Has anyone used the Hornady DGS / DGX bullets yet on game? Just bought some 480gr (1 of each type) and heard 2230 is the go to powder. What would a good starting charge be? Has anyone done penetration tests?

There have been negative reports on the DGX, and positive on the DGS. We're taking the solids to TZ in July because they group well with the Norma A Frame loads.

Dave Fulson will tell you both are great, but Hornady is his sponsor, so a grain of salt is indicated.

If you have Accurate Arms data for the 500 gr just start with the starting load ...I's been so long since I,ve loaded any 500 gr bullets I can,t remember ...

I'm checking for data tables of the cartridges 458 WM and 458 Lott that the difference in power is not so great. The current 458 WM loads are perfectly valid for hunting dangerous, then what has the advantages over 458 Lott the 458 WM?.

Oscar.

onvy,

The advantage is that if you load the Lott to same muzzle velocity as the Win mag the powder compression will be significantly less.

I have understood, and that gives greater security in hot environments in which an excess pressure may block the bolt.

Thank you,

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by ScottS:
onvy,

The advantage is that if you load the Lott to same muzzle velocity as the Win mag the powder compression will be significantly less.

Scott, with the new AA powders the compression of powders in the 458wm is no longer an issue, the 458wm is getting more popular than ever, not that it was lacking to begin with.

Looking at the paper stats, it seems there is maybe 100fps between the Lott and the Win. Not enough for me to rechamber.

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
Looking at the paper stats, it seems there is maybe 100fps between the Lott and the Win. Not enough for me to rechamber.

It is if your hunting elephant. For buffalo it probably doesn't matter.

465H&H

my goodness...

if the winmag is really good at X velocity, AND IF YOU BELIEVE PRESSURE MATTERS, then the lott can do the same velocity at lower pressure.

There is no replacement for displacement, and if you use ther identical laoding techs for the lott as one does for a hot winmag, then the lott is THAT much better...

in other words

to comparing super hot winmag loads to totally stock lott loads.



ya'll have fun, picking the nits out of this, the facts are, the lott is a bigger case, and can do everything the winmag does, as a starting point.

next we'll be seeing how the 375 ruger can't be as good as the 375HH, even though the case is larger and it goes faster.

.458 Win
2230 500 HDY RN 64.8 1,900 72.0 2,159 53,808 3.305

.458 Lott
2230 500 HDY RN 74.0 2,077 82.0 2,275 60,000 3.600

2520 500 HDY RN 77.0 2,100 86.0 2,310 61,000 3.600

As I stated, no practical difference. The Lott is actually higher pressure too.

IanD,
Those pressures look like CUP vs psi.
Cheers...
Con

The 458WM is like an ugly bride. Dress 'er up, do her hair, put plenty of makeup on 'er, and after a few drinks she starts looking good.

Good velocities can be had WITH a long barrel, WITH short bullets, and WITH very selected powders.

The Lott case is .3" longer. You may choose to use this in a number of ways. You can get 458WM velocities with long bullets such as monolithics. You can get good velocities with shorter barrel weapons. You can use a wider variety of powders.

Whether or not you think that the extra velocity of the Lott is meaningful in the field is an entirely different matter.

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
.458 Win
2230 500 HDY RN 64.8 1,900 72.0 2,159 53,808 3.305

.458 Lott
2230 500 HDY RN 74.0 2,077 82.0 2,275 60,000 3.600

2520 500 HDY RN 77.0 2,100 86.0 2,310 61,000 3.600

As I stated, no practical difference. The Lott is actually higher pressure too.

wrong powder, sir.

this is like the 45/70 crowd that had "realized" that the 458 winmag "is barely any better"

give it a rest.

the lott goes, SPEC, 150 fps faster at the same pressure.

And the 460 Wby trumps the Lott in power. When is enough enough?
There are no flies on the Lott, it is a great round, but I question why, if someone honestly believes that the Lott is that much superior to the standard Win, why don't they use the 460 Wby?
Harry Selby, Finn Aagaard, Joe Coogan, Richard Harland, Mike LaGrange and hundreds of highly experienced PH's seem to think the standard 458 is plenty - even Jack Lott said he was only after 2150fps - and current 458 loads easily do that with low pressure.

Let's cut the crap already.

