The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores westley Richards 425Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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GBE, Will check it over the weekend and confirm dimensions of the new brass, as well as firing some loads, Nick | |||
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I had 2 serious cases of case cracking with Bertram brass in my 416 rem and threw away 300 odd cases.. BE CAREFUL OF THAT CRAP. And these were not hot loads or anything of that nature. | |||
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The Clymer reamer drawing for the .425 WR shows a leade-only throat with 0*30'00" semi-angle for the leade. I would certainly like to hear from anyone with an original Westley Richards rifle in .425 WR as to the length of bullet free-travel from case mouth, at maximum case length, to contact with start of the lands. What is the distance of the bullet jump? From the never-ending .458 Win. thread:
OK, the reamer chamber length is 2.840" minimum, while the reported maximum length brass for the .425 WR is 2.650" according to Pierre van der Walt. That would be a plus-tolerance on the chamber length of 0.190" greater than maximum brass length, while that on the .458 Win. is only 0.020". That is weird! The reamer above is for the ".425 Westley Richards-Full" which might be some kind of wildcat or what? Sumbuddy who know? I printed that reamer drawing in 2003 from the Clymer website that was available then ...  Rip ... | |||
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It is funny to read Pierre van der Walt talking trash about Jack Lott's opinions on the .425 WR. That was Pierre's schtick. As Ross Seyfried is on the .458 Win., so Pierre van der Walt is on Jack Lott. Actually Jack Lott was quite approving of the .425 WR in his 1981 GUN DIGEST article: "If you own a 425 Westley Richards Magnum in good working order, don't rebore or rebarrel it. It is an excellent choice as-is for African dangerous game, Asian dangerous game or even large Alaskan bears and moose." That, even though Jack also said: "I invented my own version of the 425 which offers no "improvement" since it uses a standard 425 chamber. I call it the 425 Lott, which is simply a 425 without a rebated rim as made from shortened, neck-reamed 404 brass. To accommodate the larger diameter rim I use an extra 98 Mauser bolt with face opened up to accept the 404 and then I have both eliminated the problem of jams (which do not occur with my 425s) but mainly I do not have to turn down the rims (rebate) which is a big saving on time and effort." Pierre accused Jack of not having any experience with the .425 WR. Jack said in the 1981 GUN DIGEST: "I have never hunted with a 425 despite having owned three in best quality and still owning two ..." The only thing Jack could have done to improve on his informative 1981 article was to not make it seem like the 425 WR of 1908-1909 pioneered the magazine-repeater DGR. The 404 Jeffery did that about 4 years earlier, 1904-1905. Rip ... | |||
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Still not seeing how the .425WR beats the .404 Jeffrey from similarly-sized rifles (i.e., 22"-24" barrels). All The Best ... | |||
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That Clymer reamer for ".425 Westley Richards-Full" maybe more FOOL than FULL. It cannot be for the .435-caliber bullet:  Ah, well, it still might be the case that the .458 Win. got its throat patterned after the .425 WR which worked miracles with a limited case capacity and short COL. The .425 Westley Richards Magnum was the first "Short Magnum." Makes sense that Winchester engineering might look to it for a throating pattern for the .458 Win. I hope someone with an original WR .425 WRM can check their throat and let us know if it is a long one. Rip ... | |||
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The rest of this great article from GUN DIGEST 1981 is posted on the .458 Win. thread: http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/4821083332/p/66  Rip ... | |||
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Primed the new Bertram brass I received and ready for loads!, I’ve checked the spec of the brass with the details on the previous post. The brass is in spec. I actually loaded 5 empty brass cases into the magazine, and hey presto, they cycled through the action and into the chamber and ejected!!!! The side clips actually move and open up when you cycle the bolt! Looks like I got a good one!!! Now to the shooting !! | |||
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nickh, Looks like you got a "Best Quality" .425 WRM. You lucky dog. Sure would be nice if an owner of a Best Quality .425 WRM by WR would check out the length of the throat and let us know if it is a long one.  Where are those Birmingham Proof House cartridge and chamber drawings when you need them? Rip ... | |||
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AJ
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RIP how do you measure the throat? happy to check it for you. Nick | |||
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I see. So having a 'standard length' Mauser magazine is important to .425WR fans? Is that also why .425WR rifles are known to be so feed-finicky - unless oodles of time and money are devoted to doctoring-up said standard length magazine? Perhaps had the WR designers started with a magnum-length mag box, it would've all worked out smooth as butter and with less fussage in the field. All The Best ... | |||
