The .460 seems to be hated by most but really loved by those who can handle it? Those who use it , as mentioned above, are toallt sold it and as jorge said, its penettration is supposed to be second to none with the right bullets?

The biggest Ruger #1 I have shot was a .375 H and I reckon a really big, high pressure cartridge would hurt! I think it was either Brian Marsh or Capstick who wrote of Cecil Riggs in Botswana (?) who had a pistol grip shear off his .460 when fired and made a mess of his face - I would make that stock as bomber as humanly possible!!!! I noticed a CZ .458 win stock cracking behind the tang...and although they are not the best bedded rifles, the old ZZK 602 is large heavy rifle an not that unpleasant to shoot in .458...

kayaker,
you said it, as the 460 woundabest, with he right bullets, is execellent. the problem is ONLY monometal bullets are intended for these speed... woodleigh and 510gr rem, and 500gr hornadys, are for a MAX of 2300fps impact.

I think i have a fair recoil tolerance, and I can not stand shooting an unbraked 460 weatherby-- 500gr at 2600fps.. but i find the 470 mbogo, 500gr at 2500, a decent experience.

Faced with a 30-06 or a 460 weatherby, in most siutations, I would djust hope the 30-06 had 220gr RNs in it.

460 weatherbies have a reputation for POOR penetration, due to the bullets shredding, but with a barnes or GS custom, they become portable drilling rigs.


The issue at hand, though, is a 460 weatherby in a ruger #1 , which is NOT a properly designed or weighted gun for heavy kicking rifles. I have shot 2 lotts and a watts in a #1.. and a couple 45/70s hot loaded in #3 (these suck, hard buttplate and all)...

FELT recoil is far higher in the #1 thana bolt gun with the same load.


o, I can barely imagine a harder kicking combination than this. Perhaps a 458lott at 7#, scoped, in a bolt gun would be... but I'd rather shoot that.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Positron,
This is an HONEST request to help. You speak of PA, so I imagine you are still from there.

Hop on a cheap, well in advance flight to houston, for a day or a weekend.

I'll pick you up either friday night or staturday.

We'll go to the range with my 550 express, loaded with 700gr at 2130, my 500 Jeffe, 535s at 2425 or 2450, and go bang away. We might even talk Forrest into joining with his lott in a #1. The range is about 20 mins drive from the airport.

If you come down, bring/send/buy some factory hornady lott ammo... and some 458wins, factory.

If you can spend the day banging away with these BRUTES you can be very content that you'll have fun with the 460.

if not, you saved a ton of money, as your maker doesn't have that reamer, and I doubt he's built one before.

With the 458 Lott and winmag loads, you will see the difference in the 200fps .. and what another THREE HUNDRED might feel like.

But, honestly, if you are injured by these rifles, I can't be held responsible.

You just can not imagine what 120# of recoil is, if you are staring at it from the position of a 375HH....

jeffe

Positron, if you can take Jeffe up on his offer you should. I guarantee you will learn a lot.

Jeffe, very generous of you. If it should come to pass maybe the 600 needs to come out and play. Some full cases of 414 and a 900 gr solid should be an education. Whoops did I forget the muzzle brake and mercury tubes again.

I own a 2 digit serial number, BBK-02 actioned rifle, stock by George Hoenig, barrel and action work by McGowan, sights and barrel band swivel by Ellis Brown (the guy who wrote the book on how to make a double rifle from a shotgun action) chambered in 460 Weatherby. I have owned two different MK V's in 460 also.
I have owned my custom since 1984, long before the 470 Mbogo, 450 Rigby, Dakota etc. I normally shoot 500 grain bullets at about 2200-2300 fps. I find the recoil not as bad as some of the 458 Lotts I have fired.
In all the writings on big bores I have read, the magic number seems to lie between 2300-2400 fps for the 500 grain bullet.
I don't particularly care for the belted case, but 20+ years ago, it was the only game in town on my budget. Even with my 2 MK v's I never was able to get the velocity that Weatherby claimed, and personally think it was more of a dream than a reality, but again that is just my opinion. Also I was only using the powders available over 2 decades ago....I am sure things have changed with the new powders.
Anyway, just wanted to put my ideas into this whole discussion.
I do have to agree about SSK being very hard to work with. A few years back I asked about one of his cartridges and his reply was something along the lines that you would have to be an idiot to want one. Go figure.

