Bipedal anecdote...

In the course of four tours of duty in Vietnam I was present at a couple hundred shootings. The phenomena commonly associated with 223R and 308W fmj hits at less than 50 yards to as close as three feet impacts were remarkably similar. Within twenty feet the subjects invariably recoiled backwards. That may have been a response to seeing the muzzle flash and jerking away from it in a backwards motion. This could also contribute to the statements made about "knocking someone off their feet...". Where the subject did not see the muzzle flash, the impact is much less pronounced, generally a solid thoracic cavity hit or multiple hits had the effect of the "shootee" continuing/staggering a step or two in the direction they were heading and sort-of fading downwards. I shot four men at four to six yards with separate full-auto 4-5 shot bursts. Blap, Blap, Blap, Blap...exactly THAT FAST!!! All four had at least three rounds center mass, and all four of them stood there staring at me for what seemed like forever; probably six to seven seconds before falling in place. One made an attempt to raise an SKS and fire, but dropped first. All four had complete exit wounds in the back, but none of the bullets penetrated in a linear fashion.

The phrase I have heard used most often is "Radial-Axial Micro-Second Tissue Displacement and Hydraulic Fluid Displacement..". There seems to be a rapid and violent pressure wave in the body fluids and veins,organs that causes tissue displacement and rupturing of blood vessels and other fluid carriers. Kind of like a cannonball from the high dive does. The impact is so immediate that the water has nowhere else to go except up and outwards.

I'm not an expert or a doctor, and I DID NOT stay at a Holiday Inn last night either. That's what I saw, and believe me, I remember every shooting in graphic detail to this day.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

So your "law" may work for deer (which species are you talking about by the way) but it doesn't seem to hold water with BIG deer (elk/moose) and buffalo.

I have seen a frangible bullet (130 gr bullet in 270 Win), that shatters, whilst going through the heart of a springbuck, rips the heart in shreads, whilst a Solid Mono-Metal bullet just makes a clean entry & exit wound through the heart of a kudu with a .366/286 gr bullet. So the type of bullet that is being used will make a difference regarding damage.

Warrior

Warrior,

In my case I was using 535gr and 570 gr Woodleigh SN, as well as 600gr Woodleigh PPSP. Muzzle velocities were in 2350 (600 gr) to 2500+ (535gr) range.

The hearts were beyond shredded! They simply no longer existed in any recognizable state. They had literally been reduced to a handful of pink hamburger like meat and a great deal of black slimy liquid aka snot!

The exception was a bull elk shot in the heart with a Barnes X bullet of .416 flavor at a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps. It did very little damage (acted much like a solid). The elk did even seem to notice getting hit.

This year I will be using 570gr Barnes TSX on a bull elk. I figure it will work just as poorly as my previous experiences with Barnes "X" bullets, but this is part of a bet. We shall see.

Scotts,
I've never shot a Buffalo, so I can't tell. I've shot a fair number of Red deer (European "version" of Elk) but took them as they came, without thinking about statistics. The game I'm most often confronted with and of which I shoot enough (4-8 / season) to think about experimenting is Roe deer, which is much smaller indeed. This being said, I definitely noticed a difference (within the numbers quoted...) between hits to the aorta and hits that centered the heart and/or blew it to pieces ; the former being the most decisive. I don't qualify to offer a solid explanation, so I'm just serving food to thought.

Andre,

If I am understanding your last post correctly, you are stating that severing the aorta worked better than removing the heart. In both cases the brain is 100% deprived of blood. So how does that account for any difference? I can see how a severed aorta makes tracking a great deal easier though.

For the record, I have noticed very little difference between double lung shots and heart shots in how quickly the big stuff drops when shot with one of my 500s. The only definitive way to put an animal down right now, is to hit it in the CNS, preferably the brain.

Scott

Cow elk heart, 232 yards with a .30-06 firing a 180 gr Barnes TSX @ a MV of 2750 FPS.

She squatted at the shot took three or four steps forward started to get "jelly" legs reared backwards and fell over. Nearly 5 minutes later when I got to her she was still breathing in short aginol(SP?) breaths but here eyes were glazed over.

Qote by ALF,

quote:

The size of the animal determines the physiological reserve. Size matters as we see from physiological science. In short the bigger the animal the longer it takes to become incapcitated or to die if similar wounds are induced based on physiological perculiarities scalable to size.

I have a hard time buying this in all cases. Elephants are the largest land animals and therefore should have the largest physiological reserve. Yet it has been my experience that elephants are easily killed with a high heart/lung shot with rifls in the 465-470 class. In my cases (4) the maximum distance the elephant ran was 50 yards. Elk or deer will often run 100 yards or more with the same shot even from a 375 H&H.

465H&H

quote:

Cow elk heart, 232 yards with a .30-06 firing a 180 gr Barnes TSX @ a MV of 2750 FPS.

Surestrike,

QuicLoad calculates your striking velocity at 2,303 fps. Even at this modest velocity the TSX, with typical double caliber expansion, seems to do substantial damage. I am curious to know if you ever retrieved the bullet or if it went straight through. Dr Asby supports with his experience that at such modest velocity penetration is generally deeper or right trough.