The Win Mag, Lott, and Weatherby are all good enough for just about any scenerio short of one requiring calling in a few rounds from 155mm cannons or an air force strike.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
And the 460 Wby trumps the Lott in power. When is enough enough?
There are no flies on the Lott, it is a great round, but I question why, if someone honestly believes that the Lott is that much superior to the standard Win, why don't they use the 460 Wby?
Harry Selby, Finn Aagaard, Joe Coogan, Richard Harland, Mike LaGrange and hundreds of highly experienced PH's seem to think the standard 458 is plenty - even Jack Lott said he was only after 2150fps - and current 458 loads easily do that with low pressure.

Real simple

You can buy a basic 458WM and 458Lott for the same price. You can't buy a basic 46o WBY for anthing like that price.

Boltface, action size (width), available brass and cost

Thats a no brainer that one

regards S&F

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
Has anyone used the Hornady DGS / DGX bullets yet on game? Just bought some 480gr (1 of each type) and heard 2230 is the go to powder. What would a good starting charge be? Has anyone done penetration tests?

.

I have not done any other than my wood shooting tests , Tho not with the new Hornady bullets .....I am very glad they came out with them in 480 gr ....The reason is , just because... I always wanted to shoot 480 gr bullets in my rifle ...........

I,ve been shooting 2230 in my rifle since I had it built in 94 , and I wish I had known about it in 86 when I got my 1st 458 win mag .... It sure beats 3031 ........4198 and Accurate 2230 are the 2 ,458 Win mag powders for me ....I think 2015 BR and maybe 2520 are good powders . But I,m too content with what I use ...4198 for 300 gr and maybe 350 gr bullets and 2230 for 400 gr and up ...... If you have a big rifle ,ie CZ , Enfield or a long model 70 go with the Lott . But If you want a great very packable power house stick with the Win Mag .....It gives pretty dramatic results when loaded right and shot well ..And it is easier to shoot well than the Lott is ....

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Harry Selby, Finn Aagaard, Joe Coogan, Richard Harland, Mike LaGrange and hundreds of highly experienced PH's seem to think the standard 458 is plenty - even Jack Lott said he was only after 2150fps - and current 458 loads easily do that with low pressure.

458Win,
Add to that legions of hunters that used the 450 3-1/4" Nitro Express and its like firing a 500gr at a nominal 2150fps ... the ammunition of the time probably never reached those speeds in 'real rifles' as opposed to 28" test barrels. I think it's all horses for courses, you use what your happiest with knowing that even under the worst case scenario it'll more likely be accurate shooting and maybe some luck that saves the day.
Cheers...
Con
Cheers...
Con

Right you are Con. Thanks for the input of sanity and reason.
Just remember not to get between a true believer and his religion.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Harry Selby, Finn Aagaard, Joe Coogan, Richard Harland, Mike LaGrange and hundreds of highly experienced PH's seem to think the standard 458 is plenty - even Jack Lott said he was only after 2150fps - and current 458 loads easily do that with low pressure.

+1

History speaks for itself, these guys didn't have the better powders we have today but it worked for them.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:


I have not done any other than my wood shooting tests , Tho not with the new Hornady bullets .....I am very glad they came out with them in 480 gr ....The reason is , just because... I always wanted to shoot 480 gr bullets in my rifle ...........

I,ve been shooting 2230 in my rifle since I had it built in 94 , and I wish I had known about it in 86 when I got my 1st 458 win mag .... It sure beats 3031 ........4198 and Accurate 2230 are the 2 ,458 Win mag powders for me ....I think 2015 BR and maybe 2520 are good powders . But I,m too content with what I use ...4198 for 300 gr and maybe 350 gr bullets and 2230 for 400 gr and up ...... If you have a big rifle ,ie CZ , Enfield or a long model 70 go with the Lott . But If you want a great very packable power house stick with the Win Mag .....It gives pretty dramatic results when loaded right and shot well ..And it is easier to shoot well than the Lott is ....

Appreciate the response. I am going to get some 2230 and I have some 480gr on the way and also some 500gr RN. My rifle is a BRNO 602.

IanD,

I'll refer you to the Hornaday Reloading Manual, which gives great info on AA 2230 and the 458wm, though data is limited to the 500 grainers. My rifle is a double and has 26" barrels, even with the limitations of achieving a load that shoots to regulation, my load, which is not max and not near max, gives 2145fps with the 500's and AA 2230. Excellent performance on buff and eles.

