Ive been enjoying the well written and very informative "Any Shot You Want" and found this gem on page 175:

quote:

... This is, of course, to say nothing about the ear damage caused to others around your partners on the skeet squad, or your tracker or professional hunter out on safari. Even if you don't care about yourself, a muzzle brake causes permanent damage to those people. Even if you don't care about them, you should consider the decrease in effectiveness to a professional hunter whose ears are ringing like sirens when he is trying to track a wounded animal.

As a responsible firm, with a solid engineering background, the A-Square Company cannot not and will not ever place a muzzle brake on a firearm. There is no question that permanent hearing damage will result. There are a number of other firms coming to the same conclusion. Starting in 1995, literature from some professional hunters in Tanzania, Zimbabwe and Botswana has clearly stated that if a client shows up in camp with a muzzle brake, he must either dismount the muzzle brake, use another rifle or be sent back to the airport. I believe this policy will be come widespread

Any one ever hear about this policy? I guess the need for cash has over ridden the health and safety of the professional hunters and trackers.

I did see one U Tube video discussed on the African forum where the PH held his fingers in his ears while the client blasted away. Multiple, bad shots I might add with the PH in a very poor position - his weapon shouldered. This at a critical time when either the target elephant or hidden companions could charge.

I only know of three ways to control recoil. Add weight to the gun, add a break, or shoot a smaller caliber. At one time I had a .458 Win Mag with a break. It was easy to shoot but you're right, the noise was indeed a problem. I can shoot the big guns but my choice in reducing recoil was always to move to a smaller caliber like the .375 or the 9.3X62 which is a joy to carry and shoot.

Jeff is now working on a .577 for use in a standard action gun. A 750 grain bullet in an eight pound rifle at 2100 fps would indeed be to much for this old man.

There is one caveat here. If I ever get the urge for a 600 OK, it will weigh twelve pounds and it will have a break.

I have a muzzel brake on two of my rifles. The only time i use it is for sighting in those rifles. For hunting with those rifles I take the
muzzel brake off and I use a theaded muzzel ring
to protect the theads. This works for me.

Damn good idea!

I am able to shoot my big guns from the bench for sighing it but it's not fun is it? That's why I usually work up one good load and stick with it to minimize the amout of time on the bench. Usually, when they are sighted in, not much more time at the bench is required except to check the zero befor a hunt.

quote:

Jro45 said:
I have a muzzle brake on two of my rifles. The only time i use it is for sighting in those rifles. For hunting with those rifles I take the
muzzle brake off and I use a threaded muzzle ring
to protect the threads. This works for me.

Best of both worlds. A very reasonable idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Damn good idea!

I am able to shoot my big guns from the bench for sighing it but it's not fun is it? That's why I usually work up one good load and stick with it to minimize the amout of time on the bench. Usually, when they are sighted in, not much more time at the bench is required except to check the zero befor a hunt.

I use a VRS rifle rest on a tri-pod that allows you to stand up, yet still have a very stable rest for accuracy. The standing up significantly reduces recoil from the bench position and have used it for 500NE and other big caliber rifles.

I rather have the recoil! I have a bad left ear now because of a brake on a 300 Jarret that was shot beside me with a brake on it. If I was a guide or PH I'd never let a client use one with a brake. The muzzle thread protector is a good fix and like you say practice with the brake and then take it off for hunting.

I am a PH and have lost over 40% of my hearing in one ear and over 60% in the other and suffer severe tinnitus every minute of every day....... and it's a real pain in the arse!..... most of my deafeness is due to muzzle brakes. I've even had someone let 3 shots off from a braked .416 Blaser right next to my ear whilst I was holding my binos to my eyes and telling him not to shoot yet....... and consequently I hate the bastard things.

There are several other alternatives:

Fit a mercury tube or tungsten bead recoil arrestor etc.

Shoot a smaller calibre if you can't handle a larger one.

Get used to shooting a large calibre.

I also wish I'd discovered Walker's Game Ears a few years earlier.

Muzzle brakes are a fuc**ng abortion that should be illegal worldwide.

