.458 Win

09 June 2009, 10:29

gumboot458

.458 Win

quote:
Originally posted by 465H&H:
quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
.....

Gumboot458,
No I haven't used FN solids on elephants as yet but hope to change that in November. Have you ever shot an elephant? I have with 550 grain bullets from a Lott and I can promise you they do penetrate deeper at 2,150 fps than a 500 at 2,150 fps. Like over six feet on a frontal head shot equal to what has been reported for FN solids.

465H&H

.
Heck , I,ve never even seen a wild elephant , probably never will ........But since most of the solids that fail are conventional design , and since they are long and round nose , other than probably being very reliable in the feeding from the magazine dept . I would think the FN design Mono solids of normal weight or slightly lighter would be superior , and easier to shoot / easier on the rifle .. As long as they had adequet straight line penetration ....

09 June 2009, 10:39

Express_Rifles

I like the 400 grain GS HV on top of the 450 grain Flat nose solid for the winnie

09 June 2009, 13:26

ozhunter

I agree with 465H&H in that the 550grn woodleigh FMJ's from a 458LOTT is the ideal Elephant bolt rifle round. But in saying that, I am having a light and handy 458Win built up and will use the Woodleigh 480grn 458Win bullets for Ele hunting.

09 June 2009, 16:21

Whitworth

quote:
Originally posted by Con:
quote:
Originally posted by 458Win:
I see the Norma PH ammo is only listing the Lott velocities at 2150fps with 500 gr bullets as they feel that is enough.

It more than likely is ... plus it starts to hurt exponentially as the velocity goes up.
Cheers...
Con

That's for sure, Con!

09 June 2009, 16:39

jeffeosso

and all this being said ..
i like 500gr at 2200 at the lowest pressure, in a standard length action...

or

rem 405s at IMPACT of no more than 2000

out of the box, in a factory gun, the lott is the best all around big bore.

and a 458 win mag can be really good ..

LOL, you can make the winmag ALOT better by running a 458 AR reamer into that chamber ... then you have 458 lott capacity in a standard length action ..

and a strong neck+shoulder to gain physical advanage for even more (do you need it) velocity.

09 June 2009, 18:11

.458 Only

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Seems to me Steve hornady indicated that their 458 Lott ammo is only 70 fps faster than the 458 Win. ammo.

That's actually 40 fps faster!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

09 June 2009, 18:52

.458 Only

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
458 Only
I think we have to agree that the lott and the winmag have a saami max pressure of 62,366 PSI.

and we have to agree that, when loaded to spec length, the lott is a longer case

I'll do the math for you - at SPEC length
winmag with hornady
74.246 gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity
Winmag with a barnes 500X
61.665 gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity

Lott with hornady
87.574gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity
Lott with a barnes 500X
74.992 gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity

quickload projects 175 fps faster, for the lott, at the same psi, with the same bullets.

Full stop -- man, I have to stop dicussing these things with people unwilling to start with a level playing field

Jeff;

My point is a simple one: there are MANY variables. It's not as straightforward as you present it. And the problem with the way you present it is that just about everyone who chooses the Lott over the Win Mag ASSUMES that it is ALWAYS 150 fps "better". Which it is not! The difference may be anywhere from -50 fps to +200 fps... depending on those variables.

My CZ, as noted, allows me to load it like a Lott with the Barnes monolithics because of the length of the bullets, the length of the action and the length of the throat. IF I wanted to, and I've done it. As a matter of fact, with the longer Barnes, it can be loaded to 3.8" COL. No problem. But not ALL actions for the Lott permit that COL.

Another variable: BRASS. If it's Hornady, here are the capacities according to the horse's mouth: 458 Win Mag = 94.2 H2o; the Lott = 102.6 H2o. Granted, the Lott has an advantage for the knowledgable handloader who wants to load it to its full potential. BUT, the Win Mag is a lot (as Phil says "pun unavoidable")more capable than many "arm chair experts" give it credit for. I'd say that difference is nothing like 175 fps, according to my data (you choose your sources and I choose mine, that's what makes a good argument)but more like 50 to 100 fps, depending on a whole bunch of variables, that haven't been discussed here.

You want a level playing field... in your ball park or mine?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

09 June 2009, 19:23

jeffeosso

Bob,
Your field or mine, it is unimportant. Use the same bullet,same brand of case (can't use biggest winmag and smallest lott) and the same load, and the lott is always bigger.

09 June 2009, 20:05

.458 Only

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Bob,
Your field or mine, it is unimportant. Use the same bullet,same brand of case (can't use biggest winmag and smallest lott) and the same load, and the lott is always bigger.

Jeff; You're repeating yourself. So, it's your terms ("playing field")? OK, but then we're in different leagues... You play ball according to your rules and... well, you know the rest... I'll do the same!

You say: "All being equal" or "should be in theory". And I say: "Nothing is always equal in practice". So, I show up at the range (actually) shooting my 458WM (CZ) loaded to the gunnels with H4198 behind 350TSX's, and a COL of 3.45", crimped into the bottom groove of that bullet. Recorded velocities at 10': 2746, 2745, 2748, 2748, 2744, 2746 & 2746.

