This is directed at Jeff as he took issue with this rifle in another post, but all experiences and opinions are always welcome. Jeff stated that he's had problems with DG Model 70 Classics in the past. I've considered buying one, so I would like to know why I should pass, or what problems to look for when considering a purchase. I think this would be good info for all to know.

I have personaly ran across a couple of Classic model 70's with very Piss Poor machined receivers. One was so bad that the surface of the bolt was chewed up on both sides between the lugs because the bearing surfaces inside the receiver were roughly machined.

The heavy stock and the heavy barrel on the 375H&H.

I had a 458Win Mag that had to be worked over severely by previous owner to function. Included rear sight coming off, stock splitting etc.

I have also replaced the cast extractors with Williams ones, just in case.

I ended up selling my 375 and having a friend make me a Mod 70 Classic 375H&H from my 270, D'Arcy Echols stock and Duane Wiebe bottom metal through Australian distributor at the time. LW barrel profile same as my 1913 H&H 375 Belted Mag. Much lighter, balances well and is much nicer to shoot.

Have seen some horror stories like yours Matt. Especially from later production models IIRC.

Would love one in a RUM cartridge to make a 404J, they didn't import the RUM Mod 70 Classics to Aus.

I've not experienced any of the horror stories others relate.
Every Win M70 I own has been completely functional and reliable from day one.
I don't doubt the truth of the problems but I've never laid eyes on any of the problems described.
I own quite a few from 1980's pushfeeds up through fairly recent production, Super Grades, Classics and Sporters.
If you want one and it looks good buy it.

Ditto Snellstrom.
Maybe those bad ones were the first off the line on Monday AM and the last off the line Friday PM.

I have a couple of the New Haven M70 Classic Safari .416 Remington rifles. Walnut and chrome-moly,
one plain and one Custom Shop "Big Fiver 1 of 125" with the gold cape buffalo on the floorplate.
They work.

I have known many others, they gave me no problems, including the one that shot the tiniest, 3-shot, 100-yard group I have ever shot.
That was a stainless .375 H&H M70 Classic that I found at the first-ever Walmart in Anchorage AK, about 1993-1994.
I finally got around to having her re-chambered to .375 Wby in 2003.
That might have been my introduction to Rusty McGee, Gunsmith.

She was still in the tupperware stock,
though she had been re-chambered to .375 Wby, when she shot the tiny group:



Just to let her know I thought she was special, I re-stocked her with an HS Precision stock picked off the shelf at a Sportsman's Whorehouse store:



I also have 3 of the New Haven M70 Classic 300 RUM rifles that were trouble free, but because the 300 RUM in tupperware gets boring after a while,
they got re-stocked and re-barreled to 404 Jeffery, .416 Dakota, and .500/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved aka 12.7x68mm Magnum.
Those girls are hot too.







And my New Haven M70 Classic Stainless Featherweight 270 WCF that got turned into a 400 Whelen
was also not a MondayAM/FridayPM lemon.
She has a Duane Wiebe XRM sheetmetal box squeezed into her tupperware making her a
+3.6"-COaL sixshooter.
She could easily be turned into a 400 H&H by rechambering the barrel, and opening up the boltface,
like on Rockdoc's 270 WCF turned .375 H&H.
But I like this 400 Whelen-B too much to do that to her.
Would not be proper, would be just puttin' on airs and reducing magazine capacity:



That tupperware is too cute to get rid of, and she shoots, even with a stubby pistol bullet that is .001" smaller in diameter than her .411" groove,
and has to jump across .300" length of .412"-diameter parallel-sided free-bore,
for fire-forming:



Don't be afraid of the New Haven Classic.
Trust but verify that it is not a MondayAM/FridayPM lemon.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

I have owned 2 New Haven m70s. Both were supergrades that I ordered new at the same time, while I was on deployment to Afghanistan.

Both were inletted with chainsaws, finished by blind mice, and checkered by a woodpecker with a dull face.