Steve,

Having lost a great deal of hearing in my right ear from a "too close" gunshot (but better than had it hit it's mark), I have thought about those Walker Game ears.

Do you have the muff style or the "in the ear" kind? I am interested in the "in the ear" version for hunting and wanted to know what others thought of them.

Wow, pretty harsh on the brakes. Totally understandable in hunting situations but practice with one and then cap it is a good plan. Most smiths that are installing brakes include the threaded cap for hunting. Its the way to go.

The interesting thing is that brakes can be engineered to
be SILENCERS at the same time! It's unlawful to have
silencers in so many places on Earth and that is the problem.
For some reason though my mind tells me that using a brake
is a sissy thing to do as opposed to carrying a heavier rifle
of the same caliber. I just feel that you ought to have to pay
a vig to have the privilege of shooting a big bore. Heck if my
72 year old mother with her brittle bones could shoot safely
a 600NE that weighed 5 pounds, had a whisper for a report,
and kicked like a Daisy BB gun I'd not be drawn to it at all.
There's a clear macho issue here!

Shakari, one of the first things I learned at school was that deafness was caused by too much wanking! So, let's put the blame where it belongs.
Peter.

quote:

I only know of three ways to control recoil

Uhh...a fourth method would be PRACTICE. Shoot a few hundred rounds from your chosen hunting rifle from various positions, and preferably work in a heavier gun too. If you hunt with a 450/470, practce, practice, practie, but also borrow a friend's 500/577N once in a while to teach your nervous system that it isn't a big deal. Recoil is realative and easy to become used to over a short while, hearing loss is forever.

If you still don't want the recoil after that, reevaluate the caliber/rifle/bullet that best works for your situation. Often times there might be a another combo that still meets your actual needs without sacrificing your finite hearing. Once sound levels reache a certain Db, even with the best of hearing protection it WILL do permanent damage with every shot.

My eyes and ears are NOT getting any better, so I try to conserve what I've got left while lamenting the sins of my youth!

Bob

Well I have a muzzle brake (made by GS Custom) on my CZ 416 Rigby. I had it installed not for recoil reduction (which I can handle fine in that rifle) but rather for muzzle height reduction. In that, it works very well. The muzzle comes back down noticeably quicker than before.
Just my 2 cents, Peter.

What ever happened to just putting in a pr of ear plugs before the shooting starts? I handgun hunt 98% of the time with both revolvers and TC's SS pistols in wildcat rifle cartridges and always have ear plugs with me to use. Many times I have them in while I am hunting and never seem to see much difference in my ability to hear game....and its a whole lot better than sticking your fingers in your ears if your the PH. My TC Encore handguns all have MB on them due to the powerful cartridges and are permanently attached...I can't remove them without heating up the barrel so thats out of the question. The game ears have their own set of issues and many people that have used them did not like them. Earplugs are a simple and cheap solution.

Many people dont want to wear ear plugs when they hunt. I have a contender 30/30 no need for a brake. An easy gun. I think your right though, plugs would be a good idea for that gun. Not taken it out in a few years, it was pretty loud even without a brake.

The complaint raised here is on a safari hunt with PH and guide - they all have to carry and wear plugs or muffs or risk hearing loss. That is is No1 issue in the book. It is just plain rude.

A secondary issue raised in the book. Is the dB rating of the muffs and plugs is generally not adequate for the brakes. If I had one, and thats a big if, I would try both orange plugs AND best rated (max dB) muffs I could find. But the muffs hit the stock. The recoil knocks them off. Really a pia. The plugs are rated below the needed dB levels for a brake. I do like those plugs.

Third level consideration is sportsmanship. This is purely my own humble opinion and not for anyone else. Not a put down. I like to feel good about my shooting and hunting. I know 505 is not going to impress anyone here. But it been a big challenge for me and source of pride and satisfaction to stand up and shoot like a man. A gave up semi-autos in the field long ago and feel same way about brakes today.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Shakari, one of the first things I learned at school was that deafness was caused by too much wanking! So, let's put the blame where it belongs.
Peter.

