Thinking about getting a bolt rifle(s) made in 375 HH and 458 Lott. After some research have come down to two players - Empire Rifles vs. Dakota Arms. Given the considerable experience in this Forum any advice, insight would be most welcome.

Jim, just food for thought but how about getting a rifle from AHR? If you really want something nice, have them put it on a Granite Mountain Action. They do great work and they do it ON TIME!!!

Dave

I have studied both in detail and compared them.

Here are the differences in my opinion -

Action - Dakota- a model 70 look alike that works, well built

Empire - traditional Mauser type likely better built than the original

Stocks - Dakota - not much choice in metrics but great fit and great wood

Empire- get what you want, great wood and great fit

Service - not sure but both are the same

Accuracy - Dakota - great, no garauntee
Empire - great with a garuantee

Cost - similar

Resale - not sure but know there is market for both

Which to buy? You cannot make a mistake with either.

empire ..

i've never seen a fencepost as an empire stock, especially not as an upgrade

As the owner of 5 Dakota rifles, I would recommend the Empire rifle for equal money. The only way to go Dakota is to provide your own wood. Dakota charges a fortune for average wood as an upgrade. Dakota checkering is very basic and too expensive for upgrades. I just handled an Empire 375 and loved it. Check out Dakota's price list. Everything is a price upgrade. I also agree with the AHR suggestion. Nice looking rifles reasonably priced. I have a couple Dakotas on consignment sale right now and if they sell I'm going to have Martini Gunmakers build me a new 300 H&H.

quote:

Originally posted by Shikaribabu:
Thinking about getting a bolt rifle(s) made in 375 HH and 458 Lott. After some research have come down to two players - Empire Rifles vs. Dakota Arms. Given the considerable experience in this Forum any advice, insight would be most welcome.

Empire

No doubt at all - EMPIRE!!!

I have 3 Dakotas and couldn't be happier(416 rem, 375h&h and 458win-338win traveler, all african grades). They were all bought from their inventory section. The xxx fancy walnut is beautiful and they shoot great. They were, however, a pile of money.
I do not have any experience with Empire but have heard nothing but great things about them.

Build time might be a factor for you. According to the guy I deal with at Dakota, the turn around time is 8-10 months.

Either of the companys would be a fine choice.

Again, just food for thought. The turn around time on a rifle from AHR is four to five months. I know a guy who waited so long for a rifle from Empire, he finally cancelled his order.

AHR just built a .450 Dakota for me. I did use the CZ action but did a wood upgrade with fleur-de-lis checkering and it is superb. Five months start to finish. Wayne does great work.

Dave

As I've said before, I wouldn't give Dakota a nickel as long as Charlie Kokesh is involved with the company. Kokesh was a crook before he bought into Dakota, defrauded his lenders and co-investors, ran Dakota into the dirt, and is now bankrupting the company again.

At least now he's reaping that which he has sown...

http://www.santafenewmexican.c...-home-to-foreclosure

By Tom Sharpe | The New Mexican

2/26/2009

Venture capitalist Charles Kokesh could be losing his east-side residence as well as his polo grounds southwest of Santa Fe.

On Thursday, a judge agreed to allow a foreclosure sale of Kokesh's home at 708 Camino Corrales in seven weeks.

According to a complaint filed by Thornburg Mortgage Home Loans Inc. last year, Charles R. and Marla Gokee Kokesh took out a $3.9 million adjustable-rate mortgage with an initial interest rate of 6.875 percent on June 19, 2006.

By Oct. 31, 2008, it says, the Kokeshes still owed the full principal of $3.9 million and were unable to keep up with the payment schedule.

Santa Fe County Assessor's Office records say the house and its 2.3-acre lot are valued at $2,186,885.

Lawyers for both parties spoke with state District Judge Jim Hall by telephone during a brief hearing Thursday morning on a proposed summary judgment.

The Kokeshes' attorney, William Waggoner of Santa Fe, began by seeking a postponement, saying he had difficulty reaching his client, who is working out of state. Kokesh has been running a gun-manufacturing plant called Dakota Arms in Sturgis, S.D., which he recently bought.

Waggoner said the poor economy has affected a "multimillion buyout" of Kokesh's company and he was trying to keep Kokesh, his wife and their "three or four children" at the house.