CongoMike,
yep, if you load the 460 to 2200-2300, the recoil will be less fast than a lott, at the same speed, but might be a tad "more" due to powder charge...

but a 460 webby is 500gr at 2600fps, right? Weatherby says so
http://www.weatherby.com/products/ammo.asp?prd_id=13

My point is, if the guy wants to shoot a lott, he can buy that off the shelf, and it's 2300 with a 500.

2600 is a ELEPHANT of a different continent..

jeffe

Mental retardation is hardly the issue here!

Nor do the Special Olympics include Ruger No.1 460 Weatherby shooting events!

Seriously, the Ruger No.1 handles the 500 A-Square just fine, and that is a bit more than the whimpy 460 Weatherby.

Use a barrel that is 27" long and a straight taper contour to 1.000" at the muzzle. Use a badger picatinny rail in the quarter rib position and use 4 scope rings to hold the scope on. In 500 A-Square, it will weigh 10.75 lbs, muzzle heavy.

Then you can weight the butt to balance (1/2 pound of lead or mercury).

Glass bed the butt and forearm to full contact.

Add a screw on brake and a reasonable scope with 4 rings and you will be approaching 13 pounds.

Attach a long bipod to the forearm or use shooting sticks from a sitting position. I do not recommend prone position.

Soon you will be lobbing 750 grain Hornady A-Max with BC of about 1.050 at 2250 fps to bullseye at 1000 yards with a 5 mil holdover ... if you can read the wind.

I have fired about 200 rounds of various 500 A-Square loads through this rifle, mostly 750 grainers at only 2150 fps, and no cracked stock yet.

Bell and Carlson has a synthetic stock for the Ruger No.1 that I have been meaning to order as a backup, just in case ...

I can't believe it. I hope its not true that some of you guys think the .460 WBY is a big kicker. Its NOT! Maybe in a 5lb gun but even in a Ruger No. 1 anybody with average strength can shoot one just fine. your chance of getting hurt by one is slim and none. Maybe a real weak person could let it torque itself out of their grasp and get wacked in the cheek but thats about it. You won't let that happen the next time. I do think Jeffe's offer is a good one and I do always reccomend trying something before spending money on it, but if the guy has the bucks and wants to build a 460on a Ruger number 1 so what. haven't we all built some crazy stuff? I sure had trepidations the first time I lit off a 12GaFH load offhand! Didn't really know if I could handle it. In the end, I learned it was no problem. Everyone who shot my 585NYATI at the STC pig hunt commented on how it didn't kick nearly as bad as they thought it would. JDJones is a legend in his own mind and I for one would not seek his advice period. When I talked to him about my .600Ok idea he told me I was a fool and that it would never work. Guess he was wrong huh! I don't think he liked the idea that maybe some nobody like OM-WA could put such a project together and make it work. I'm not mad with ol JD I too just dont have much use for him or his wonders.-Rob

I shot my bosses 460wby mkV at the range the other day with factory ammo and factory break. He used this same gun on a 100lb elephant several years ago.
When I got home and laid down I told my wife, "I'm glad I bought a CZ Rigby!"

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I can't believe it. I hope its not true that some of you guys think the .460 WBY is a big kicker. Its NOT! -Rob

OK, but I understand that you may be one of the few people alive that can shoot a full power 577 T-Rex.
Honestly, the general concensis is that 460 Webbie on a Ruger #1 is a bad introduction to bigbores.
However, I recall you were teaching a little lady to tame the recoil of a 416 Rigby. I'm not being a dickhead here, but maybe you can accompany jeffe and others on educating positron on bigbores. Honestly I mean this in a goodway. I deffinatly respect what you have to say on the matter.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
MAcD: Allow me to cast another dissenting vote on you eschewing the 460 Weatherby as a dangerous game round. It is FANTASTIC. If full power loads are too much, one can always down load, but with modern bullets, NOTHING penetrates like it. But to the subject at hand, I have strong reservations about a dangerous game rifle as a single shot. jorge

Jorge,I understand that you like your WBYs, push feed rifles, and I have no problem with that, or with anyone who wants, or has one! Your post is your opinion, and is one answer to Positron's question.