The shooter at the bench to my right comes over to check on my CZ. He likes 'em. He's been shooting a 416 Rigby in a Ruger #1. I show him the recorded velocities and then the case. He literally backs away in amazement, but he never questions that it's anything but a 458WM.

Was it a 458WM or a Lott? Your playing field says it's a Lott. Mine says it's a 458Win Mag!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

09 June 2009, 20:44

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:

Jeff; You're repeating yourself.

Facts are facts, they don't change on repeating. You, on the other hand, keep changing

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:So, it's your terms ("playing field")?

Nop, bob, its use teh SAME conditions. Fair play, I guess that's a texas thing

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:OK, but then we're in different leagues...

I can see that,

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only: You play ball according to your rules and... well, you know the rest... I'll do the same!

no, sigh, YOU keep changing the comparison. This is called waffling.

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:

You say: "All being equal"

that's how one comapres two simular things, by setting everything but the dissimular to the same. One does this in math, about 4th grade

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Onlyr "should be in theory".

Never said it. Please keep up

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only: And I say: "Nothing is always equal in practice".

this is your opinion, in order to keep up this

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only: So, I show up at the range (actually) shooting my 458WM (CZ) loaded to the gunnels with H4198 behind 350TSX's, and a COL of 3.45", crimped into the bottom groove of that bullet.

Great. I'll load a lott, crimped on the last groove, and with a tweaked load, and lets compare. Slower rifle PAYS for the airfare

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only: He literally backs away in amazement, but he never questions that it's anything but a 458WM.

No one is question your results, bob. You are questioning everyone elses

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:

Was it a 458WM or a Lott?

you only had a winmag, sir. what else could it be?

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only: Your playing field says it's a Lott.

You are saying this, I didn't. This is a juvenile techinque to put words in my mouth. i NEVER spoke about a 350 tsx loaded in a winmag to the last groove. that's all you, bub.

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only: Mine says it's a 458Win Mag!

Bob

Are you through? Seriously, this is rather tiring. You are taking this personally.

FACTS, bub.. the winmag is a spec case of 95 grains H20, the lott is SPEC of 110.

FACTS..

I'm done. Your mind is made up, no matter what the facts are.

have a nice day

09 June 2009, 20:50

.458 Only

quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Bob,
Your field or mine, it is unimportant. Use the same bullet,same brand of case (can't use biggest winmag and smallest lott) and the same load, and the lott is always bigger.

Jeff; You're repeating yourself. So, it's your terms ("playing field")? OK, but then we're in different leagues... You play ball according to your rules and... well, you know the rest... I'll do the same!

You say: "All being equal" or "should be in theory". And I say: "Nothing is always equal in practice". So, I show up at the range (actually) shooting my 458WM (CZ) loaded to the gunnels with H4198 behind 350TSX's, and a COL of 3.45", crimped into the bottom groove of that bullet. Recorded velocities at 10': 2746, 2745, 2748, 2748, 2744, 2746 & 2746.

The shooter at the bench to my right comes over to check on my CZ. He likes 'em. He's been shooting a 416 Rigby in a Ruger #1. I show him the recorded velocities and then the case. He literally backs away in amazement, but he never questions that it's anything but a 458WM.

Was it a 458WM or a Lott? Your playing field says it's a Lott. Mine says it's a 458Win Mag! Added: After all, that's what's scrolled on the barrel and the cases all say ".458 Winchester Magnum".

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

09 June 2009, 21:14

gumboot458

.... Since There is room in the CZ 550 Saf Mag mag box to long load the Lott , run a throater in the Lott chamber ,give it 3/8 " free bore beyond what it has .. Roll a new cannalure in the base of some bullet and you will still be bigger than the Win Mag .. Jeffe .. Life is too short to argue with the likes of only .... Thats why they invented the ignore tag ...

09 June 2009, 21:22

gumboot458

.. I,m not saying it is needed .. Or that there are any flies on the Win Mag . .. Or that longer is better . As Ian has a 602 which should have the long mag box , I myself would ream it to the Lott or Watts just so I would have more ammo options ..... In my Lott I didn,t see any velocity loss shooting Win mag ammo in the Lott chamber .....But I only gained about 10-20 fps in the 5.5 inch longer barrel ..... It sure is nice being able to torch off 375 H&H ammo in the Lott ... fireforms out great ....

09 June 2009, 23:09

.458 Only

quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
.... Since There is room in the CZ 550 Saf Mag mag box to long load the Lott , run a throater in the Lott chamber ,give it 3/8 " free bore beyond what it has .. Roll a new cannalure in the base of some bullet and you will still be bigger than the Win Mag .. Jeffe .. Life is too short to argue with the likes of only .... Thats why they invented the ignore tag ...

gumboot:

Why are you upset? What has this to do with you?

