rob

Not sure where this fits in, but one other thing that happens with a collapsed lung under pressure (aka tension pneumothorax)is that the vena cava gets kinked and venous return to the heart gets cut off. If the heart doesn't get blood coming to it, it has nothin to pump out.

EVERYONE knows that it is the fire and smoke that comes out of the muzzle that does the real killing!

Having been around enough gunshot victims and hunting victims I have but a couple of comments.

Humans are much more fragile than most animals. A shot to the lung is usually not fatal and I have seen someone run over 200 yds before being tackled after a shot through a lung with a 9mm expanding bullet (yes, he was on drugs). A double lung shot usually puts a victim into shock; however, duct tape over the wounds usually restores lung function (until the blood fills the lungs) And they can survive. So that exes out lung destruction as the cause of death.

Animals tend to be tougher. Pigs can survive on one lung indefinately and can run a long ways on a double lung hit. Elk can be just as tough. Even the fragile deer can run 200 yds on a double lung hit.

CNS shots are a sure stopper, but you can't always count on the perfect shooting position, rest, and shot presentation to take them every time.

This leaves us with two schools of thought. On succesful taking of game.

1) punch a big enough hole trhough the animal to cause massive blood loss leading to shock.

2)Transmit enough energy into the vitals thereby liquifying them and causing, you guessed it, shock.

Although shock doesn't kill the animal, it puts it down pretty quickly thereby allowing the CNS to shutdown. Both schools of thought work, but (I hate to admit it) the high velocity rounds tend to induce shock more reliably.

Case in point, my 30-06 leaves the jelly trail about the thickness of my thumb, usually kills in a reasonble amount of time, and doesn't damage much meat. The 300 Win Mag loaded with the same bullet left a jelly trail the size of my fist, and its usually a 5 step stagger and drop. The 375 and 458 wm leave a slightly larger jelly trail than te '06, but not as impressive as the 300 win mag. Some of the biggest wound channels I have ever seen come from the 340 Weatherby and the .338-378 weatherby (338 RUM is in the same league), if placed right, they drop animals like they were hit by lightning; however, meat loss can be a bit much (especially on the 338-378).

Enough of my touting Roy Weatherby's trifecta of cartridge design and the hydrostatic shock buzz. Truthfully, I have probebly unted more with an -06 more than any other caliber and it seemed to do the job, although not as effectively as the .375 H&H.

John

quote:

hydrostatic shock buzz

How does it work ... does the shock travel through the arteries and into the brain? Just wanting to better understand where HYDRO fits in.

Warrior

Warrior

If you hit the heart during the systolic phase, the animal dies instantly from a stroke. I presume the same is possible if you hit the right artery. Smashing a bullet through the Aorta or vena cava isn't going to kill through "hydrostatic Shock"

Buffalo appear to have brains to small or simple to be affected by a stroke

Lion and leopard collapse when hit with a high velocity bullet. This is usually ascribed to "shock". Despite habving been to the vet school, dissected many and had a look at the brains under a microscope - it does not appear to be hydrostatic shock causing a stroke that causes them to crumple. It is simply an overload of the nervous system. Why cats (and people) should react to nervous trauma I don't know. Humans can use their brain power to overcome the system collapse but cats cannot.

Rabid cats are impervious to shock - which in my mind at any rate, proves that it is not so much hydrostatic shock as system shock. NB- System shock/Hydrostatic Shock etc is still velocity dependent. A fast mushrooming or tumbling bullet causes the shock necessary to cause collapse. Fast solids produce neat, cuaterised holes unless they hit bone and cause secondary projectiles.

And yes, I know I have used the term "hydrostatic shock" on cats in many articles but that is just a useful phrase that at least partially accounts for what happens

/

Shock has little to do with blood presure, except that a loss of blood pressure can lead to shock. Truthfully, shock can be induced without any injury to the heart. And worse yet, the med experts admit they are not sure of the mechanics of shock.