What did you say? I can't hear you.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Steve,

Having lost a great deal of hearing in my right ear from a "too close" gunshot (but better than had it hit it's mark), I have thought about those Walker Game ears.

Do you have the muff style or the "in the ear" kind? I am interested in the "in the ear" version for hunting and wanted to know what others thought of them.

Sorry for the delay in getting back.... I've been busy scribbling.

I bought the ones that hook around the back of the ear and have a little chappie that then goes into the ear like an ear plug..... fraid I don't remember the cost...... and FWIW, they work an absolute treat!

Peter,

It's mine and I'll wash it as fast as I like!

CCMDoc,

Here's the ones I bought: Game Ears

And FWIW, I also pop them in when I'm just going anywhere noisy and use them as ordinary hearing aids. The volume control is especially useful!

Excellent!

Thanks Steve, I'll hvae to get one.

Paul

Paul,

do yourself a favour and get a pair!

ever shot a big bore with a brake, efbie?
i didn't think so.
lots of hat, but no cattle

have you started reloading your 505 yet?
if at all humanly possible, i always wear ear protection ... harbourfrieght as auto cutoff headsets for 30 bucks ..

a favroite quote of mine
"you don't KNOW 'most people', and can't speak for them."

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
What ever happened to just putting in a pr of ear plugs before the shooting starts?

Sometimes there just isn't the time if you want to place the shot. Trying to "plug in" can cost too many oppriotunities on game.

Personally I think that custom fit hearing aid type devices are the way of the future.


And now for my personal opinion...(Let the disagreements begin!)


Assuming a gun is properly weighted, stocked to fit, and you have put in practice time...

If you need a brake to shoot it, it's too much gun for you.

If you need recoil reducers installed, it's too much gun for you.

If the ballistics of the cartdidge are such that it requires recoil reducers,and muzzle brake to make the gun shootable at a carryable weight... It's a stunt gun.

I just don't think brakes have a place in the hunting field - Kinda like those plastic horns at the last world cup in SA. Yes, there is no prohibition, but they are annoying, to others.

If you hunt alone, do as you like. When with others, show a little courtesy.

.

458 Winchester power (450GNR) in a TC Encore w/ a 14" bull bbl and NO brake...ok but you shoot it first. It's a handful WITH a brake. Thats the price to pay if you want a big bore handgun with enough power to drop an elephant if you choose to do so. I have no issue with my plugs in while hunting and it may not dampen it all but it is better than nothing.

I have a brake on my 450 Dakota and using it for load development and practice gave me alot of confidence in the rifle. I shot 400 rounds prior to using to hunt with.

Now that I am used to the 450 I shoot it without the brake. Just not as much!

Andy

with humor.. what do you feel about recoil pads? those seem kind of sissy, from your post bellow.. and your artistic descriotion, rather than specifications, don't preclude recoil tubes for proper weight and fitting ..

and yes, there are guns that can, and have, been properly built and fitted.. for example, the 577NE, and needs to weigh 14lb .. vs a 9.5# .585 chucher with a brake .. guess what? the guy with the brake will be able to carry that rifle rather, and have a better chance of an ethical kill at end of the hunt...

which is more important? ethics or aesthetics?

from your post, a real man doesn't use hearing protection or a recoil pad...

rgardless of the fact that they bulk of muzzle brakes are installed on small and medium bore guns, from the factory

quote:

Originally posted by TwoZero:

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
What ever happened to just putting in a pr of ear plugs before the shooting starts?

Sometimes there just isn't the time if you want to place the shot. Trying to "plug in" can cost too many oppriotunities on game.

Personally I think that custom fit hearing aid type devices are the way of the future.


And now for my personal opinion...(Let the disagreements begin!)


Assuming a gun is properly weighted, stocked to fit, and you have put in practice time...

If you need a brake to shoot it, it's too much gun for you.

If you need recoil reducers installed, it's too much gun for you.