But since you're making a point of it, run a reamer a foot long into the Lott and the COL is still constrained by the action length, or magazine. And in the case of the CZ, they have the same action and magazine!

I'm not trying to upset your friend, but since he wants to talk facts, then let's face them. According to Hornady, and a number of other suppliers, the real difference between the Lott and Winchester, loaded to SPECS is between 50 to 100 fps. That's the only point I was making.

On the other hand, in the CZ, with EITHER Lott or Winchester scrolled on the barrel, handloaded they are about equal. Mine has never been customized in any way. It's in its original form. Why should you or your friend be offended by that... because it was brought to your attention???

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

10 June 2009, 04:46

Con

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
and all this being said ..
i like 500gr at 2200 at the lowest pressure, in a standard length action...

There's the beauty of the 458AR ... whilst I keep telling myself I really should load up some 500gr Woodleigh's to their maximum potential (just to say I did), I'm still happy with the fireforming load that ticks over at 2230fps! It's still comfortable-ish in a 10.5lb rifle. If I had the cash, I'd build another lightweight 9lb hill carry rifle just for using Woodleighs 400gr at a sedate 2400fps.

Cheers...
Con

10 June 2009, 10:08

JPK

quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Seems to me Steve hornady indicated that their 458 Lott ammo is only 70 fps faster than the 458 Win. ammo.

I've chronographed both the Heavy mag .458 and the Hornady Lott ammo out of my CZ Lott and I got a consistent 2,150 from the win mag, and 2,300 on the nose from the Lott.

You will gain volume shooting the wm in a Lott chamber, thus reducing pressure and velocity. To make an apples to apples comparison, you would need to shoot the wm in a wm chamber, and the Lott in a Lott chamber, but then you would be introducing all of the other variables between rifles.

Sample size of each in different rifles is the only way to compare.

JPK

10 June 2009, 10:11

JPK

2150fps is plenty sufficent for any ele on earth with a 500gr Woodleighm or new Hornaday, or the 480ge versions of either, if you can overcome the cannelure posistion issue for the 480's - Woodleigh makes occasional runs of the 480 with wm cannelure placement as opposed to 450NE placement.

A 450gr flat nose copper solids, like the North Fork or the GS Custom, running 2200fps or more will give greater penetration than the RN solids.

JPK

10 June 2009, 10:43

gumboot458

quote:
Originally posted by JPK:
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Seems to me Steve hornady indicated that their 458 Lott ammo is only 70 fps faster than the 458 Win. ammo.

I've chronographed both the Heavy mag .458 and the Hornady Lott ammo out of my CZ Lott and I got a consistent 2,150 from the win mag, and 2,300 on the nose from the Lott.

You will gain volume shooting the wm in a Lott chamber, thus reducing pressure and velocity. To make an apples to apples comparison, you would need to shoot the wm in a wm chamber, and the Lott in a Lott chamber, but then you would be introducing all of the other variables between rifles.

Sample size of each in different rifles is the only way to compare.

JPK

.
In my CZ Lott shooting 458 Win ammo I gained 10-20 fps over shooting the same loads in my Win Mag.....I wasn,t sure why because everyone has always said the win mag ammo would loose velocity , but in my rifle I gained ......

10 June 2009, 10:51

N E 450 No2

The 480 and 500gr Woodleigh's are constructed the same, only the location of the cannalure is different. This is from Geoff, the owner.

I agree with JPK, baised on my use of my 450 No2 in Zimbabwe, I would not be afraid to go to Jurassic Park with my 450 No2.

10 June 2009, 17:18

jeffeosso

without a doubt, 500gr at 2150 will kill, cleanly, nearly anything on this planet ...

and that interally is the issue ..
IF it makes 2150, if its a 500 gr, then there's CHOICE

10 June 2009, 17:28

JPK

quote:
Originally posted by gumboot458:
quote:
Originally posted by JPK:
quote:
Originally posted by Whitworth:
quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Seems to me Steve hornady indicated that their 458 Lott ammo is only 70 fps faster than the 458 Win. ammo.

I've chronographed both the Heavy mag .458 and the Hornady Lott ammo out of my CZ Lott and I got a consistent 2,150 from the win mag, and 2,300 on the nose from the Lott.

You will gain volume shooting the wm in a Lott chamber, thus reducing pressure and velocity. To make an apples to apples comparison, you would need to shoot the wm in a wm chamber, and the Lott in a Lott chamber, but then you would be introducing all of the other variables between rifles.

Sample size of each in different rifles is the only way to compare.

JPK
.
In my CZ Lott shooting 458 Win ammo I gained 10-20 fps over shooting the same loads in my Win Mag.....I wasn,t sure why because everyone has always said the win mag ammo would loose velocity , but in my rifle I gained ......

Compared to another 458wm, sure that may be true, but physics require that if you shoot 458wm ammo in a Lott chamber you will not achieve the same fps as if the rifle had had a wm chamber - all else being equal. That was what my first post was getting at - nothing is ever equal, so the only way to overcome rifle variations is through large sample size.

JPk