However, you are not asking the opinion of me, as he was, if "I" believe it is a good idea! If you were, then I'd tell you what I think of the 460WBY, and especially when chambered in a Ruger No1, the same way I told him.

That said, I have never understood why anyone would buy a rifle chambered for a cartridge that to use it, had to down load it to the level of a well ballanced cartridge below it.

The 460 WBY cartridge has never even lived up to the claims of WBY, Loading the 460WBY down to a comfortable shooting level,or so soft points will not blow up, is like buying a car with a HIMI engine, with 500 HP, and wanting to run it on regular gas,then woundering why the engine pings! My opinion is, if you want to shoot at LOTT levels, shoot a LOTT, not a 460 WBY, and if you want regular gas performance, buy a little six cylinder!

IMO, all WBY cartridges are badly over bore, and the double radious case is gimmic, that does nothing except make the owner buy brass from WBY. The cartridges are so over bore,and build so much chamber pressure they need a long free bore to avoid dangerous pressures!

They are so over bore capacity, that they produce a muzzle blast that would start a forest fire in dry weather. To get the velocities WBY advertizes, one must load to extremes. The pennitration is no better, or straiter than a LOTT.The only place in the world more pennetration,than the LOTT with a 500 gr solid bullet might be needed is with a going away shot at an elephant! Both will shoot right through an ele, or buffalo in the shoulder/heart/lung area, or from end to end on a buffalo. What I mean by that is, more is simply not needed!

The only thing the 460WBY does better than the LOTT is burn more powder, and develope more recoil, and muzzle blast, and to be comfortable to shoot , must be loaded down to the LOTT level, which is not needed either. IMO, the only reason the 460WBY exists at all is because of Weatherby's NEED to say, "LOOK AT ME!"

Like the 600NE, and 700NE, the 460WBY is a solution to a problem that didn't exist! When the 460NE came out, it was to fix what the 458 WM lacked, it did that. However the fix was a problem on the opposite end of the spectrum with over kill. All that was wrong with the 458WM was a lack of powder capacity, and the, then wildcat, LOTT fixed that with no drawbacks, being what the 458WM should have been in the first place!

PS: this is an edited version of the first post to Jorge! Sound better, Jorge???????

Just to clear something up with you guys and I really appreciate the advice. I have no plans on using this gun on dangerous game or game for the matter it is simply just something to shoot for the hell of it. That is why I am not spending all the money on a weatherby or fancy s#$t like that. But I do plan on shooting powerful loads out of it. In fact Conley Precision Cartridge makes a load that shoots a 600grain bullet at 2490fps. for the 460 Wby. Man I can't believe how many replies this thread got I guess its not a crappy post after all Hogkiller.

Originally posted by MacD37:
"Jorge,I understand that you like your 460WBY, and WBY push feed rifles, and I have no problem with that, or with anyone who wants, or has one! Your post is your opinion, and is one answer to Positron's question. "

Mac: I don't own a 460 Weatherby but I've seen a couple of PHs that do, in CRFs BTW, but I do own a few Weatherbys and I ideed like them very much!

"However, you are not asking the opinion of me, as he was, if "I" believe it is a good idea! If you were, then I'd tell you what I think of the 460WBY, and especially when chambered in a Ruger No1, the same way I told him. "

I think ANY DG caliber in ANY single shot is a dumb idea/



"The 460 WBY cartridge has never even lived up to the claims of WBY"

Yes they have. I've chronographed several Weatehrby calibers in cluding the 460 and they attain published velocities


"IMO, all WBY cartridges are badly over bore, and the double radious case is gimmic, that does nothing except make the owner buy brass from WBY."