If the ballistics of the cartdidge are such that it requires recoil reducers,and muzzle brake to make the gun shootable at a carryable weight... It's a stunt gun.

I just don't think brakes have a place in the hunting field - Kinda like those plastic horns at the last world cup in SA. Yes, there is no prohibition, but they are annoying, to others.

If you hunt alone, do as you like. When with others, show a little courtesy.

.

IMHO, the arguments against brakes are stale and boring.
1. The arguments against are personal preference in nature.
2. They have great commercial success for a reason, they work.
3. Modern hearing protection is available to everyone and should be used by PHs and everyone at the range.
4. Some modern brake designs direct the sound away from the shooter and the PH.
5. Not everyone has the time and convenience of shooting a lot and brakes help with the process of sighting in and becoming familiar with your firearm.
6. It is not a macho thing, it is a personal choice. Having done all the macho things,i.e., football, baseball, drive a truck, fist fights, worked cattle, sheep 1/2 slam, elephant, buff, etc., some of my firearms have brakes and some don't, so I shoot a .470 DR (obvious w/o brake), and a .458 Lott with a brake.
7. Lastly, if I pay, I make the rules (as to caliber, make, accessories, of the the firearm I bring). If I choose to hunt with a brake, then the PH should wear modern hearing protection or stand back. I have liked my PHs and mean them no harm, but you don't play football if you are afraid to injure your knees.

quote:

and yes, there are guns that can, and have, been properly built and fitted.. for example, the 577NE, and needs to weigh 14lb .. vs a 9.5# .585 chucher with a brake .. guess what? the guy with the brake will be able to carry that rifle rather, and have a better chance of an ethical kill at end of the hunt...

I think this is one point made prior: There is little satisfaction in shooting a big bore your granny could handle. If you cannot carry the gun or handle the recoil than what have you proven? Everyone is different, but for me I want meet the full challenge and if that limits me to 50 cal, fine. I shoot my 50, un-assisted.

It seems you have more bragging right to making a clean kill with a 375 or 416 than do the same with a handicap assisted 577 or 600. Again, just an opinion. I never would pass judgement on others.

The objection raised in "any shot you want" is hearing damage and respect for the PH and tracker And confirmed by one PH right there in this thread. If you dont care about your self, then show respect for others. To paraphrase Art words.

Well stated by TwoZero two posts back:

quote:

If you hunt alone, do as you like. When with others, show a little courtesy.

Sadly, I think this attitude is all too common in many activities of life:

quote:

Lastly, if I pay, I make the rules.

I have guns with brakes and for bench work they are the best. Hunting I like to hear the bullet hit, i have never tried the plugs steve mentioned(model number or exact name will help),Can you hear the bullet hit with these? If you have a threaded gun just don't use it hunting but on the bench you can really shoot more rounds with less flinch, which helps with confidence in the gun. I have some guns that don't kick much as in lighter calibers but i use the brakes when target practicing. I have several friends like steve who hurt their hearing so i don't use them hunting anymore and I really want my PH to know where I shot.

Gerry

I bought 2 of the HD Pro model. Not only can I now hear the bullet hit again, I can also hear the jackals calling and I hadn't been able to hear them for close to 20 years.

I love 'em to bits!

Fourbore,

You took the post out of context, so I edited it for your benefit.

BTW, respect is a two way street. I expect my choice of firearms to be respected. That is my point.

Shakari,

I use the fine Walker Game Ear products and they really help.

Loss of hearing is not attributable to muzzle brakes, it is lost for lack of hearing protection. I lost some of my hearing early on before we all new about protection. Today there is no reason to lose hearing from shooting.

NO disrespect intended, but strong perhaps and if over the line I apologize. I do disagree with many of your points.

I myself have been the target of extreme disrespect. It can become almost second nature to some on this forum. I'll try to stay above that. Folks can get over sensitive, but I am far from that and believe me I know disrespect when it get slung in my face. (not from you, in general)

I started this topic to see how members felt when the issue was discussed isolated from any emotion regarding the 600Ok.

