I was reading an article by Craig Boddington, and he mentioned on how a friend who was hunting elephants had two frontal shots fail to penetrate enough to kill the animals. Follow-up shots were required by others to break down the elephants and finish them off.

The friend was using a .577 Tyrannosaur, and a subsequent check of the ammo's MV showed it to be less than 1800 fps. Apparently with the frontal area of the big bullets, that was not enough velocity to reach an elephant's brain.

I wonder how often people get really big bores, and then wind up using downloaded ammo to help tame the tremendous recoil?

Wouldn't they be better off with a .416 or .470?

BH63

BH63,

I think the answer to your question would be yes. You don't need a cannon to kill anything.

Mark

I agree with Mark. A 375 H&H has killed on the planet quite well for a long time. Use what you can shoot accurately with loads that were made for the rifle. Downloading the rifle sorta defeats the purpose, don't you think?

For me personally, 416 Rigby or bigger.

" Downloading the rifle sorta defeats the purpose, don't you think?"

kinda takes you back to the BIG BPE rounds being supplanted in Africa over 100 years ago

by much smaller caliber cordite/nitro rounds with much greater velocity
(IE 303, 6.5x54 etc)

Therein lies the downfall of using Sectional Density as the primary measure for potential penetration. A better measure of the bullets potential is the diameter to length ratio (given a short ogive). A .577 bullet of same SD will be a much squatter bullet than one of same SD that is .416 or .458. The squatter bullet will have less force per square inch, even if it has the same total force as a narrower bullet of same SD.

When you cannot shoot it effectively because you're flinching, that's too much gun.

George

If you would read the terminal bullet performance thread, all answers you seek will be there. do you know what bullets were used?

Put another way, too much gun is any gun too big for you to handle.

As long as you can handle it, there is no such thing as too much gun.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Put another way, too much gun is any gun too big for you to handle.

As long as you can handle it, there is no such thing as too much gun.

X 2 !!

This is not the first time I have heard the 577 T Rex fail on elephants.

And on previous occasions it was not the low velocity.

Personally, I have used only two other guns on elephants apart from the 375.

A 416 Weatherby Magnum and a 416 Rigby Improved.

Both killed all the elephants I shot with them, just as well as the 375 H&H and the 375/404.

No difference in performance whatsoever.

I remember very clearly the first elephant I shot.

I had a Remington Safari in 375 H&H rifle, and the elephant was a few yards away.

My PH said I should step to the side from behind the bush, and brain it.

I was very conscious of how small my rifle was, and I worked it in my mind that I would fire, reload, fire, reload and so on.

At my shot, the elephant dropped stone dead!

I bet he was dead before his head hit the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Put another way, too much gun is any gun too big for you to handle.

As long as you can handle it, there is no such thing as too much gun.

X 2 !!

X 3

What an utterly stupid saying from Hagel!

If everything goes wrong, it matters not what gun you use, otherwise it would not have gone wrong in the first place!

Use a rifle you can shoot accurately.

That is it.

Put the bullet in the right place.

The silly notion that a bigger caliber will make up for lousy shooting is just that.

Plain silly.

I think the point is to be able to shoot accurately the rifle/gun that you have in your hands. And have that rifle be proven.
As I shoot my 458 Win well enough . That is Enough Gun for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
What an utterly stupid saying from Hagel!

If everything goes wrong, it matters not what gun you use, otherwise it would not have gone wrong in the first place!

Use a rifle you can shoot accurately.

That is it.

Put the bullet in the right place.

The silly notion that a bigger caliber will make up for lousy shooting is just that.

Plain silly.

I respectfully disagree....provided that you shoot that rifle well. Things may have gone badly, without a shot fired, and through “no” fault of the hunter! If things truly go bad.... better to have a “lot” of gun you handle well, than a “minimum” gun you handle well! memtb

Like horsepower there is no such thing as too
Much gun in the hands of someone who can handle it! Everyone has got to know their limits. Frankly I don’t believe this story/myth as 1800fps is a very low velocity for a 577 Trex and not a load this gun was designed for. I owned one and shot it a fair amount at 2500fps. Not that difficult either.

I probably shoot more large caliber rifles than a lot of people.

I do it for fun, and enjoy it.

But for hunting?

I really cannot see the point of carrying a heavy, large caliber rifle for hours each day on a hunt.

When my 9 pounds, fully loaded and scoped 375/404 can do anything I want.