Can't argue with that too much, although in my opinion the 300 Weatherby is arguably THE most versatile caliber extant.


"The cartridges are so over bore, they burn more powder outside the barrel than inside, with a muzzle blast that would start a forest fire in dry weather. To get the velocities WBY advertizes, or to burn all the powder you would need a barrel 3 feet long. "

Now you're just stating an opinion not a fact. I get published velocities with "normal" length barrels and I've yet to set any forest fires (Well I did once when one of my MK82s went a tad long and detonated in some Florida Pine trees, but that's another story

"The LOTT will pennetrate far better than the 460! "

Baloney. With the advent of premium bullets myriad test have shown nothng out penetrates a 460.

"IMO, the only reason the 460WBY exists at all is because some folks NEED to say LOOK AT ME"

I can say the same thing about double rifles for general hunting with the exception of elephant hunting. I've seen more botched and missed shots due to those inaccurate moth eaten anachronisms than I have wih ALL bolt actions combined.

" When the 460NE came out, it was to fix what the 458 WM lacked, it did that. "

concur...

"However the fix was a problem on the opposite end of the spectrum with over kill."

do not concur.

" All that was wrong with the 458WM was a lack of powder capacity, and the then wildcat LOTT fixed that with no drawbacks, being what the 458WM should have been in the first place!"

concur.

In reality all the "big 45s" even the 458 WM do a great job. That the 458Lott is more than adequate no argument from me here, but there are other choices out there, like the 450 Rigby, Dakota and 460 Weatherby. I never cared much for the 600 or 700, but in the unlikely event that I could afford--or want-- a double, it would be a 500 NE. jorge

Positron, I'm sorry you got the wrong idea about the answers you got to your post. I don't think anyone was calling you names, only offering opinions of the idea! It is a great thing that we live in the USA, where we have so many personal rights, and can buy anything we can afford, or even if we can't afford it!

As far as useing the rifle for a DGR,or not is your choice. The big draw back to that is the SINGLE SHOT rifle! SOOoooooooooo what I am saying is, don't leave this web-site, because whether or not you choose to accept it, you will get good advice here! Jorge, and a few others here like the 460WBY, and many like the Ruger No1, but few like them together!

Jorge, you read my post before I edited it! My wife was bugging the hell out of me to go pick up my grand daughter, and rather than loose what I'd written, I posted it, figureing you wouldn't read it before I got back to edit it! The final would have been far better, I assure you.


In regard to your last post, many of the things you took exception to, were those I would have changed! One thing for sure, you can't un-ring the bell, or call the bullet back!
I am, however, going to edit the post, because you, and I are not the only ones reading these things!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Originally posted by MacD37:
..."The LOTT will pennetrate far better than the 460! "

Baloney. With the advent of premium bullets myriad test have shown nothng out penetrates a 460.

..jorge

Jorge, except for very FEW circumstances, loaded to their factory rated performance, BULLETS in the lott will out penetrate the 460 webby... BECAUSE the webby destroys bullets, they fail due to velocity, come apart, and shread. Bullet failure reduces penetration..

Unless you are sooting a monometal bullet (Barnes or others) or solid, there are NO softpoints in .458 designed for 2600 MV/2500impact velocity.

jeffe

Okie-doke Mac. I went back and re-wrote some things to be sure. Regadless, I think you and I are basically on the same sheet of music. Jeffosso's comments shed even more light on the 460, and he has a valid point on the penetration issue, but I could have SWORN I read somewhere (reputable, mayb North Forks?) that with modern premiums the 460 was the "penetration king" but then again it could have been with solids as Jeff says.

Bottom line: If I said anything to piss you off I apologize ahead of time. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Bottom line: If I said anything to piss you off I apologize ahead of time. jorge

You have nothing to apologize for Jorge, I don't often get angry, especially ove r crap that goes on on the net! Good shooting Jorge!