Mine were of the Curt Crum (David Miller) designed stock period.

They were also not of the accuracy level you would expect with a product marked "super grade". Maybe 1.5-2.5 groups.

Both got bedded, both got their triggers adjusted then I got tired of them and they moved down the road.

I'm losing track of the Model 70s. So far I note the following:

1937-1941 Pre-War
1942-1945 Transition
1946-1963 Pre-64
1964-1968 Worst Ones
1969-Whenever Improved Pushfeeds
Dates variable:
Olin ownership to USRAC
Reintroduction Non-rotating extractor
SuperGrade
Classic?Featherweight
SuperExpress
Closing of New Haven Plant
Opening of South Carolina Plant

I suspect there are other groupings so please feel free to fill in the omissions, and those that have had problems with various models, please note which grouping was involved.

I must be lucky, every model 70 I've owned has been fine pretty much as it came from the factory. I think I have five or six of them now. My Safari Express .375 H&H is about the most accurate rifle I've ever owned.

It seems to me someone will always find fault with just about anything. Not that I don't believe them but my experience at least concerning Winchesters has been pretty good.

I have three New Haven Mod.70 300 Win Mags.All good no work needed.All accurate with one shooting a 200yds one hole five shot group.I once put a 458WM cartridge in the mag to see if it would feed it and it did.My CZ Lott's and 458 win Mag would not feed and needed to be sent to a smith.The magazine on a CZ 458WM is way to big for that cartridge as it is meant for the Rigby and larger.It needed a spacer to be soldered in the rear of the magazine and that still did not make things perfect.

The best ones are made today.

round about 2004 -- then onwards until the latest bankruptcy sale, there were CONSTANT quality control issue reports, here and on other sites. I have had several in that period, and not a SINGLE big bore (375, 416 rem, 458) would feed properly -- constant complaints about
1 feeding (first hand)
2 big bores breaking stocks (frist hand)
3 "bedding" material being more like silicon caulk than rock hard epoxy (first hand)
4 accuracy (both win and browning)
5 off center scope holes
6 - several featherweights in moderate calibers breaking stocks (saw some first hand)



about the time of the WSSM, the classic was becoming known as a jamamatic - fit and finish quality falling off, rough bolt cycling, etc etc etc

you could not GIVE me a 2006 model 70, as I saw them new, and they did look like what they were.. a machine assembled from mostly spare parts on worn out machines from a hostile, soon to be laid off, work force --

The winchester line was in trouble in 2004, doomed in 2005, and FN planned on rebuilding a totally new plant and machines in SC, and did -- allowing for the bankruptcy sale, (this is third hand) of worn out, substandard, poorly maintained machines - and then produced a state of the art action immediately following...

though i do see this as analogous to "classic car" frenzy -- look, i could, and did, buy 1969-1971 chevys, olds, and pontiacs for $500, and they weren't great cars NEW -- couldn't stop, couldn't turn, poor visibility, heavy, and not great QC -- and people are gaga over them today -- which just confounds me

it was standard practice HERE, for half a decade, to give the advice to new buyers of winchesters, to go have their smith make them feed and function properly -- I expect D'arcy made a good bit of money through doing exactly this

I have had two model 70 in 416 rem mag .The first one I.bought in 1998 and have shot it 1600 times no problem .The second one was made when they closed .It had a loose rear sight .I took it to the so called famous wild west guns who was a Winchester repair center .They were a bunch of jerks I would not buy anything from them any more .They fixed the site finally and I sold it .My other one has been an awesome rifle no complaints .I.need a good fiberglass stock on it for sure !

I traded for a 416 Rem Mag for resale a while back. I shot it yesterday, it shot well, no malfunctions. Its the Safari Express if anyone is interested.

As a lefty, I was thrilled when I heard they were making LH 70s.

I immediately ordered a 30/06 and a 375 H&H. The 30/06 I never could get to shoot so it went on down the road.