In any dire situation, one most probably only have the time and chance for one shot.

And he better make sure that shot counts.

I have been with people carrying large calibers, surprising a wounded buffalo a few feet away, when both of us fired.

My shot brained it.

His hit the buffalo in the knee!!

He was using a double in 500 of some sort!

I wonder what would have happened if I was not there.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I probably shoot more large caliber rifles than a lot of people.

I do it for fun, and enjoy it.

But for hunting?

I really cannot see the point of carrying a heavy, large caliber rifle for hours each day on a hunt.

When my 9 pounds, fully loaded and scoped 375/404 can do anything I want.

In any dire situation, one most probably only have the time and chance for one shot.

And he better make sure that shot counts.

I have been with people carrying large calibers, surprising a wounded buffalo a few feet away, when both of us fired.

My shot brained it.

His hit the buffalo in the knee!!

He was using a double in 500 of some sort!

I wonder what would have happened if I was not there.

As well as you shoot, you could even go smaller if you liked!

I went from a .458 WM to a .505 SRE (.500 NE ballistics in a bolt gun) to a .577 VSRE (.577 NE ballistics in a bolt gun). I had no problem shooting the 12 pound .577 VSRE for the first shot.

However, the irresistible push which its recoil represented always shoved me back two paces, and my experience in Africa taught me that there are situations where two paces are not available.

I stayed with the .505 SRE, with its very handy weight of 8.75 pounds, about the same as that of my M1 Garand rifle, which I trained with as a Marine recruit.

This is an endless debate but always interesting. As Michael Robinson said it's too big if you can't handle it and Craig has had problems shooting the larger calibers.

Saeed s point is well taken : Manners killed hundreds of elephants with a .375 and for culling in the Kruger the rangers used 7.62. / .308 military , essentialy solid rounds. Do we dare mention Bell. However, if you read the older hunters books like Sutherland, Feldman, Rushby, the Rhodesian hunters, they favored the .577 NE doubles, even after trying .500 doubles. Clearly, you need the velocity for penetration for a broad diameter bullet and the SD on a .577 is marginal versus a .416 or .375/.404 Saeed or like my .375/.505. Also they used their NE .577 s for follow up heart shots if the elephants were running away, clearly effective. One of the most dramatic videos of this is Aaron Neilson s shot of a running away elephant he shoots in the shoulder with his .577.

I can shoot 20 rounds in a "standing" (sitting) with my .577 double (at 2100fps), Gibbs.505 or .375/.505 but they are heavy and that is the downside but with a big belt holster they are fine.

As pointed out by others, shoot what you are accurate with, with good penetration, and then use thethread on bullet performance since it is very good for looking up the penetration for various calibers and bullets.

We were hunting elephants, and came across a bull we wanted to shoot.

The bull was walking along, and we ran parallel to him to catch up.

He was below us, and relatively far 40 yards may be.

He senses us, and turn towards us.

I fired a frontal brain shot at him from my 375/404, using Barnes Super Solids 300 grains.

My PH fired at the same time for the heart, through the trunk.

The elephant dropped down in his tracks with a perfect brain shot.

There was no bullet hold in his chest from the 460 Weatherby Magnum my PH fires???

We found that the bullet entered the trunk, changed direction 90 degrees, and went on its way causing no damage at all!!

When I had a run in with a black rhino, it was charging my PH, who was facing in the opposite direction. The rhino, which we were following down hill, had circled around and gotten behind us, and was reacting to the PH snapping his fingers to draw our attention to him.

I shot four times, one hit in the neck, two at the shoulder and one "Texas brain shot" as he disappeared into the underbrush. My PH emptied his .470 William Evans double rifle at him. A post mortem revealed that one of the .470 bullets had keyholed into the rump and only penetrated a few inches. The other had hit the horn, mercifully a glancing blow, causing little damage.

The shot in the neck was the result of the rhino slamming on the brakes when he caught sight of me out of the corner of his eye. The bullet exited causing no noticeable effect. He did a 180 degree turn and started back the way he came. I put the other two bullets in the top of his shoulder. They proved to be fatal in about 100 yards.

At the time my bolt gun held two on the magazine and one up the spout. Still, I managed to reload and get that parting shot off by the time my PH had emptied his double rifle.

From then on, I didn't hesitate to face dangerous game by myself.