But Thornburg's attorney, Justin Sawyer of Albuquerque, who supported the summary judgment, said people who face foreclosure often claim they will pay off a note when "they will come into money, but that is unlikely to happen."

Judge Hall granted the summary judgment, but stipulated that no sale take place prior to April 21 to give the Kokeshes time to work out a settlement with the mortgage company.

Last week, Los Alamos National Bank sued the Santa Fe Horse Park, which Kokesh purchased in 1998, for foreclosure on its $2.25 million mortgage.

Kokesh said he made payments through last year, but stopped at the first of this year because he was trying to consolidate that debt with another for Checktech Financial, his former company. But Los Alamos National Bank CEO Bill Enloe said negotiations with Kokesh had not been successful, and he saw no alternative to the foreclosure.

Kokesh started a venture capital firm called Technology Funding Capital Corp. in San Mateo, Calif., in 1979, and moved the firm and his family to Santa Fe in 1997. He tried but failed to get federal approval for people to make venture-capital investments via credit cards over the phone or online.

In 1998, Kokesh bought the 35-acre Santa Fe Polo Grounds near La Cieneguilla and expanded it into the Santa Fe Horse Park. Its meadows and playing fields initially were irrigated with city sewage effluent, but the city cut off the effluent a year ago over an alleged debt of $189,481, so the park began irrigating from the nearby Hagerman Well, jointly operated by the county, the city and the horse park.

City attorneys are now opposing Kokesh's application with the state engineer to sell water rights from that well to Public Service Company of New Mexico for $1 million.

Kokesh has said there are three other owners of the Santa Fe Horse Park, but only one other name appears on state corporation records — organizer Reverdy Johnson, who used to live on Cerro Gordo Road, but whose phone number has been disconnected.

Technology Funding and its related firms appear to be inactive or not in good standing, according to state corporation records.

Charlie! Throw down that shovel!

Just something else to think about. If you do a search on gunbroker, gunsamerica, etc., you can find lots of Dakota rifles for sale. Can't say you'll see too many people parting with their Empire or AHR rifles.

Not to throw too many stones but;
much in the way "that it's not your Father's Oldsmobile" it is truly not Don Allen's Dakota Arms.

I my opinion is that Empire operates in a very similar business manner as did Don and others.
(Sterling Davenport, Hamilton Bowen,Gene Semillion Al Biesen etc, etc)

I do not "name names" to drag them into this.
I cite them as examples of people or companies that in meeting customer expectations there rarely seems to be a problem.
If those expectations are not met in general, again, in my opinion, the issue is more with a misunderstanding than the actual product itself.

That is not to say "don't buy the Dakota product, it is to say --look carefully at your options.

Just an observation here...but shakaribabu asked about Empire and Dakota.
Not AHR.
Opinions are great from all sources but let it be said.
AHR is not a great builder.
Unless of course you really do not understand the difference between a good maker and a not so good or average builder.
Their finish and especially the fit was NOT worthy of the price or in my opinion the wood. It was a shame to see good wood done that way.
I seen the guns at Dallas Safari club for the first time.
Maybe they were rushed to get their gun there and that would explain what I seen. But it would not excuse it.

On to the question.

Empire rifles if you are having a new gun built would be your best bet. A quality rifle.


Dakota was a quality rifle, but...
Stay as far away from Charlie Kokesh as possible.
Crook
Liar
Cheat
Conceited
Egomaniac asshole
describes him to a tee.

Dakota used to guarantee an MOA on all their rifles. I traded a bunch of safe queens to First Stop for a xxx stocked Dakota 76 in 7mm Rem. Took them a year to deliver it. Shot about seven brands and bullet weights from 140 through 175 through it and it wouldn't shoot better than 2 MOA with anything.

Finally sent it back and they rebarreled it and now will shoot 1/2 MOA with factory Federal TSX's. If I had it to do over again, I would order from Empire. Took me 18 months to sort it out. It's a beautiful rifle, but the entire process was a major pain in the ass.

Who knows how long Dakota will be around thus customer service could vanish, George at Empire will take good care of you, yes it takes some time for a good rifle. AHR is another great option. Your choice.