On the 375 H&H I had to replace the follower but the rifle shot great and I still have it. Barrel and stock are a little to large but it's a nice rifle.

My wife then bought me an African Express in 375 H&H from the custom shop, great rifle. I was offered a lot of cash for it so it went down the road.

I then came across a LH 416 Rem stainless from the custom shop, rare rifle. Never shot it and eventually sold it.

Finally, found a LH stainless in 270 Win with a wood stock. Very nice rifle shoots great.

I still have the 375 safari express and the 270 Win.

I never noticed any major issues with mine and wish they were still offered in LH.

Towards the end all I could find were WSM offerings and I had no interest in those.

I bought a LH Model 70 Classic stainless/synthetic for my son in 416 Rem. I immediately replaced the iron sights with NECGs, other than that and a little smoothing work it's been great. It's not easy to find a LH Mauser like CRF action in big bore calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I bought a LH Model 70 Classic stainless/synthetic for my son in 416 Rem. I immediately replaced the iron sights with NECGs, other than that and a little smoothing work it's been great. It's not easy to find a LH Mauser like CRF action in big bore calibers.

How did you replace the sights? Did you solder the new ones on? Did the original ones just screw off?

Mine have all been fine.

One has a trigger the previous owner messed up, but otherwise, I have been happy with them.

My guess is the cool kids can't be seen with off the shelf rifles.

So, the New haven plant hired blind mice for the Monday AM shift, and dull-faced woodpeckers for the Friday PM shift,
and the guy nicknamed "Texas Chainsaw" was a floater.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
My guess is the cool kids can't be seen with off the shelf rifles.

Especially if you could get them at Walmart for $699 in 1994.
Oh the shame of it all!


New Haven started making and selling the CRF M70 again in 1992. I thought it was before 1994.
They just started calling it the "Classic" in 1994.

I found a note from Chuck Hawks about that:

"In 1992 Winchester again revised the Model 70 action, this time restoring the full length extractor, receiver mounted ejector, coned breech, and controlled round feed (CRF) while retaining the other good features of the push feed Model 70 action. The new, revised action became the heart of the Classic models, available in many variations, which now constitute the bulk of the Model 70 line. There are super-short, short and standard length Model 70 Classic actions."

http://chuckhawks.com/win_70.htm

The 37th Ed. of Blue Book of Gun Values says:
"Beginning 1994, Winchester began using the Classic nomenclature to indicate those models featuring a pre-1964 style action with controlled round feeding.
"U.S. Repeating Arms closed its New Haven, CT manufacturing facility on March 31, 2006, and an auction was held on Sept. 27-28, 2006, selling the production equipment and related assets."

A trip down memory lane to refresh myself on the model names,
at the end of 2006, about the end-time for the New Haven M70 Classic I posted this,
trying to ease my own confusion, that was, and continues still:

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Winchester M70 CRF's and the forerunner PF:

XTR Super Express: was the pushfeed post-64 with 22" .458 WinMag and 24" .375 H&H, blue and walnut with barrel recoil lug secondary, the stock was an understated Monte Carlo with cheek piece, and some drop to the comb, excellent compromise for open sights and scope.

Classic Super Express: was the same gun style-wise as the XTR, but with CRF (Classic) starting in 1992, in .375, .416, and .458, though it did not get the "Classic" added to the name until 1994.

Classic Safari Express: 1999 make-over of the Classic Super Express, now with a different walnut stock, a straight comb, no cheekpiece, negative-drop stock that is higher at the heel than at the nose of the comb. Better with scope, not so good with iron sights.

"Safari Classic" would have to refer to the "Classic Safari Express" if you are talking M70's (see CZ "Safari Classic" also).

Super Grade: "select walnut" straight comb with classic cheekpiece, .270 to .338 calibers, and the RMEF Super Grade and the RMEF Super Grade III get into stainless barrels of 26" and 24" and .300 Winmag and .300 WSM and .325 WSM

Classic Stainless: This stainless CRF actioned, synthetic-stocked rifle was started in 1992 and was called "Classic" by 1994.
It was available in .300 RUM (no sights) and .375 H&H (with open sights), and no barrel-mounted secondary recoil lugs.

