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. Heck , I,ve never even seen a wild elephant , probably never will ........But since most of the solids that fail are conventional design , and since they are long and round nose , other than probably being very reliable in the feeding from the magazine dept . I would think the FN design Mono solids of normal weight or slightly lighter would be superior , and easier to shoot / easier on the rifle .. As long as they had adequet straight line penetration .... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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I like the 400 grain GS HV on top of the 450 grain Flat nose solid for the winnie | |||
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I agree with 465H&H in that the 550grn woodleigh FMJ's from a 458LOTT is the ideal Elephant bolt rifle round. But in saying that, I am having a light and handy 458Win built up and will use the Woodleigh 480grn 458Win bullets for Ele hunting. | |||
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That's for sure, Con!  "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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and all this being said .. i like 500gr at 2200 at the lowest pressure, in a standard length action... or rem 405s at IMPACT of no more than 2000 out of the box, in a factory gun, the lott is the best all around big bore. and a 458 win mag can be really good .. LOL, you can make the winmag ALOT better by running a 458 AR reamer into that chamber ... then you have 458 lott capacity in a standard length action .. and a strong neck+shoulder to gain physical advanage for even more (do you need it) velocity. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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That's actually 40 fps faster!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Jeff; My point is a simple one: there are MANY variables. It's not as straightforward as you present it. And the problem with the way you present it is that just about everyone who chooses the Lott over the Win Mag ASSUMES that it is ALWAYS 150 fps "better". Which it is not! The difference may be anywhere from -50 fps to +200 fps... depending on those variables. My CZ, as noted, allows me to load it like a Lott with the Barnes monolithics because of the length of the bullets, the length of the action and the length of the throat. IF I wanted to, and I've done it. As a matter of fact, with the longer Barnes, it can be loaded to 3.8" COL. No problem. But not ALL actions for the Lott permit that COL. Another variable: BRASS. If it's Hornady, here are the capacities according to the horse's mouth: 458 Win Mag = 94.2 H2o; the Lott = 102.6 H2o. Granted, the Lott has an advantage for the knowledgable handloader who wants to load it to its full potential. BUT, the Win Mag is a lot (as Phil says "pun unavoidable")more capable than many "arm chair experts" give it credit for. I'd say that difference is nothing like 175 fps, according to my data (you choose your sources and I choose mine, that's what makes a good argument)but more like 50 to 100 fps, depending on a whole bunch of variables, that haven't been discussed here. You want a level playing field... in your ball park or mine?  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Bob, Your field or mine, it is unimportant. Use the same bullet,same brand of case (can't use biggest winmag and smallest lott) and the same load, and the lott is always bigger. opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jeff; You're repeating yourself. So, it's your terms ("playing field")? OK, but then we're in different leagues... You play ball according to your rules and... well, you know the rest... I'll do the same! You say: "All being equal" or "should be in theory". And I say: "Nothing is always equal in practice". So, I show up at the range (actually) shooting my 458WM (CZ) loaded to the gunnels with H4198 behind 350TSX's, and a COL of 3.45", crimped into the bottom groove of that bullet. Recorded velocities at 10': 2746, 2745, 2748, 2748, 2744, 2746 & 2746. The shooter at the bench to my right comes over to check on my CZ. He likes 'em. He's been shooting a 416 Rigby in a Ruger #1. I show him the recorded velocities and then the case. He literally backs away in amazement, but he never questions that it's anything but a 458WM. Was it a 458WM or a Lott? Your playing field says it's a Lott. Mine says it's a 458Win Mag!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Facts are facts, they don't change on repeating. You, on the other hand, keep changing Nop, bob, its use teh SAME conditions. Fair play, I guess that's a texas thing I can see that, no, sigh, YOU keep changing the comparison. This is called waffling. that's how one comapres two simular things, by setting everything but the dissimular to the same. One does this in math, about 4th grade Never said it. Please keep up this is your opinion, in order to keep up this  Great. I'll load a lott, crimped on the last groove, and with a tweaked load, and lets compare. Slower rifle PAYS for the airfare No one is question your results, bob. You are questioning everyone elses you only had a winmag, sir. what else could it be? You are saying this, I didn't. This is a juvenile techinque to put words in my mouth. i NEVER spoke about a 350 tsx loaded in a winmag to the last groove. that's all you, bub.