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425 WR ...... but here is the question: Are they feed finicky or is it that who ever has built a feed finicky specimen does not know the "how to" I have a theory and its just theory ! Leslie Taylor did not come up with the rebated rim theme for the Mauser action that distinction goes to Richard Schuler with his 11.2 x 60 later to be followed by the 11.2x72 the 12.7x70 and off course the rare 10.75 x 70 (404 Schuler magnum) Richard Schuler patented this concept in Germany in 1904 5 years before Leslie Taylor came up with the 425 in 1909. The primary issue was not the use of the stripper clip but the bolt head on a standard Mauser M98 action which was designed for the M88 Rim | |||
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At the time, Mauser supplied only Rigby with the magnum actions. That is precisely why Jeffery designed the 404 and W.R. came up with the 425 - both for standard length actions. Besides that, the magnum is merely longer than the standard. Bolt diameter is the same. | |||
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The rebated rim is discussed in this article and one point is that the smaller rim is thought to reduce bolt thrust. In my mind, it would act in just the opposite way. In fact, I once tried to discuss this with another collector with a theoretical physics background and he claimed the same. How can this be? Pressure is F/A (force divided by area) So... doesn't that mean that the same force (dictated by powder charge, case capacity, and bullet weight) would exert a GREATER rearward pressure against the bolt as that force is concentrated upon a smaller area? Seems obvious to me. https://www.school-for-champio...ure.htm#.W2cVfPkrI_4 | |||
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P = F/A so F = P x A P = Chamber pressure exerted on the inside of the case, including at the bolt face. F = Bolt Thrust Pressure is a constant for the given load. A = Bolt Face area upon which the pressure is exerted Bolt thrust (F) is directly proportional to both pressure (P) and area (A). F = P x A Bolt thrust is decreased as A decreases and pressure is constant. Bolt thrust is decreased as pressure decreases and A is constant. Those pre-WWI steels were not as strong as post-WWI steels, and were post-WWII steels even better? The article by Lott didn't go into the specifics of gun steel improvements, but it happened, and bolt thrust is no issue for bigger rim diameters and higher pressures than "18 long tonnes" or whatever. Yep, Jeffery stood up to a bigger rim. Shuler used the smaller rim and no magazine side clips. WR's Leslie Taylor beat the Germans at engineering in this case, with his case and rifle combo. I have a Dakota 76 action that will handle the rim rebate of the .500 Jeffery just fine with no side clips on the magazine rails. It engages plenty of rim with the bolt face. Rip ... | |||
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The diameter of the rim would not change the force on the bolt. If the diameter was reduced "the pressure" would increase as would the reverse. Think of a woman in high heels Vs snow shoes. Or a nail Vs a nail with the point cut off or a blunt knife Vs a sharp knife etc. | |||
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I had a 425 WR at one time, with the clips it never failed me, It was an all time favorite but got offered 4 times what I paid for it and down the road it went...In later years a Dentist friend of mine gave me a WR that was a 425 rebored and rechambered to a .458 Win...It had the clips and was an awesome gun..After shooting it for sometime without a single failure I cut the long tube back to 24 inches, turned the barrel down, inserted a matching wood dowelll in the barrel channel, milled off the excess and inlettled it for the newly turned barrel, re-engraved the barrel, refinished the stock, and did some other work on it. It came out at 9.5 pounds, kept the clips in place..It fed slicker n snot and I sent it back to Dr. McConnell, So.Car..He was blown away with it..It was a fine rifle. Feeding problems with rebatted rims were primarily with the cheaper version without clips..Rebated rims have gotten a bad rap over the years and the BS carries on...Properly tuned, they work, the .284 is a prime example..and the clips have been foolproof in my experience, why wouldn't they be they push the case directly into a chamber. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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What I would do without having any special tools is to load a bullet a long way out, into an empty case, without to much neck tension, then chamber it.The bullet should be pushed back somewhat into the case.Measure the length of the case with the seated bullet up to the point on the bullet where the lands are engraved.Then subtract this length from the trim to length for that cartridge. | |||
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nickh, Just a slug pushed into the rifling of throat and held there with a pencil, plus a cleaning rod and a Sharpie or another pencil, and some length measuring devices, dial caliper and tape measure, that is all that is needed for a good measurement. See Randolph S. Wright instructions. Be sure to cock the rifle action when measuring the length from muzzle crown to breech bolt face. Uncocked, the firing will protrude against the wooden dowel or cleaning rod (with a flat-faced jag) and shorten this measurement, causing error.