To be perfectly honest, I'd KILL for a double rifle! jorge

Uhh, Jorge, if your serious, there is this .500 N.E. that my ex-wife kept...along with half my military retirement pay.

quote:

Originally posted by prof242:
Uhh, Jorge, if your serious, there is this .500 N.E. that my ex-wife kept...along with half my military retirement pay.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
My question is, why would anyone want a 460WBY in any rifle, much less in a Ruger No1?

460 Roy on a 10 twist heavy contour barrel shooting Woodleigh 550 grainers at 2350 fps might be fun...maybe...umm I don't wanna know poisonally. I like my 404J !

Actually the 460 ain't big enough.
That is wht we took same brass and
made 550 Mag. Run heavier bullets,
dies and reamers easier to make.Ed

Ed,
the 550s aren't really a good comparison on recoil velocity... the gents building 550s (either mag or express) have had the good sense to properly weight their guns AND don't try for 2600fps!!! for example, my 550 express is 116# of recoil, at about 22fps (iirc)... the 460 weathrby is about 120, at nearly 30fps...

"it hits twice as fast" is a good way of putting it... and in a #1, with it's skinny butt and drop, kicks bad.

jeffe

Tony Sanchez-Arino, in "Elephants, Ivory and Hunters" states that the velocity of the .460 Wby makes it a poor upclose DG rifle as a bullet with a velocity greater that 2400 ft/sec can and will deflect off large bone mass.

He did say, however, if you shot an elephant at 100 yards with the .460 Wby that it would be an ideal rifle - but from what everyone who hunted elephant has said, the rush of elephant hunting is up close and personal with those beasts.

Form someone who has shot a hair under 2000 Buffalo, over 1000 elephant, and hundreds of Rhino, Leopard and Lion, I'll take his word for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Positron:
.....That is why I am not spending all the money on a weatherby or fancy s#$t like that. ....

Umm by the time you purchase a barrel, and pay to have it installed (plus the total loss in value to the basic rifle itself) it would be less expensive to sell the Ruger (as is) and purchase a used Weatherby.
You claim to have a BS, do the math.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Actually the 460 ain't big enough.
That is wht we took same brass and
made 550 Mag. Run heavier bullets,
dies and reamers easier to make.Ed

Hubel, you are absolutely correct! By opening the 460WBY case up to .550 dia, the case is no longer over bore, and the large case is justified! By doing the .550, the velocity drops to an acceptable level, and bore size can use the powder capacity of that large case! That is what makes the 460WBY so over bore, the case capacity is too large for a .458 bore! If WBY had taken the 375H&H case and opened it up to .458, and blown the case out straight, to form their rediclous double radius shouldered case design, the cartridge would still have solved the 458 WM problems, without being so over bore capacity,of the Weatherby,and they wouldn't have had to crap cann the very fine FN Mauser action they were useing, for the push feed thing they use today, and would still have gotten credit for the fix! If they had done that, I would be a Weatherby fan too!

I will tell you that I still do not reccomend the 550 Mag cartridge be used no a Ruger No1, unless a very heavy barrel, and a restocking with more stock meat.

many years ago, I spent an evening with Pat Wolfe head warden at Skakuza in the KNP. He said the favorite rifle for elephant culling there was a Sako coverted to 460 wthby. It was his favorite, and everyone elses, but he got first dibs on it.
As for J.D., I remember him calling Competitor Corp, and giving them holy hell for chambering "his propriatory cartridge" and listing it in their chamberings. The cartridge .... the .458x2" The mans an ass is all I can say.

I see not problems with a Ruger No. 1 chambered in 460 WM. None whatsoever. It should be a real neat gun for plinking when it is done.

577: Tony's commnet was based on older bullets and not the super monolithics we have today. With those, the 460 IS the penetration king or close to it. jorge

quote:

577: Tony's commnet was based on older bullets and not the super monolithics we have today. With those, the 460 IS the penetration king or close to it. jorge

I'll take the opinion of the guy who has "been there and done that" over the weekend armchair quarterbacks any day.