XAUSA. And what were using? We don't see much on calibers for rhino but probably same holds true as discussed above although I ve never shot one. Been charged twice though and got lucky on a third.

PS. There are a lot of experts on here who use .470 s and my only experience with a .470 is one buffalo. Whether true or not I ve read that when the .450 doubles were outlawed by the British, hunters noticed the .470 did not have as good a penetration as .450 NE. Bigger diameter, Less SD with same load.

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
XAUSA. And what were using? We don't see much on calibers for rhino but probably same holds true as discussed above although I ve never shot one. Been charged twice though and got lucky on a third.

I was using my wildcat .505 SRE, based on a shortened .460 Weatherby case and firing a 570 grain FMJ bullet at 2150 fps, the same as a .500 NE. In fact, the bullets I used were Kynoch .500 NE bullets, sized down from .510" to .505". The rifle was a much modified P14 Enfield with a 22" Buhmiller barrel and a Lyman 48 receiver sight with a sourdough front sight on a Williams ramp.

Eventually my gun bearer found a way to load it with three down, which later came in handy in an encounter with a herd of Cape buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
When I had a run in with a black rhino, it was charging my PH ...

At the time my bolt gun held two on the magazine and one up the spout. Still, I managed to reload and get that parting shot off by the time my PH had emptied his double rifle.

From then on, I didn't hesitate to face dangerous game by myself.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I was using my wildcat .505 SRE ...

Eventually my gun bearer found a way to load it with three down, which later came in handy in an encounter with a herd of Cape buffalo.

xausa,

Please do elaborate on how the gun bearer added one cartridge extra of magazine capacity to your .505 SRE.


Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
When I had a run in with a black rhino, it was charging my PH ...

At the time my bolt gun held two on the magazine and one up the spout. Still, I managed to reload and get that parting shot off by the time my PH had emptied his double rifle.

From then on, I didn't hesitate to face dangerous game by myself.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I was using my wildcat .505 SRE ...

Eventually my gun bearer found a way to load it with three down, which later came in handy in an encounter with a herd of Cape buffalo.

xausa,

Please do elaborate on how the gun bearer added one cartridge extra of magazine capacity to your .505 SRE.


Rip ...

I suspect he did what I did first time I hunted buffalo.

I had a Remington Safari 375H&H, and I remember I had to force it to take one more round in the magazine and feed one into the chamber by hand.

At the shot, the magazine bottom opened, and my ammo dropped to the ground!

Saeed,

If that is how the gun bearer did it, how could that be handy in an encounter with a herd of cape buffalo?
I hope xausa will let us know ...

Until then, doodling some recoil calculator numbers:

My .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 2012, CZ 550 Magnum, 26" barrel:
300-grain GSC HV, 90.0 grains H4350
2859 fps MV, 5445 ft-lbs KE of bullet
Recoil Impulse ............................ 5.7 lbs-sec

My favorite .458 Winchester Magnum LongCOL load in the WinCzechster, 24-7/8" barrel:
400-grain GSC HV, 82.0 grains AA-2230
2506 fps MV, 5577 ft-lbs KE of bullet
Recoil Impulse ............................ 6.2 lbs-sec

Hornady factory .458 Win. Mag. SAAMI load in 24" barrel at Hornady laboratory standard conditions:
500-grain DGX Solid, 71.8 grains of "Hornady" Powder
2140 fps MV, 5084 ft-lbs KE of bullet
Recoil Impulse ............................ 6.3 lb-sec

A-Square manual for the .577 Tyrannosaur, 26" barrel:
750-grain Monolithic Solid, 177.5 grains
2473 fps MV, 10,183 ft-lbs KE of bullet
Recoil Impulse ............................ 11.9 lb-sec

The recoil velocity and recoil energy can be lessened with a heavier rifle, increased with a lighter rifle. Recoil impulse is unchanged.
I like "recoil impulse" to level the scores considering all such calibers in the same weight rifle.

Now where is xausa's explanation of the gun bearer's rifle loading technique?

Never let a gun bearer touch your rifle, right?

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
xausa,

Please do elaborate on how the gun bearer added one cartridge extra of magazine capacity to your .505 SRE.

Rip ...

RIP,

I wish I had some explanation of how it came about, but I can only speculate that I had been in error in thinking that the magazine only held two down and that the gun bearer corrected my error. The rifle, as stated, was based on a P14 Enfield action. The trigger guard unit had been straightened and the magazine capacity reduced from six to five .30-'06 size rounds. Why I and the gunsmith who built it assumed that it would hold only two down, I can't say. It took the encounter with the rhino to open our eyes.