Using Woodleighs, I found no significant gain with 480 grainers over the 500's, mostly because the cannelure position of the 480 grainers is too far forward for the 458wm, though ideal for the 450NE's. The forward canelure position of the Woodleigh 480's leads to compaction issues, unlike the 500's with their more rearward cannelure. I wonder if the DGS's might have similar Cannelure placement...

BTW, Woodleigh does occasionally make 480's, as a special run, with 458wm placed rearward cannelures.

Lastly, if your looking to use the RN Hornadays, make sure they have steel jackets, they made a brass "encapsulated" round nose for a while that was a disaster. A megnet will let you know if the RN Hornadays have steel jackets.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
And the 460 Wby trumps the Lott in power. When is enough enough?
There are no flies on the Lott, it is a great round, but I question why, if someone honestly believes that the Lott is that much superior to the standard Win, why don't they use the 460 Wby?
Harry Selby, Finn Aagaard, Joe Coogan, Richard Harland, Mike LaGrange and hundreds of highly experienced PH's seem to think the standard 458 is plenty - even Jack Lott said he was only after 2150fps - and current 458 loads easily do that with low pressure.

One reason to use the Lott over the 460 Weatherby is magazine capacity. Probably not an issue when hunting bears but it is important when hunting elephants. An extra round can make the difference. IMHO the Lott really comes into its own on elephant when using the 550 grain Woodleigh solid. You can get it to 2,150 fps. You can't do that with the 458 Win. Penetration is outstanding. I will pit it against any of the FN solids of 500 grain weight in the .458 dia rifles.

465H&H

465 have you used the FN Mono solids on elephant ..???????????????? I,m not convinced the heavier bullets really do anything other than break stocks and make shooting more difficult because of the heavier recoil ... Someone needs to do a RIP standardized , sealed 5 gallon bucket ,stair stringer supported, water penetration test .....

I have read that the calibre 458 Lott with the shot that works best with the 465 grains. The 458 WM will not be more effective with this weight?

A greeting


Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
465 have you used the FN Mono solids on elephant ..???????????????? I,m not convinced the heavier bullets really do anything other than break stocks and make shooting more difficult because of the heavier recoil ... Someone needs to do a RIP standardized , sealed 5 gallon bucket ,stair stringer supported, water penetration test .....

Gumboot458,
No I haven't used FN solids on elephants as yet but hope to change that in November. Have you ever shot an elephant? I have with 550 grain bullets from a Lott and I can promise you they do penetrate deeper at 2,150 fps than a 500 at 2,150 fps. Like over six feet on a frontal head shot equal to what has been reported for FN solids.

465H&H

Its a personal choice really some love the lott some dont some love the winchester and some don't they both have their own place in hunting and that's all that can be said lott will just do it at a higher velocity

Both the Woodleigh and GS are excellent. I have used both without problem.

I haven't used the GS solid in the Lott or WM, but have done so with the Dakota at about 2400fps. I never recovered one on either elephant or buffalo. It hits like a wadcutter and does one helluva lot of damage for a solid.

The 500 gr GS is borderline too long for the Lott and is too long for the WM. I think with either of these, I would lean toward a lead-based bullet like a Woodleigh. Woodleighs are fine bullets and by no means obsolete.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
.458 Win
2230 500 HDY RN 64.8 1,900 72.0 2,159 53,808 3.305

.458 Lott
2230 500 HDY RN 74.0 2,077 82.0 2,275 60,000 3.600

2520 500 HDY RN 77.0 2,100 86.0 2,310 61,000 3.600

As I stated, no practical difference. The Lott is actually higher pressure too.

wrong powder, sir.

this is like the 45/70 crowd that had "realized" that the 458 winmag "is barely any better"

give it a rest.

the lott goes, SPEC, 150 fps faster at the same pressure.

Jeff;

You're wrong there... check out www.accuratepowder.com

That's PSI not CUP. The Lott shows significantly higher pressure (61,000 psi vs. 52,864 psi for the Winchester)with only about 100 fps difference. Load the Winchester to the same psi and there's practically no difference, sir.

My computer program for internal ballistics shows about the same thing. Hornady's manual, 7th edition, has it about right... 50 fps difference in favor of the Lott... at higher pressure.