Rip ... | |||
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 So easy to forget: The internal surface of the rear of the case is what generates the bolt thrust! Just reducing the rim size will not reduce the bolt thrust! It would be same for 404 Jeffery rim or .425 WRM rim size since base of case is same for both. No good reason for the rebated rim except for use of 8x57mm stripper clips. Rip ... | |||
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Allows for a bit thicker metal in Mark V 378 based calibres. Also, from memory, it was to use the 45/70 shell holder. | |||
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I think Mike and I are agreeing but the math suggests we are wrong? Can we get into the weeds a bit more here? In the F=PxA the A is area that the pressure is applied to, right? In the case of a self contained cartridge it is the entire inner area of the case. The pressure is the result of expanding gasses from the powder charge exerting in all directions not just rearward. Greater the area, lower the force. Smaller area equals greater force. Same powder charge in a smaller case generates higher pressure, correct? This has been demonstrated in all of the bottleneck cartridges with bigger volume (450No.2 & 500No.2 among them). So, how can reducing the rim diameter equate to lower thrust on the bolt face?? Now in practical terms, my belief is that the rim diameter is irrelevant in high pressure cartridges as it is known that a clean brass case adheres to the chamber around 10K psi. So, the bolt thrust is only momentary until the case sticks to the chamber walls. I think primer protrusion is proof of this happening. How else can a primer be expelled out farther than the face of the cartridge? So regardless of the physics involved in the mathematical model, does it really apply to high pressure ammunition in actual real world application? | |||
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Huvius, I sure would love to have seen one of those cases with the cracked rim sectioned. It's not pleasant imagining worst-case scenarios with a catastrophic failure at that juncture. There is hope, even when your brain tells you there isn’t. – John Green, author | |||
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Something else to consider. Lets compare a 458 Lott/450 Ackley to a 6.5/300 Wby and both loaded to the same pressure and same amount of powder. The average pressure in the 6.5/300 will be much higher. On the other hand it will be there for less time  And something else. If we had a 338 Winchester with a 24" barrel and a 264 with a barrel of length so the volume in the 264 barrel (in front of the case neck) is the same as the 338 and equal pressure and same amount of powder they would both develop the same kinetic energy. | |||
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My 425 was as smooth as butter and appeared to have little work done other than the clips with no issues at all. However, My two friends 404s are the ones that required "doctoring up" and still not perfect feeding. Oh, and yes, the standard M98 is my preference to any magnum type. | |||
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It is complicated, eh? But F = P x A is still correct. That smaller diameter pedestal of brass around the primer hole on a rebated case is taking a greater beating: Same pressure giving same bolt thrust to locking lugs, but concentrated at the bolt face by a smaller rim face area, transmitted to it by an even smaller cross-sectional area of brass in the extractor groove. Maybe that could have something to do with cracking the brass in that area? And an extractor claw would be grabbing a smaller area of brass on the rim for extraction if the case did get sticky from high pressure. Somehow the .425 WRM worked. I think it was due to a throat like on the .458 Win. That kept pressures down, effectively increased case capacity for internal ballistics. I hope nickh will tell us how much jump to the lands from his .425 WRM case mouth. Rip ... | |||
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nickh, I doodled this before finding the excerpt from Randolph S. Wright above:  It is quite intuitive after you have done it one time. If you use a regular bullet dropped nose first into the chamber, held in place with a pencil instead of a dummy cartridge as shown here, you have to measure the ogive length of the nose. Ignore that. Simplest: Use a flat-based bullet dropped base first into the chamber and held in place by a pencil/dowel, then all you have to measure is the distance between the two marks on the rod down the barrel: One mark on the rod is with the rifle empty and cocked, distance from crown to breech bolt face, and that is the barrel length = A Second mark on the rod is with the flat-based bullet pushed into the rifling, measure from muzzle crown to base of bullet = B C = brass case length A - B - C = Length of Bullet free travel from case mouth to start of rifling. That will give an idea if the .425 WR has a long throat similar to the .458 Winner. A chamber cast would cinch it. Rip ... | |||