Hydrostatic shock has nothing to do with blood flow, rather, the theory purports that a pressure wave comming off of a bullet traveling through tissue will damage additional tissues, especcially nervous tissue, thereby incapacitating a target.

Forencisitists have argued this point back and forth for years, my personal experience has shown that high velocity bullets (excess of 3000 fps) seem to have a magic for dropping critters. I also have seen 45 colt hard cast magically drop critters, so like I said, there are two schools of thought.

John

Energy transfer (or the lack of it) Varminteers know what this looks like in the extreme. Extreme energy applied to any type of taget gets extreme results (damage).

Pretty simple stuff really. E=1/2M[(V)2]

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Energy transfer (or the lack of it) Varminteers know what this looks like in the extreme. Extreme energy applied to any type of taget gets extreme results (damage).

Pretty simple stuff really. E=1/2M[(V)2]

Bad Squirrel, Bad Squirrel

quote:

EVERYONE knows that it is the fire and smoke that comes out of the muzzle that does the real killing!

Kind of reminds me of the question who killed the buffalo ... the bow or the Red Indian?

Warrior

quote:

The concept of "far off injury" due to the passage of a high velocity projectile is a subject that has been studied "to death" and no evidence of injury causing pressure spikes could be shown in the vascular system of animals shot in the heart or large vessels. If you so wish I can site a number of references that deal with this subject.

Alf,

Please provide further details, so we could understand the medical side a bit better.

Thanks
Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Energy transfer (or the lack of it) Varminteers know what this looks like in the extreme. Extreme energy applied to any type of target gets extreme results (damage).

And all this time I thought varmints exploded because the size of the temporary cavity exceeded the elastic limits of the tissue the bullet was passing through. Of course it leaves a fella to wonder just how large and fast a bullet would have to be to pink mist a Cape Buffalo...

/

Alf

Back to dissecting both people and animals... High velocity bullets cause tissue death for some considerable distance arround the wound which sloughs away if the individual recovers - this if far away from any "temporary cavity" effect caused by the bullet.

The best killer on Large plainsgame I have ever seen rifle wise as the 300 Win mag necked down to .17. 25grn Brass solids. Far more effective than the .720 which was the lads other rifle (1000grn bullet at 2000fps). 5000fps kills Zebra and Wildebeest with style!

Gunshot injuries by legarde and "the Manual of Small arms " are both classic references to the effects of bullets on people. The velocity at which secondary fragmentation occurs is around 1600fps. Explosive wounds occur at impact velocities above 2250fps. Of course. 30 cal bullets are relatively big (relative to people that is) and a .458 is relatively small compared to an elephant...so the criteria for causing explosive wound efffects in big game will vary.

This much I know from both the buff and elephant culls. Shock and velocity are irrelevant when shooting ele. An impact velocity above 2250fps can be a factor in dealing with a buff. Big holes work better, but a .458 Lott is a whole lot better on buff than a .458 Win.

Lion? Have shot more wild ones that I have ele, and a 9,3x62 flattens them just fine- with a soft point! Much better than a .458 Win with softs or a .375 with solids!. Have to agree with Taylor. A .416 @2400fps is the perfect lion medicine!

/

Alf,

Your comments don't address Ganyana's assertion that a bullet in the heart in systolic mode causes an over pressure in the circulatory system which in turn causes a condition similar to a stroke in the brain which causes immediate death (incapacitation).

I have seen Ganyana's comment repeated in other sources.

Do you say this is incorrect? If so, why? Kudude

Kudude, he did address it. You did not read this above?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
If you hit the heart during the systolic phase, the animal dies instantly from a stroke. I presume the same is possible if you hit the right artery.

Sorry, but it does not happen !
Forensic science 101 usually starts off with the question " what is death?" and how does it happen ?

The concept of "far off injury" due to the passage of a high velocity projectile is a subject that has been studied "to death" and no evidence of injury causing pressure spikes could be shown in the vascular system of animals shot in the heart or large vessels. If you so wish I can site a number of references that deal with this subject.