I used the same rifle on two other African hunts, always with the same PH and the same gunbearer, and he always loaded three down from that day on.

xausa,

Ah ha! The exception to the rule.
Gun bearer did good.
Thanks for clearing that up.

Rip ...

I only have two rifle loads.

150g Partiton clocked at 3000 fps out of my venerable 60s vintage 270

570g A-Frame or Barnes Banded Solid at 2300 fps out of my 500 Jeffery.

Recoil on both is neglible offhand. I'm a little careful with the Jeffrey off of the bench.

XAUSA. Thanks for the info. Great combo! For my Gibbs .505 I asked here on AR about adding a round given it's a CF and two suggestions were offered. One, take the bolt out and load the round on the bolt and feed it into the chamber that way. That worked. The other was a gunsmith modification of the bolt face, which works, but I suspect has maybe some danger with extraction.

quote:

two suggestions were offered. One, take the bolt out and load the round on the bolt and feed it into the chamber that way.

Both my P14 based rifle and other Springfield 1903 based rifles are controlled feed, yet they allow single loading into the chamber, which Mausers do not. Mausers can be altered to permit this, but there are some fairly convincing arguments against that.

I think the arguments against making a Mauser M98 capable of pushfeeding
like a Pre-'64 M70 are greatly exaggerated.
The Mauser still has controlled-round extraction,
however it feeds.
A Pre-'64 M70 lacks the extractor tongue bevel of the Mauser.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder: Frankly I don’t believe this story/myth as 1800fps is a very low velocity for a 577 Trex and not a load this gun was designed for.

I went back and reread the article. Actually it did not state specifically .577 Tyro, but only a .577 double, so it very well could have been a .577 NE.

Good catch, my bad!

However, the point remains valid, big bores are only effective when shot at the correct (i.e. specified) velocities.

Deliberately downloading (or buying factory downloads) with lowered velocities can have a big impact on the penetration of large diameter bullets.

Just as pushing light bullets too fast can result in horrible performance, so can pushing heavy bullets too slow.

BH63

I dunno, I've read a number of accounts of guys poking 400+ gr .475 bullets completely thru plains bison . Started a 1,000 fps or less. With shoulder shots.
Granted a 475,476 ect is not a 585 bullet. But then they were only going around half as fast.
If it was a 577 N.E. and the bullets were only starting at 1800 fps. Maybe that was to slow to stabilize ??

I think anything bigger is better if you can shoot regular powered ammo. Big bores downloaded, in a way, defeat the purpose of that caliber. If you can't shoot full powered 458 or 470, then your better off going with a 416. If you can't shoot a 416 at 2200 fps with 400gn, then your better off going with a 375. Extremely large bores such as 700 and above have a reputation of less pentration and I belive that is because of shooting a bullet that more resembles a slug than a bullet. Proper sectional density(longer bullet) and correct barrel twist rate matter more in my opinion.

I just finished a chapter in "Africa's Most Dangerous" by Kevin Robertson that talks about caliber/cartridges for cape buffalo.

He makes a good point that any "big bore" that has much more than 2400 fps MV will probably do more bad then good when shooting buffalo.

He stated, that besides having recoil that negatively impacts the shooting accuracy of most hunters, the danger of shooting clear through one animal and wounding another is too great.

He went on, to state that the worst day of his career as a Professional Hunter, was when a client, using a .460 Weatherby Magnum, shot clear through a Cape Buffalo and wounded not one, but two other Cape Buffaloes.

A true PH's nightmare.

He says he has choreographed factory ammunition for some big bores and finds they don't always live up to the published specs.

Having a 500 grain bullet going 2 or 3 hundred fps slower than the published numbers can have a very big impact on penetration.

BH63

The big bores are fine for the right folks, but I believe that few hunters are 100% honest with themselves about recoil....others are looking for recognition with the purchase of a 577 or 600..Penis envy at work in so many cases..

I like the 404, 416, 425 and even the great .375 H&H, even the 9.3x62..I get kinda hanky with a 458 Lott and up. I get away with shooting them, but I have to concentrate not to flinch whereas I can shoot the 40s with no more thought than a 22 L.R.

Know your true rercoil limits, not some imagined dream..