Classic Black Shadow: a subsequent cheaper version available in .300 RUM, matte black finished chrome-moly, with Phillips-head action screws, in the dying days of the (New Haven) Winchester M70.

If anyone can correct me or add to this, please do.

The Custom Shop offerings might add "Custom," "Ultimate," and "Big Five" adjectives to the above. And there is more than you can shake a stick at if you get out a book and start looking them all up.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

I've had no particular problems with any of my Model 70s (and all are New Haven made). For me, any factory rifle is just a starting point, but the Model 70 has been a great one for me.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
The best ones are made today.

Agree. I have several and have had no issues. I have only had trouble with pre-64's.

I have had lots of Model 70s, mostly New Haven CRF. All worked very well, but only one still has a factory barrel. The closest thing I have to a factory DG M-70 is a SS Classic that started life as a 375 H&H. I changed the barrel to a Winchester factory 416 Rem barrel. The rifle works perfectly.

As with any factory gun there are periods of good quality and bad quality. I have had some really good pre 64s and some really bad ones.....and I have had some REALLY bad Rem 700s.

I tend to use an aftermarket barrel and replace the stock, and I find the CRF M-70 action to be a superior choice for almost anything with a .473 or .532 rim. They are accurate, reliable, durable, and lightweight.

let's review --
pictures of restocked, gun smith worked on guns - check

many examples of "all fine, but this one"

several "can't shoot groups"

MANY replaced barrels --


let's say 20 posters, more than 1 with abject failure rate --

that's 4%, and we aren't even CLOSE to a valid sampling...

let's call it 50 total samples, more than 15 of those required gunsmithing "stuff"....

gentlemen, that's a catastrophic failure rate ... for something that, for all intents and purposes, a bomb held up to your face

btw, RIP, in 1993, the rem m700 and the win m70 where closer to 299 at walmart, savages at 199, and 10/22 at 109

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
For me, any factory rifle is just a starting point, but the Model 70 has been a great one for me.

yep .. in fact, i've been a preacher that a reasonably priced m70 is a better starting point for a custom gun than a mauser, for about 20 years -- once one changes a mausers trigger, bolt handle, bottom metal, safety, and alters for scope mounts, the m70 used to win the bang for the buck race, EVERY time..

and yet, the fact that we consider a purchased as a unit factory rifle as a starting point actually proves my point that they are NOT a high quality product as sold

and yet, the fact that we consider a purchased as a unit factory rifle as a starting point actually proves my point that they are NOT a high quality product as sold[/QUOTE]

Just like any other factory rifle brand if only using your analogy.

Some people especially those who frequent sites like this seem to enjoy making changes to any gun they buy to fit their personal preferences. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the functionality of the original product. I also don't think that represents the average buyer. Just look at the used gun section in any gunshop. How many are customs? Not very many.

So bottom line is if you like model 70's (I do) then buy them. If not, choose something else. That's the beauty of having so many choices.

I was unaware that Troll had been added to the Moderator's job description. Tell me it ain't so, Joe!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

btw, RIP, in 1993, the rem m700 and the win m70 where closer to 299 at walmart, savages at 199, and 10/22 at 109

Jeffe,
Your 1993 price check does not apply to a stainless/synthetic, CRF, M70 .375 H&H. Not even close, even for the rare Walmart that carried them,
like at the grand opening of the first ever Walmart in Alaska.
The mom & pop shops sure got hot about that back then, but they got used to it.

The prices of the usual M700 and M70 found in most Walmarts back then were within 25 bucks of each other.
But so what?
That makes the M70 even greater value if you can get one for about the same price as a Remington BDL.

I have owned over 2 dozen M70 Winchesters and never replaced a barrel because of a bad Winchester barrel.
I did it because I am a wildcatter, a legendary wildcatter, in my own mind, just like you.