I guess you want the references cited now, so you can go look them up yourself? That is cool, whenever Alf has time to list some of them. He would be a good one for this, having specialized in surgery and having experience in the bush warfare of southern Africa, as well as having a keen hobby interest in guns and hunting.

quote:

If you hit the heart during the systolic phase, the animal dies instantly from a stroke

I am pretty sure this is not true. I have seen the heart of a buck that was blown open like an artichoke. The buck ran 100 yards, fell and kicked a half circle before expiring. There were two other hunters that saw the buck field dressed.

/

Precisely what I was thinking, Alf.

Of course a senile human or animal with arteries that were coated in rock-hard-calcified intimal plaque might be more likely to have some degree of a water hammer effect in the water pipes, hardened arteries. Might be more prone to sudden cardiac death from a clean miss too.

You guys are killing me with this circular line of SUPER BS.

If you want to get stuff blowed up mo dead, then use mo fasta and/or mo massive projectile....that's it - nothing else! All this medical stuff is hair splitting hair ball fur spitting crap. The equation is in the department of physics not vet. medicine.

Mist a big target? No problem! Use a BMG on a human - use a 35mm Oerlikon (Bushmaster III) on a Buffalo. Same result - Buffalo Juice.

I do think the Smoke and fire have a lot of (psychological) effect! 700 grains of FFFG anyone?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Precisely what I was thinking, Alf.

Of course a senile human or animal with arteries that were coated in rock-hard-calcified intimal plaque might be more likely to have some degree of a water hammer effect in the water pipes, hardened arteries. Might be more prone to sudden cardiac death from a clean miss too.

Wouldn't have to be hardened arteries for the intimal tear to have an effect. Intimal tear could disect distally. If that dissection occurred in the right artery (coronary, carotid, aorta) could be game over real quick.

I believe that when you shoot an animal through the heart, 2 scenarios are possible :
1. the heart is full of blood (diastole) and explodes like a water-melon. Collapsus is instantaneous ;
2. the heart contracts and expells blood (systole). Even a high velocity bullet wil only punch a hole through the deflated "sack". Blood will leak in the body cavity but the heart will still be pumping blood (albeit lesser and lesser) to the brain and the animal will run for a distance as long as the brain is irrigated.

So, the classic heart shot is only a 50/50 proposition in terms of instant demise.

Now, if you aim for the aorta knot (see "X" on drawing), you will immediately cut off blood supply to the brain (in effect, disconnecting the latter) and coma is instantaneous.


This is a deer's heart shot likewise (to better see the bullet hole in the aorta, I've slipped a piece of white paper behind the entry).


So far, I've recorded 11 deer which dropped at or within 2-3 paces of the place they stood when hit like described. This doesn't make a law yet, I know, but 11 consecutive examples do give food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by cable68:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Precisely what I was thinking, Alf.

Of course a senile human or animal with arteries that were coated in rock-hard-calcified intimal plaque might be more likely to have some degree of a water hammer effect in the water pipes, hardened arteries. Might be more prone to sudden cardiac death from a clean miss too.

Wouldn't have to be hardened arteries for the intimal tear to have an effect. Intimal tear could disect distally. If that dissection occurred in the right artery (coronary, carotid, aorta) could be game over real quick.

Ah, yes, but a mere dissection may not be quickly fatal. A dissection is merely the start of aneurysm or psedoaneurysm formation, not a full blown ruptured aneurysm nor transection of any sort, and they may dissect proximally as well as distally, and a hardened plaque is more likely to be a setup for injury, which may be oriented transversely and cause a turbulence generating flap, or longitudinally and be silent except for pain, which may be intermittently starting and stopping and stuttering slowly on to catastrophe.