I posted above on my observations of the differences as I had first hand experience.

With that, I bought a new Model 70 (.300 WM Featherweight) from the FN plant in South Carolina. I shot it yesterday for the first time.

My first 3 shot group was .75-.9" using Federal Trophy Bonded bullets. My second group was 1.1 to 1.3" using Triple Shocks. The wind was gusty to 15mph quartering across the range. The new trigger has no creep and shoots cleanly. I am nothing but impressed with the new M70.

This would be an option if you chose not to go with Dakota or Empire.

If (or should I say 'when") I buy one of these rifles, I will buy one from George.

Of the the 2 I would go with the Empire, but if I were purchasing a rifle that expensive I think that I would go with Ryan Breeding

hey guys, remember the picture we had up for awhile of the Dakota "upgrade" stock with the 1"= knot right in the middle? Quite a sales incentive.
I know Wayne at AHR, I've handled and shot several of his rifles; and you will be very happy with what you order and get.

Rich
Buff Killer

Hey Idaho Sharpshooter....
Go easy on those knots, there are guys here that will jump all over you for mentioning them as a criticism!!!
Look over in the double rifle forum under the pretty searcy or some such title.

Someone posts a $16,000 gun with a KNOT IN IT!!! And we should be happy for this?

I got railed for bringing it up!

LOL

O well.

Carry on................

Since that Kokesh took over I have seen some real crap come out of there and the damnist thing of all is that people do not seem to give a rats ass.
Do buyers not know any better?
I seen high grade wood with badding compound between the wood and metal.
I seen the same thing at the end of the barrels channel.

And the worst was wood that was cross grained all through the wrist!
Trash.

And people bought it.

I have an older Dakota, from the Don Allen era. Shoots good, I bought it used which put the price well in line with wood which even in Mr Allen's era could ocasionally be iffy, I looked till I found a good 375H&H. My two cent is that there are a number of used Dakotas available, you should be able to find one you like and you should be able to buy it "right".

Does anyone know the approximate s/n number range when Dakota changed owners?

How long is it taking Empire to deliver a custom rifle now?

quote:

Originally posted by Huntr7X57:
How long is it taking Empire to deliver a custom rifle now?

I ordered mine 2 1/2 years ago, Nov/Dec 2006

why not have our own Trez Hensley build you a rifle from scratch? You can pick out the wood you want from his stash and get 100% the rifle you have been picturing in your mind. I have seen several examples of his work, and there is not a better craftsman on the planet.

Rich
Buff Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
why not have our own Trez Hensley build you a rifle from scratch? You can pick out the wood you want from his stash and get 100% the rifle you have been picturing in your mind. I have seen several examples of his work, and there is not a better craftsman on the planet.

Rich
Buff Killer

The work shown on his site is quite impressive!!

It is great to have a rifle made from scratch however I have experienced the same scenario with the FOREVER wait to have it made.
If you have the "change" in your pocket you might just go to the SCI convention and find something on a table. There are thousands to choose from and you can probably negotiate the price these days.
Pick one out and go to the range!

EZ

Takes Empire about 8-11 months to complete his rifles so 2 1/2 year wait is nonsence

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Takes Empire about 8-11 months to complete his rifles so 2 1/2 year wait is nonsence

I'm telling you guys... Call Wayne at American Hunting Rifles. The do great work and they do it in a timely fashion. I am getting set to send my CZ off to them for the full treatment. Trouble is I can't decide which to do first, my Rigby or my 9.3X62.

if you get the cz action ahr will do it within 4 months with their gma 9 months so either way there is going to be a wait

Black Hills Pioneer 6-2-09
The article reads.
Dakota Arms to change hands.
www.bhpioneer.com


Timan

I've been quite pleased with my empire 375and looked at a bunch of dakotas before I bought it. Breeding is in a different price class

Nate Heineke builds a spectacular rifle and they are priced competitively. He knows how to fit a stock to both shooter and barrel/action. Very innovative design features. My .375 recoils like a .308 and that is an accurate statement. His number is 307-745-8592 and he builds in a timely fashion.