But I do recall that my friend, Chief Thunderstick, had a Winchester Custom Shop Big Five "1 of 125" in 470 Capstick, a New Haven Classic,
that he said had a rough spot in the rifling near the muzzle, and it would keyhole with .474-caliber North Forks, but shot tiny groups with .475-caliber North Forks.
Go figure on that one,
what are the odds?

Anyway, the New Haven M70 Classic was generally a great buy, well worth it.
Much happier I am with one of those, as you too recommend, than a Mauser re-build, for the purposes of my redneck toys.
IIRC I once or thrice bought the M70 RUM used for about $600 or a little more for the stainless ones, and re-barreled those boring old 300 RUM rifles in tupperware stocks.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

quote:

Originally posted by ColoradoMatt:
This is directed at Jeff as he took issue with this rifle in another post, but all experiences and opinions are always welcome. Jeff stated that he's had problems with DG Model 70 Classics in the past. I've considered buying one, so I would like to know why I should pass, or what problems to look for when considering a purchase. I think this would be good info for all to know.

I have personaly ran across a couple of Classic model 70's with very Piss Poor machined receivers. One was so bad that the surface of the bolt was chewed up on both sides between the lugs because the bearing surfaces inside the receiver were roughly machined.

I have had a few New Haven Classics in 375 converted to other cals based on the same belted case. None have had an issue feeding, extracting or any other problem that wasn't caused by me. My only issue was my 375 would drop the sear if you racked the bolt real hard, I fixed the issue and it never occurred again. It only happened after I honed and adjusted the trigger.

I only have one remaining Classic stainless left, it is in a HS Precision Sporter stock and chambered in 375 Weatherby. It is one of my favourite guns actually.
The only other Model 70's I have are all Extreme Weather models made in South Carolina, I will not buy a Portuguese assembled rifle. It makes my skin crawl thinking about it.

Cheers.

Rip,
i am corrected, you are right - I don't believe i've seen a 375 or larger at walmart in a model 70... might have seen some 45/70 leverguns, but certainly no bolt gun bigbores

Let's see -- I LIKE winchesters, this isn't a polar discussion of that ALL winchesters are great - though there is a period of decline in quality that is important.

Cougarz,
I actually generally like the m70 - and I can see your point -- lord knows i've modified a rifle or 3 ...

I ask that you see mine, that the late New Haven model70s, which sold for a premium before the SC plant came on line, were made on machines from a failing company, in a failed business model, and there are greater than 3 sigma of failure rate in that portion of production

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I was unaware that Troll had been added to the Moderator's job description. Tell me it ain't so, Joe!

Hey Ray,
If you can factually dispute anything i've said, or offer correction, I am all ears -

Please point out a fact where I have made a mistake, I'll be happy to hear of it.

did USRAC go into decline, pointedly at the new haven plant, with employee count dropping from nearly 2,000 to right at 200 through 2005 and into 2006?? Did sales decline? did demand decline through 2005? Did USRAC/FN close the New Haven plant in 2006?

Did quality issues result? as six sigma practitioner, of COURSE a complex product with a demoralized work force had an increase in defects -

Did the New Haven plant close, model 70 production ceased, were the machines used to make the firearms sold at auction, rather than be moved to new plant? did FN build a new plant, and then did model 70 production resume at a new plant, with an engaged workforce, on new machines? Does this represent 10s of millions of investments by FN to make the model 70 great again?

But, hey, I am a troll because I remind people that there are a batch of model 70s made during a dark period of the brand's (not a company - winchester is a licensed product name) history?


Sorry guys, this is a cause of a really good brand having a really bad spot in their production history ...

quote:

and yet, the fact that we consider a purchased as a unit factory rifle as a starting point actually proves my point that they are NOT a high quality product as sold

No factory rifle is adequate in its factory form. They are all donors and the M-70 CRF is the best platform for a hunting rifle with a .473 or .532 rim size.