The 460 is not really overbore in what we think
the term means, like 264 Win....99% of 460s
aren't used where penetration is an issue anyway, IE target, deer, etc.No one that
has one that I know here goes to africa.
So lighter bullets at high velocity make
it a good for longer ranges.
As for use in a #1 gun can be beefed up to
hold. JD himself beefs them up for bigger
cartridges.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by 577NitroExpress:

I'll take the opinion of the guy who has "been there and done that" over the weekend armchair quarterbacks any day.

Exactly. TONY is the one who among others, expressed that sentiment. Since I am fluent in Spanish, I make it a point to speak with Tony whenever I go to SCI. Matter of fact, I once had the great opportunity to be on the same flight when leaving Reno and we spoke at length, While the 460 Weatherby I don't recall came up per se, we have one more than one occassion spoken about modern premium bullets and penetration. I don't think Craig Boddington is an armchair QB and he says basically the same thing.

Wish I had the time (or inclination) to dig up the data, I'm pretty sure it's been posted or linked to here, but with modern premiums, like the TSX and the monolithic solids, a 460 will is pretty close to the top when it comes to penetration. Hey, not trying to convince or prove anything to anybody and so as not to get off track, a single shot rifle for DG, regardless of caliber is still a dumb idea. jorge

Of course the 460 Wby would be an excellent penetrator with a proper Flat Nose monometal solid that is not too long and with a barrel twist rate that is not too slow.

Any detraction from the 460 Wby would come from using:
1. the old round nose FMJ solids of 500 grains
or
2. the 500 grain round nose brass solids:
and
3. the old barrel twist rates of 16" or even 18" in ye olde 460 Weatherby rifles

These would be bad for any .458 caliber rifle.

For a most effective 460 Wby penetrator:

450 to 465 grain FN copper solid
(SD of .307 to .317)
2500 to 2700 fps
10" or 12" barrel twist

The heavier bullets penetrate better if they are stable: Requires a balancing act with twist rate, bullet length, and nose shape.

The faster bullets will penetrate equally well in the most useful 2500 to 2700 fps bracket: the faster ones do more damage on entry then settle down to equal penetration in this velocity range.

Elementary.

Old slow twist Weatherby barrels and crummy bullets were the problem, not the velocity.
Flat nose solids can help overcome a slow twist rate barrel if you are stuck with it.

jeffeosso,
Why is it that recoil with a ruger #1 recoils


harder than the same caliber in a bolt gun ? I agree with you, I have a 458 lott, in both a #1 and a ruger m77 and the #1 seems like it kicks alot harder, why?

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
jeffeosso,
Why is it that recoil with a ruger #1 recoils


harder than the same caliber in a bolt gun ? I agree with you, I have a 458 lott, in both a #1 and a ruger m77 and the #1 seems like it kicks alot harder, why?

bigdoggy700,
What is the weight of your two guns in question? Not the combined weight but the weight of each one separately. Hint hint.

I can't recall if the "footprint of the butt" and the drop at the heel are any different, but I will go check.

rip,
The recoil feels alot different than the 1/2 lb difference in their weight. 9 1/4 lb vs 9 3/4 lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
the 460 was the "penetration king" but then again it could have been with solids as Jeff says.

With a 1-10 twist the 460 will be a fabulous penetrator. With the old 1-18 twist it was a substandard penetrator (due to premature bullet instability).

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
rip,
The recoil feels alot different than the 1/2 lb difference in their weight. 9 1/4 lb vs 9 3/4 lbs.

I just weighed a brand new .458 Lott RSM and it was 10 lbs even. Wood varies. The drop and butt print are hardly different.

There may be something about the forearm grip dynamics or the balance and relative overall length: the No.1 muzzle blast will be 4" closer to your your ear/face than an equal length barreled RSM.

A lot of recoil perception is psychological.

I find any recoil differences to be only relative to the 1/2 to 3/4 pound weight difference.

rip,
I have quite alot of big stuff, I have shot 700 nitro, 585 nyati, 500 nitro, 460 weatherby, 450 dakota. I was just surprised the first time I fired my 458 lott ruger #1. It has been a while since I shot it, but I remember it seemed to smack me pretty darn hard. Maybe I was on dope that day, but I certainly remember it. thanks for the input