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Thank You, RIP! I've heard many very educated folks claim that the rebated rim reduces bolt thrust. Wasn't buying it... Anyway, back on topic. I kind of was thinking the same about the cracks - walls of the case stuck to the chamber walls and the rebate cut just thinning the brass enough to sort of core out the base and push it back. Too bad I didn't section one to see if that was the case. Sure looks like it externally though. I do, however, have some original LT Capped bullets for the 425. Making those would be a fun project if one could come up with the proper dies for stamping out the nose and dies for forming. Not very complicated actually. They really are quite interesting.  | |||
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Leslie Taylor sure was proud of those bullets, put his initials on them. Rip ... | |||
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LT was a genius ! During the Boer WR came up with a cup point bullet for the M96 Mauser Pistol and hidden under those caps, were cup points  | |||
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RIP thats a lot easier to follow!! I will give it a go over the weekend and get back to you the measurements. cheers Nick | |||
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nickh, Thank you very much. I have a great, new respect for Leslie Taylor, as Alf seems to have had all along. I now suspect he invented the .458 Winchester Magnum style of throat. It allows a short magnum cartridge to perform all out of proportion to size. Push a flat-based .435-caliber bullet, base first, into the rifling at the end of the throat, using the eraser end of a pencil, or a wooden dowel. If the flat base of the bullet is slightly rounded or beveled, then that small length of less than full diameter bullet can be subtracted, from the length of bullet free travel, to give a more accurate measurement of total effective free-bore. Rip ... | |||
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I think I have a copy of WR's 425 original Birmingham Proof house drawings.... will go digging tonight ! It may contain the chamber and Leade dimension as well. | |||
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 Rip ... | |||
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RIP: I have some 6 or 7 copies of various 425 Drawings from the Birmingham Proof house bu sadly none show the leade dimension as shown on the 404 drawing.  The rebated rim patent    ] | |||
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Jeffery Taylors brat vs Jeffery's spawn this is pure nostalgia ! if this does not raise the blood pressure nothing will ! The WR is a original with a capped bullet the Jeffery is a old RWS offering form the 70's  | |||
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Thanks for the effort there, Alf. I just got the .425 WR reamer drawing from PT&G which Dave Kiff notes is from "Proof House." That means Birmingham I hope.  Anyway, it shows a leade semi-angle of 2*00'00" and 0.080" length of Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore of 0.436" diameter. Comparing that to the CIP 404 Jeffery throat of zero PSFB and 1*25'20" leade starting at a base diameter of 0.424", the .425 WR is little different. If that is the way it was, the .425 WR was not the inspiration for the .458 Win. throat. I hope to see about Dave Manson's specs too. The .425 WRM is still the "Mother of All Short Magnums," to quote Baghdad Bob. Here are a couple of pics snagged from the internet that show the spring-loaded magazine side clips, also described as "fingers" by some. Bolt open, also showing the shaping of the vertical-stack magazine follower:  Bolt closed:  I am imagining what they look like, extending down into the box, spring pressure making them move toward the centerline of the vertical/in-line stack, holding the top cartridge when bolt is open, and I presume the'fingers"/"side clips" get pushed away from centerline, moving back laterally, out of the way against magazine sidewalls, when bolt is closed? The patent drawings on those would be interesting. Rip ... | |||
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Annotated for guidance:  Rip ... | |||
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