Dutch

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
Black Hills Pioneer 6-2-09
The article reads.
Dakota Arms to change hands.
www.bhpioneer.com
Timan

Dakota Arms to change hands

Officials at Dakota Arms announced that the Sturgis-based company was for sale and several parties have made offers. The company, which employees approximately 30 people, makes custom firearms. Above an employee works on a stock of a Dakota Arms rifle. Pioneer file photo
By Amy Wright
Black Hills Pioneer
STURGIS -- Dakota Arms is in the midst of changing owners.

“I am not naming names, but the rumor is true, we are selling and we hope to close sometime this week,” Dakota Arms Sales Manager Richard Spruill said.

Dakota Arms did not publicly advertise sale of the business and did not wish to explain why the business is being sold. Instead, management said the owners put feelers out for possible merger, sale or partnership options and received interest from a number of potential buyers.

“We have received several offers from interested parties. We are looking for the best offer and I think we have it,” Spruill said.

Dakota Arms has been in business in South Dakota since 1987 and is located on Industry Road in Sturgis. Dakota Arms employs roughly 30 employees specializing in the craft of firearms, fire are replicas and it's own “Dakota” line of rifles available for retail and individual purchase.

Just took delivery today of my AHR 375 H&H built on a Granite mountain action. I was also at Dallas Safari's convention and had looked at Empire Rifles at SCI in 2008 and 2009.

I don't know what experience you have in handling AHR's rifles but their wood fit and function take a back seat to no one.

I'am currently having a 416 Rigby and 505 Gibbs built by Ryan Breeding which does excellent work.

Gun Toter, you should know what you are talking about before you downgrade builders. (Knot hole stock)

I was at the builders shop yesterday, and saw the gun in question. The one you commented on, with the knothole in the stock. This blank was sent to the builder by the customer who wanted it used on the rifle that was being built.

Secondly if you want some pics of my 375 by AHR please send a PM to me with an e-mail and I will send you an e-mail with the pics.

After having a 10 month run-around with Dakota over a previously order of two rifles, Wayne at AHR was a pleasure to deal and his finished product was supurb and delivered as promised.

Check out past forums on AHR and you will not find any disatifaction with their quality. function and customer service.

I don't have a horse in this race, but know quality, value and good customer service when I see it.

470drshooter,
I'll bite though I really should not rise to this.

First, when Butch got that stock from a customer he should have sent it back. The gun has HIS NAME ON IT (as in BUTCH SEARCY), not the customers name. The blank of wood was scrap and inferior. A knot running all the way through the blank of wood relegates it to the scrap pile by every other self-respecting gun builder. Apparently Butch has a lower form of respect for any legacy he wishes to build (or otherwise would build) based on the firearms he builds.
To argue this point with me will simply confirm acceptance of sub par from a fellow American maker who has at his reach the ability to build high quality goods but chose not to in this case.

As for the AHR situation, I was not the only one at the show that took exception to the fact that a business card could be placed between the wood and metal to the AHR rifle we looked at. Further, the pores of the wood were not filled.

Again, these "problems" are acceptable. But NOT at $16,000 and $6,500 (or what ever AHR was asking) respectively.


Finally, in regards to your comment to me: “Gun Toter, you should know what you are talking about before you downgrade builders.”
Opinions do vary, but when they are based on physical evidence, and appear to be polar opposites, one must wonder about the eyesight of differing parties or the ability to distinguish true craftsmanship.

Well gun toter, It appears your's is the only opinion that matters. Some business people do what the customer wants. Quite a novel concept.

I'am sure you like certain types of firearms that I would never own.

The price of the rifle I had built was $8,000.00 for a 375 H&H on a Granite Mountain action, with upgraded wood. It is going to be used for hunting not as a safe queen.

For approximatly 40% of the cost of the Ryan Breeding guns that I am having being built, I think it is a hell of a bargain.

AHR big bore rifles 600 OK etc. offer a lot of people a lot of gun and quality for a reasonable price. My offer still stands to send you pics of the rifle, but it seems as you have your mind already made up. I'am sure AHR can do without your endorsment.

Maybe your impressed with your smugness I'am not.

On the AHR rifles, I own 4 of them, 2 in the 700 AHR and 2 of them in 600 overkill. I think the wood to metal finish is great on all four of them. And all four guns shoot very accurately.