I really like the Model 70. Have 3 left-handed New Haven ones. Two had recalls for the safety. I bought a .338WM that had barrel canted at visibly noticeable angle and scope mount holes visibly crooked. Sent to USRAC for warranty service and they called and offered me a new rifle. No problems with the replacement rifle they sent me. All three rifles were very accurate with factory barrels.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

and yet, the fact that we consider a purchased as a unit factory rifle as a starting point actually proves my point that they are NOT a high quality product as sold

No factory rifle is adequate in its factory form. They are all donors and the M-70 CRF is the best platform for a hunting rifle with a .473 or .532 rim size.

I have had great success straight from the box on all of my M70's, especially the Extreme Conditions version. All (7 rifles) shot less than an inch after testing various factory ammo. Took one to Canada for Stone sheep, moose and goat. Shot flawlessly with less than 100 rounds fired testing it.

If a company cannot make a rifle that shoots well out of the box, they will not be in business long these days.

quote:

Originally posted by dogcat:

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

and yet, the fact that we consider a purchased as a unit factory rifle as a starting point actually proves my point that they are NOT a high quality product as sold

No factory rifle is adequate in its factory form. They are all donors and the M-70 CRF is the best platform for a hunting rifle with a .473 or .532 rim size.

I have had great success straight from the box on all of my M70's, especially the Extreme Conditions version. All (7 rifles) shot less than an inch after testing various factory ammo. Took one to Canada for Stone sheep, moose and goat. Shot flawlessly with less than 100 rounds fired testing it.

If a company cannot make a rifle that shoots well out of the box, they will not be in business long these days.

And you are okay with inch groups? Not me. That said, the Extreme Weathers do seem to hit on all marks. Very durable, reliable, lightweight, and reasonably accurate. Might only have to replace the barrel on one of those.......

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Hey Ray,
If you can factually dispute anything i've said, or offer correction, I am all ears -

Please point out a fact where I have made a mistake, I'll be happy to hear of it.

did USRAC go into decline, pointedly at the new haven plant, with employee count dropping from nearly 2,000 to right at 200 through 2005 and into 2006?? Did sales decline? did demand decline through 2005? Did USRAC/FN close the New Haven plant in 2006?

Did quality issues result? as six sigma practitioner, of COURSE a complex product with a demoralized work force had an increase in defects -

Did the New Haven plant close, model 70 production ceased, were the machines used to make the firearms sold at auction, rather than be moved to new plant? did FN build a new plant, and then did model 70 production resume at a new plant, with an engaged workforce, on new machines? Does this represent 10s of millions of investments by FN to make the model 70 great again?

But, hey, I am a troll because I remind people that there are a batch of model 70s made during a dark period of the brand's (not a company - winchester is a licensed product name) history?


Sorry guys, this is a cause of a really good brand having a really bad spot in their production history ...

Some clarification: When using only printed communication only about 7% of the total message is communicated - the other 93% is filled in by the reader. I do not know the moderators age, but by his/her content I would place him/her in the "Hey" generation. Considering the span of generations using this site it is understandable and should be expected that a comment of one will have a different meaning to someone else who is viewing it through a different perspective.
My criticism was based on prior comments that for brevity lumped virtually all M70s into a group of poorly constructed rifles. One comment made by another poster indicated the biggest problem was with those M70s made prior to 1964. another comment indicated that the M70s made prior to 1964 were excessively priced. The comment regarding GM cars shows a bias founded on ideology exceeded only by students at Cal Berkeley.
Be all of that as may, one person has some money, another has a product. If the former sees more value than the price, he/she will offer his money for the product. If the latter sees the amount offered as exceeding his/her expected return for the product, then an exchange is made. Each leaves the transaction better off for it. For a third person to interject a value judgment on the terms of the exchange is without merit.

Hopefully more than the theoretical 7% of this message will get through.

What is a "hey generation"?

Isn't it supposed to be the "Hey, dude . . . " generation? Speaking as a card-carrying member, of course.