Use monolithics in the Lott and Hornady's in the Winchester, same weight bullet, and the Lott has nil advantage! Any advantage in the Lott is in the minds of those who want to believe there is an advantage.

My Cz 550 in 458WM can easily be loaded like a Lott because of the long action... in fact longer, but I've a friend who can pretty well match my velocities in his 24" M70, 458 with 2 grains LESS powder!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:


Jeff;

You're wrong there... check out www.accuratepowder.com

That's PSI not CUP. The Lott shows significantly higher pressure (61,000 psi vs. 52,864 psi for the Winchester)with only about 100 fps difference. Load the Winchester to the same psi and there's practically no difference, sir.

My computer program for internal ballistics shows about the same thing. Hornady's manual, 7th edition, has it about right... 50 fps difference in favor of the Lott... at higher pressure.

Use monolithics in the Lott and Hornady's in the Winchester, same weight bullet, and the Lott has nil advantage! Any advantage in the Lott is in the minds of those who want to believe there is an advantage.

My Cz 550 in 458WM can easily be loaded like a Lott because of the long action... in fact longer, but I've a friend who can pretty well match my velocities in his 24" M70, 458 with 2 grains LESS powder!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Hi Bob,

I am quite happy with giving up "only" 50-100 fps

Ian

Seems to me Steve hornady indicated that their 458 Lott ammo is only 70 fps faster than the 458 Win. ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Seems to me Steve hornady indicated that their 458 Lott ammo is only 70 fps faster than the 458 Win. ammo.

I've chronographed both the Heavy mag .458 and the Hornady Lott ammo out of my CZ Lott and I got a consistent 2,150 from the win mag, and 2,300 on the nose from the Lott.

458 Only
I think we have to agree that the lott and the winmag have a saami max pressure of 62,366 PSI.

and we have to agree that, when loaded to spec length, the lott is a longer case

quote:

Use monolithics in the Lott and Hornady's in the Winchester, same weight bullet

Not the same length, sir, not the same starting pressure. That's why you chose to compare apples to blue.

if one REVERSED that.. its not "Fair" to the winmag


OF COURSE if you force them to the same available case capacity, results will be skewed .. and if you take the higher starting pressure of monos (yeah, REALLY), and compare that to hornady's, OF COURSE you get to take the worst possible case for the lott, and compare it to the best possible case for the winmag.

I'll do the math for you - at SPEC length
winmag with hornady
74.246 gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity
Winmag with a barnes 500X
61.665 gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity


Lott with hornady
87.574gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity
Lott with a barnes 500X
74.992 gr h20 AVAILABLE case capacity


Its OBVIOUS how this example EXTEREMELY skews the results .. the lott, using twice the starting pressure of the barnes bullet, with .75 gr more capacity than a hornady in a winmag .. ONLY goes 100FPS faster, at higher pressure.


quickload projects 175 fps faster, for the lott, at the same psi, with the same bullets.

Full stop -- man, I have to stop dicussing these things with people unwilling to start with a level playing field

quote:

Originally posted by Adrian Parham:
Seems to me Steve hornady indicated that their 458 Lott ammo is only 70 fps faster than the 458 Win. ammo.

really? WOW .. their website says differently.

Steve Hornady told me the same thing but I got the impression is was comparing their 458 Win heavy mag to their standard 458 Lott.

I see the Norma PH ammo is only listing the Lott velocities at 2150fps with 500 gr bullets as they feel that is enough.

Just checked Hornady #7 and the Win Mag gets 2200 with the 500gr RN with AA2230, and the Lott gets 2250 with the same bullet. Both listed as max.

Not worth arguing over. No practical difference in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by IanD:
Just checked Hornady #7 and the Win Mag gets 2200 with the 500gr RN with AA2230, and the Lott gets 2250 with the same bullet. Both listed as max.

Not worth arguing over. No practical difference in the field.

Hey, are you saying that 3/10th of an inch is nothing significant?

I am prepared to agree in practice, although theory dictates otherwise.

As the Nobel Prize winning University of Chicago T-Shirt says: "That works very well in practice . . . but how does it work in theory?"

Give me Roy's .460 any day and all day long.

Practice over theory so requires.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I see the Norma PH ammo is only listing the Lott velocities at 2150fps with 500 gr bullets as they feel that is enough.

It more than likely is ... plus it starts to hurt exponentially as the velocity goes up.
Cheers...
Con