I think it is safe to say, that muzzle brakes are not even close too universally accepted and being against them does not make me inexperienced or a non-reloader or a troll to recall a few recent names. Its a commonly held opinion.

And hey, I can see both sides and maybe someday I'd like a 50BMG with a honkin big brake. Not for hunting, but for yucks and grins.

quote:

Originally posted by BEGNO:
Loss of hearing is not attributable to muzzle brakes, it is lost for lack of hearing protection. Today there is no reason to lose hearing from shooting.

Correct.

There are electronic ear muffs, Power ear muffs, disposable earplugs and sonic ear plugs that let normal sounds through and stop the "blast" from a weapon discharge...don't blame the weapon OR a MB for being stupid enough NOT to wear ear protection...

The arguments people come up with are childish and igrnorant...it's YOUR hearing and if you don't have sense enought to protect it, it's YOUR blame and nothing else.

Go back and read Butches tome, he covers it all very well.

I had an Answer Products brake on my .450 Dakota, honestly couldn't tell that it helped that much with recoil, my first and last experience with a brake, can't see the need for them.

Does this mean I need to put a brake on my CZ 505 Gibbs before I shoot it anymore? EH?

Rich

Fourbore,

Thanks. For the record, I think brakes are ugly, most of my firearms don't have them. BTW, I am not that recoil shy, for example, I shoot 3 cases of 3" magnum shells thru my Benelli recoil operated 12 gauge every duck season(wearing earplugs of course).

You are correct that non-braked guns far outnumber braked firearms. However, in the SAPS line at JNB, you will see a lot of MBs being checked in.

ISS,

It doesn't mean anything. It is your choice. You can buy an air conditoned truck or not, it is your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I myself have been the target of extreme disrespect.

you consider respecting your actual accomplishments to be disrespectful?

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
does not make me inexperienced

have you reloaded the FIRST round of 505 gibbs, as yet? even own the press? how about dies?

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

or a non-reloader

you aren't a big bore reloader, by your own statement. which makes you VERY inexperienced in the arenas of reloading bigbores and wildcatting, and therefore, cartridge design and recoil management

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

or a troll

trolls act as they act. you post ZERO of your own actual experience.. but quote Art as scripture, and feel that by reading a couple books and shooting factory ammo, that you are now armed to provide critique of those that have been there and done that.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

to recall a few recent names.

closer to the truth, that's about ALL of them. none of which are "extreme" disrespect. if you aren't happy with receiving CREDIT for your deeds, then DO MORE, and quit complaining.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
Its a commonly held opinion.

that you are inexperienced, don't reload bigbores, and are likely a troll? quite likely one of the truest things you've ever said.

ask yourself - do you ADD anything to the dicussion, or do you pick at the work of other men, like a carrion bird on a corpse?

Like rebated rims, use a muzzle brake if you want to. Don't complain when someone else does something you don't like. If you aren't paying for it, you have NO SAY.

as for men deciding not to use hearing protection.. that is self-inflicted.

my feelings on muzzle brakes? if you want one, have it. if you don't, then don't.
MOST muzzle brakes on a small-medium bore rifles.. heck, i bet winchester/browning made more 270/3009/300/338 BOSS systems than haev EVER been on ALL the big bore hunting rifles with brakes EVER built.

Heck, I bet taurus has made more muzzle braked pistols than EVERY hunting rifle braked, over .416 and not a 50-bmg

I haven't read the entire thread. I have 2 rifles with brakes on them. These are a 375 H&H and a 416 Rem. I got them primarily to reduce muzzle rise. In other words, I believed they allowed me to get a second shot faster.

Are they loud? Hell yes. When shooting them at the range here, we have a tin roof overhead. The blast is awful.

I have always tried to wear ear plugs when hunting. However, there have been those times when ,due to the excitement or suddenness, I did not manage to get them in.

Recently, I have developed a ringing in my left ear. I now wonder if this is brake related. It ain't fun.

I am convinced that I could shoot the biggest bores without problem if they were silent. The noise is far worse than the recoil to me. Regardless, they do help with muzzle rise.