The solids with smooth round ogives are the ones that glide trough with minimal damage. My friend Pieter de Klerk only hunts with Barnes-X bullets. He even refused when I suggested thet he must try the newer TSX version. The moral of the story is that he swears by them and it is based on his extensive use of this bullet in 7 mm and .308 configuration, as a PH.

Warrior

Warrior.

That bullet exited the just behind the point of the off shoulder.

I am very please with the .30-06 at these velocities and 180gr TSX bullets on animals as big as elk. They work great on smaller deer and antelope as well.

I'd thing they'd be great on your larger antelope they do penetrate like the devil at these velocities.

Alf,

Thank you for your explanation of the bullet in the heart on systolic phase. Kudude

PS: Your other comments are generally in line with my understanding of causes of death from penetrating wounds. kd

Alf,
Why do you have to go and try to demystify the mechanism by which creatures die. Don't you know that people BELIEVE in "hydrostatic shock". Your like the kid on the playground who first told us that the Easter Bunny wasn't real.

All kidding aside, I have never examined a shot animal where the speed of incapacitation could not be directly explained by either perm. wound cavity, secondary projectiles/fragments, or the effects of the temp. stretch cavity on the "stretched" tissue.

I have never thought about it until now, but my experience mirrors that of NE 450 No2's in that animals tend to lose conciousness much faster when shot in the great vessles rather than the ventricles themselves. This makes sense as even if the heart stops pumping, the aortic valve will maintain some pressure in the cerebral vasculature. On the otherhand, if the vessles are disrupted above the aortic valve, cerebral blood pressure would surely drop to near 0 pretty fast as blood drained down away from the brain due to gravity.

Interesting discussion.

Wes

Y'all have it all wrong. Light (photons) entering the chest cavity from gunshot wounds kills, it's that simple !

In all seriousness, if the atricle(sp?)/aortic "knot" is severed, there is an immediate loss of blood pressure, specifically to the brain and the animal collapses far faster than a direct hit to the ventricles or double lung shot. Of course a "cranial lift" or properly executed neck/spine shot drops the animal in it's tracks.

That's the point I'm making too. It seems that severing the aorta provokes coma faster than a direct hit to the heart.

The best explanation that I've heard is that EVERY animal (including humans) has died of cerebral hypoxia (lack of oxygen to the brain). Period. This can be accomplished in any number of ways, but unless and until the brain itself is starved of oxygen sufficient to cause it's death, the animal is not actually "dead".

Cut off the blood flow means cutting off the oxygen. So, a bullet causing internal bleeding sufficient to disrupt the flow of blood to the brain will cause death.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Also, Funny why the heads of the police forensic ballistics departments in Rhodesia and SW Africa during their respective terrorist wars came to favour .233 (with 1:12 twist barrels and 55 grn bullets) over .308 for shooting gooks?

I am not an expert and know very little about shooting people, but I do know a little about governments and purchasing practices. Could it be that .223 ammo was cheaper than .308 ammo?

Rhodesia never adopted the .223 although individuals bought their own. The parks hunter/kill teams switched from 12 Guage shotguns to M16's for night work based on hard evidence.

I am not sure if the SW Africa police ever changed over to .223 before independence. The SA Army operating along the border certainly did.

No, the two men who picked up the data at all the contacts and de-briefed the troops independently reached the same conclusion.

quote:

Also, Funny why the heads of the police forensic ballistics departments in Rhodesia and SW Africa during their respective terrorist wars came to favour .233 (with 1:12 twist barrels and 55 grn bullets) over .308 for shooting gooks?

Favouring the 5.56 mm assault rifle in the bush war in Rhodesia has essentially to do with fire power over the old 7.62 mm FN, as a soldier could carry more ammo for the same weight.

Warrior

/

Ganyana

At close range the 223 rounds tend to fragement causing grerater wounding vs the US 308 rounds that in a human tend to go all the way through in one piece. However the West German 308 rounds tend to fragment like the 223's causing great wounding, and are more effective.

Still to kill the brain must die.
Causing a severe wound to the leg, damaging the femoral artery will result in death as fast as many chest wounds.

On deer sized animals I have found that lung shots kill quicker than heart shots.

Like wise on cape buff a shot that severs the top of the heart works much faster than a shot that puts a hole in the heart.

Still to kill, you must kill the brain.

The faster you do that, the faster the death.

Interesting; our special forces in Afghanistan seem to be switching from the 223 to 308! lack of stopping power is also the reasom for the rash of "new" calibers in the M-16 configuration, eg the various 6mms etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Rhodesia never adopted the .223 although individuals bought their own. The parks hunter/kill teams switched from 12 Guage shotguns to M16's for night work based on hard evidence.

I am not sure if the SW Africa police ever changed over to .223 before independence. The SA Army operating along the border certainly did.

No, the two men who picked up the data at all the contacts and de-briefed the troops independently reached the same conclusion.