Are you through? Seriously, this is rather tiring. You are taking this personally. FACTS, bub.. the winmag is a spec case of 95 grains H20, the lott is SPEC of 110. FACTS.. I'm done. Your mind is made up, no matter what the facts are. have a nice day opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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.... Since There is room in the CZ 550 Saf Mag mag box to long load the Lott , run a throater in the Lott chamber ,give it 3/8 " free bore beyond what it has .. Roll a new cannalure in the base of some bullet and you will still be bigger than the Win Mag .. Jeffe .. Life is too short to argue with the likes of only .... Thats why they invented the ignore tag ... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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.. I,m not saying it is needed .. Or that there are any flies on the Win Mag . .. Or that longer is better . As Ian has a 602 which should have the long mag box , I myself would ream it to the Lott or Watts just so I would have more ammo options ..... In my Lott I didn,t see any velocity loss shooting Win mag ammo in the Lott chamber .....But I only gained about 10-20 fps in the 5.5 inch longer barrel ..... It sure is nice being able to torch off 375 H&H ammo in the Lott ... fireforms out great .... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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gumboot: Why are you upset? What has this to do with you? But since you're making a point of it, run a reamer a foot long into the Lott and the COL is still constrained by the action length, or magazine. And in the case of the CZ, they have the same action and magazine! I'm not trying to upset your friend, but since he wants to talk facts, then let's face them. According to Hornady, and a number of other suppliers, the real difference between the Lott and Winchester, loaded to SPECS is between 50 to 100 fps. That's the only point I was making. On the other hand, in the CZ, with EITHER Lott or Winchester scrolled on the barrel, handloaded they are about equal. Mine has never been customized in any way. It's in its original form. Why should you or your friend be offended by that... because it was brought to your attention???  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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There's the beauty of the 458AR ... whilst I keep telling myself I really should load up some 500gr Woodleigh's to their maximum potential (just to say I did), I'm still happy with the fireforming load that ticks over at 2230fps! It's still comfortable-ish in a 10.5lb rifle. If I had the cash, I'd build another lightweight 9lb hill carry rifle just for using Woodleighs 400gr at a sedate 2400fps.  Cheers... Con | |||
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You will gain volume shooting the wm in a Lott chamber, thus reducing pressure and velocity. To make an apples to apples comparison, you would need to shoot the wm in a wm chamber, and the Lott in a Lott chamber, but then you would be introducing all of the other variables between rifles. Sample size of each in different rifles is the only way to compare. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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2150fps is plenty sufficent for any ele on earth with a 500gr Woodleighm or new Hornaday, or the 480ge versions of either, if you can overcome the cannelure posistion issue for the 480's - Woodleigh makes occasional runs of the 480 with wm cannelure placement as opposed to 450NE placement. A 450gr flat nose copper solids, like the North Fork or the GS Custom, running 2200fps or more will give greater penetration than the RN solids. JPK Free 500grains | |||
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. In my CZ Lott shooting 458 Win ammo I gained 10-20 fps over shooting the same loads in my Win Mag.....I wasn,t sure why because everyone has always said the win mag ammo would loose velocity , but in my rifle I gained ...... .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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The 480 and 500gr Woodleigh's are constructed the same, only the location of the cannalure is different. This is from Geoff, the owner. I agree with JPK, baised on my use of my 450 No2 in Zimbabwe, I would not be afraid to go to Jurassic Park with my 450 No2. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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without a doubt, 500gr at 2150 will kill, cleanly, nearly anything on this planet ... and that interally is the issue .. IF it makes 2150, if its a 500 gr, then there's CHOICE opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Compared to another 458wm, sure that may be true, but physics require that if you shoot 458wm ammo in a Lott chamber you will not achieve the same fps as if the rifle had had a wm chamber - all else being equal. That was what my first post was getting at - nothing is ever equal, so the only way to overcome rifle variations is through large sample size. JPk Free 500grains | |||
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r "should be in theory".