There is a known case of a 23 year-old human male (Forme Fruste Marfan's Syndrome) walking around and going to work, etc., with an intermittently dissecting longitudinal dissection in the ascending aorta, causing no flap/turbulence/bruit, that took over six days of intermittent symptoms to finally extend into the pericardium and tamponade the heart, at which point he quickly expired.

And furthermore, we are being too loose with our phases of systole and diastole: we must specify early, mid, and late phases of diastolic relaxation/filling and systolic contraction/emptying of the heart.

Please let us be more precise if this discussion is to have any meaning at all!!!

quote:

2. the heart contracts and expells blood (systole). Even a high velocity bullet wil only punch a hole through the deflated "sack"

I think a 100 grain Sierra out of a 25/06 will blow any heart open.
As I noted above the buck's heart was blown into 3 huge petals and he still ran 100 yards. This buck had instantly zero blood pressure being produced by the heart.

Sometimes we need to ask the opposite question to get some ideas as to the direct question which is

quote:

how does a properly paced bullet kill

So lets ask this question.....

"how do Improperly placed bullets not kill.....

Or better yet..."How do properly placed bullets not kill?"

As to improperly placed bullets we know easily that leg shots and clean misses never kill as do shots to the tail, through the ear and all manner of shots that do not hit substantial mass of the animal or do not hit the brain cavity.

Then the question of properly placed bullets not killing are those of "surface blow ups".....any properly placed bullet that penetrates and carries destructive energy to the internal organs is likely to kill quickly. Even a solid that does not mushroom will eventually kill from loss of blood eventually. It seems the real value of the solid is to achieve penetration into deep flesh in very large animals and penetration is heavy bone such as skulls of elephants etc.

Another thing I've noticed is the relative size of the animal to the cartridge used. Use a .30-06 on a squirrel and we see quite the devastation to the carcass but when used on a 200 pound animal we see quite a different story and when used on a 1,000 pound Eland we find the need for deep penetration to produce results as the carcass is quite capable of sustaining the energy of the round and we're needing the damage to internals to accomplish our goal. Now try using it on ele and we darn well better hit the brain or accomplish serious blood loss or we'll loose the trophy for sure. WDM Bell knew this well and studied the brain location so well that he could reach it with almost any shot from a 7 X 57 and solids.

It seems to me that the method of killing is relevant to the relative size of animal we're hunting and when it comes to ele, rhino, hippo, and the likes we're relagated to deep penetration and either direct hits to the CNS or to eventual death to blood loss.....the faster the better!

This is one excellent question.....it does cause one to think and I'm not at all sure it has an answer but we do know that the term "properly placed" is key as well as "penetration"...loose either and we have a wounded or missed animal.

/

Alf

I gather you haven't shot several hundred buffalo or dissected several thousand elephant - not to mention a hundred or so people?

Also, Funny why the heads of the police forensic ballistics departments in Rhodesia and SW Africa during their respective terrorist wars came to favour .233 (with 1:12 twist barrels and 55 grn bullets) over .308 for shooting gooks?

Andre Mertens,

quote:

I believe that when you shoot an animal through the heart, 2 scenarios are possible :
1. the heart is full of blood (diastole) and explodes like a water-melon. Collapsus is instantaneous ;
2. the heart contracts and expells blood (systole). Even a high velocity bullet wil only punch a hole through the deflated "sack". Blood will leak in the body cavity but the heart will still be pumping blood (albeit lesser and lesser) to the brain and the animal will run for a distance as long as the brain is irrigated.

I have blown the heart to bits in 5 buffalo to date and NONE of them fell over! They all ran between 10 and 50 yards. I also blew the heart out of bull elk and he just stood there for ~ 1 minute and then he bunched up and fell over.

Hit a moose and blew his heart up too. He was running when I hit him and he went at least another 40 yards.

By the way, when I say I blew the heart up I did precisely that. All that was left of the heart was a handful of pink burger and a bucket of black snot.

So your "law" may work for deer (which species are you talking about by the way) but it doesn't seem to hold water with BIG deer (elk/moose) and buffalo.