BTW, another great starting point rifle is the CZ 550 Magnum.

I could almost be persuaded to sell my Blasers and stick with my Win. M70 and CZ 550 Magnum actioned big bores.

Hey Micheal -- I've never heard of "hey" or "hey dude" generation ..

i figured i'd ask a question .. still waiting on clarification ...

quote:

I do not know the moderators age

Jeff is functionally 12 years old, just like all the rest of us here......

Jeff, just a point of order, nothing more.

I seldom invoke Roberts Rules, but "Hey," without"dude," is a major infraction.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Isn't it supposed to be the "Hey, dude . . . " generation? Speaking as a card-carrying member, of course.

BTW, another great starting point rifle is the CZ 550 Magnum.

I could almost be persuaded to sell my Blasers and stick with my Win. M70 and CZ 550 Magnum actioned big bores.

I like my CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery a whole lot. The thing is just so solid and tight, yet smooth. Feels like I'm chambering a round in a 10" naval gun. Accurate as all get out with the 1 in 10" twist 24" McGowen barrel. It's well balanced, feels light in my hands. I just like the hell out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:


Let's see -- I LIKE winchesters, this isn't a polar discussion of that ALL winchesters are great - though there is a period of decline in quality that is important.

Cougarz,
I actually generally like the m70 - and I can see your point -- lord knows i've modified a rifle or 3 ...

I ask that you see mine, that the late New Haven model70s, which sold for a premium before the SC plant came on line, were made on machines from a failing company, in a failed business model, and there are greater than 3 sigma of failure rate in that portion of production

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I was unaware that Troll had been added to the Moderator's job description. Tell me it ain't so, Joe!

Hey Ray,
If you can factually dispute anything i've said, or offer correction, I am all ears -

Please point out a fact where I have made a mistake, I'll be happy to hear of it.

did USRAC go into decline, pointedly at the new haven plant, with employee count dropping from nearly 2,000 to right at 200 through 2005 and into 2006?? Did sales decline? did demand decline through 2005? Did USRAC/FN close the New Haven plant in 2006?

Did quality issues result? as six sigma practitioner, of COURSE a complex product with a demoralized work force had an increase in defects -

Did the New Haven plant close, model 70 production ceased, were the machines used to make the firearms sold at auction, rather than be moved to new plant? did FN build a new plant, and then did model 70 production resume at a new plant, with an engaged workforce, on new machines? Does this represent 10s of millions of investments by FN to make the model 70 great again?

But, hey, I am a troll because I remind people that there are a batch of model 70s made during a dark period of the brand's (not a company - winchester is a licensed product name) history?


Sorry guys, this is a cause of a really good brand having a really bad spot in their production history ...

I now see your point regarding the last years of New Haven manufacturing. You are correct that they indeed fell apart in the end. Unfortunately this seemed to have become the new American business model. Some learned and survived, some didn't and died.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Isn't it supposed to be the "Hey, dude . . . " generation? Speaking as a card-carrying member, of course.

BTW, another great starting point rifle is the CZ 550 Magnum.

I could almost be persuaded to sell my Blasers and stick with my Win. M70 and CZ 550 Magnum actioned big bores.

I am a proponent of "hey dude". I don't like the word sir. Even though my dad was from Texas, he never liked being called sir or calling someone sir. So through my own upbringing I was never made to call anyone sir or mr. He was born in 1940, and hated the term.

I did 20 years in the military, have been working since the Monday after I retired and still hate the word sir.

The only time I will use it is if I don't know someone and they call me sir first.

I was born in the mid 1970's and grew up listening to Metallica, Chris Ledoux and a hole host of people 5 or 10 years older than me that also hated the establishment.

Even now in my second childhood (42), dude is the way I talk. Infused with an incredible amount of profanity learned while in the military, and a mix of 1980's West Coast Surfer and Wyoming cowboy.

Our generation is becoming gentrified, very stupid.