It appears grammar is no longer being taught in school. "Hey" is a vocative and is used improperly to gain attention of someone. Use of it was generally ridiculed - until a quartet came from UK with a song that began "Hey, Jude". As with several thing celebrity, fame superseded custom and it has become normal for those so inclined to follow.
With regard to criticizing Winchester M 70s I understand the main focus of the comments is that the last few years of operation resulted in very poor quality control. the newest M 70 that I was involved with was a Super Express 458 Win Mag built in 1996 and it was a perfectly functional rifle as it came out of the box.
To claim all M70s a best used as the basis for a custom build, while they are very good for using as the basis of a custom rifle, is to say that they are not a quality rifle from the factory. As noted, I am not familiar with the rifles built in 2006, however to claim that all M70s (some included pre-64s) are not worth the price and lack quality in assembly and function is somewhat like claiming that everything Beethoven wrote is poor because he has produced nothing in nearly 200 years.

I bought two of the current winchester
M70's in 375 H&H magnum, and they are tack drivers. Guess I was lucky but for accuracy, they are far better than two pre 64 model 70's in 375 H&H I previously owned. Winchester must be doing something right with their current barrels.

I think making mass produced accurate rifle barrels has arrived. Witness inexpensive rifles like Savage selling tack drivers at incredibly low prices. Back in pre-64 days it was more of an art. Custom barrel makers like Krieger, etc will always do a bit better but the gap is shrinking. I've only heard good things about the new M70s. I wish they were still made in South Carolina though.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
I think making mass produced accurate rifle barrels has arrived. Witness inexpensive rifles like Savage selling tack drivers at incredibly low prices. Back in pre-64 days it was more of an art. Custom barrel makers like Krieger, etc will always do a bit better but the gap is shrinking. I've only heard good things about the new M70s. I wish they were still made in South Carolina though.

And I wish they had original Model 70 triggers.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
let's review --
pictures of restocked, gun smith worked on guns - check

many examples of "all fine, but this one"

several "can't shoot groups"

MANY replaced barrels --


let's say 20 posters, more than 1 with abject failure rate --

that's 4%, and we aren't even CLOSE to a valid sampling...

let's call it 50 total samples, more than 15 of those required gunsmithing "stuff"....

gentlemen, that's a catastrophic failure rate ... for something that, for all intents and purposes, a bomb held up to your face

btw, RIP, in 1993, the rem m700 and the win m70 where closer to 299 at walmart, savages at 199, and 10/22 at 109

LOL
I hope statistical analyst isn't your day job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_bias

In 1996 I bought a New Haven M70 in 375 H&H marked "Super Express."

I couldn't get it to group, no matter what load (all factory) I tried.

Roger Ferrell, a highly experienced and well-respected gunsmith in Atlanta, worked it over and it still wouldn't group.

Finally Roger replaced the original barrel with a take-off, New Haven M70 barrel, and then it grouped just fine, with Speer Nitrex factory ammo.

Some years later, for a DG safari in Zimbabwe, I switched to handloads (Nitrex ammo was discontinued) and groups were even better.

I offer no opinion about New Haven rifles; just adding my experience to the Mix.

I know i am acting a bit juvenile and pedantic in the later portion of this post -- for, you see, my inner 12 year old was busy learning debate, rhetoric, and algebra II .. formal logic and political science were a bit later in my, decidedly public school and somewhat pedestrian, education

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Jeff, just a point of order, nothing more.

I seldom invoke Roberts Rules, but "Hey," without"dude," is a major infraction.

LOL -- i can go along with that

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:

quote:

I do not know the moderators age

Jeff is functionally 12 years old, just like all the rest of us here......

LMAO --- i've been told 12.. some days, 10 -- and my wife is always right!

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Isn't it supposed to be the "Hey, dude . . . " generation? Speaking as a card-carrying member, of course.

BTW, another great starting point rifle is the CZ 550 Magnum.

I could almost be persuaded to sell my Blasers and stick with my Win. M70 and CZ 550 Magnum actioned big bores.

I like my CZ 550 in 500 Jeffery a whole lot. The thing is just so solid and tight, yet smooth. Feels like I'm chambering a round in a 10" naval gun. Accurate as all get out with the 1 in 10" twist 24" McGowen barrel. It's well balanced, feels light in my hands. I just like the hell out of it.

and a great rifle, that the first lot of them cam over as actions, and semi-custom gunsmithed out of, iirc, 3 rivers, but i could be failing under CRS

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
let's review --
...that's 4%, and we aren't even CLOSE to a valid sampling...

LOL
I hope statistical analyst isn't your day job.

Nope, thank goodness .. I know just enough to declare my sampling as invalid, by virtue of being too small to be enough to draw a conclusion -- as I have bolded in the ellipsed quote above

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
It appears grammar is no longer being taught in school. "Hey" is a vocative and is used improperly to gain attention of someone.

As you injected the use of the term, i merely asked for your clarification of your personal meaning, as "'hey' generation isn't a term that I am able to place into context. Would you mind giving us your POV on your intent? After all, you are quoting one of thousands of communications theories, and I am pretty well convinced your intention of inference is somewhere about the [sic] 7% transmitted by the written word. I, for one, wouldn't presume to infer the other 93%, and look to you to supply your meaning. Your inference is somewhat lost on me.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

Use of it was generally ridiculed

and yet, well, it is your words that used this -- pray, tell us your meaing

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

- until a quartet came from UK with a song that began "Hey, Jude". As with several thing celebrity, fame superseded custom and it has become normal for those so inclined to follow.

quite a bit of distracting comments regarding a simple question - it's not like I am asking for interpretive dance to align your idiosyncratic phrasing to common use

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:


With regard to criticizing Winchester M 70s I understand the main focus of the comments is that the last few years of operation resulted in very poor quality control.

Actually, the question asked directly to you, which, in polite society, is generally answered for clarification, was to point out any factual inconsistencies you might be able to add to the conversation

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

the newest M 70 that I was involved with was a Super Express 458 Win Mag built in 1996 and it was a perfectly functional rifle as it came out of the box.

wonderful - if the plural of anecdote isn't data, when what could we describe the singular as?- nor is it relevant to the topic of the post - to quote ".... new haven CLASSIC model 70s in DG calibers {emphasis added}. If one understands that the brand name of classic has a time constrained meaning, the subject of conversation precludes and excludes all but those made in a rather narrow time band of production. It doesn't include pre-64s, pre"classic" actions, post-64s in general, and all non DG (that's short hand for dangerous game, calibers in range include 375, 416 rem, 458 win, though excludes all custom shop calibers, such as 470 capstick, 404 jeffe, and the often quoted, but not a single example seen in the wild, 416 rigby

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

To claim all M70s a best used as the basis for a custom build, while they are very good for using as the basis of a custom rifle, is to say that they are not a quality rifle from the factory.

this isn't the topic, though, as defined by the original poster, we call those OP, not by the subject matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:


As noted, I am not familiar with the rifles built in 2006,

subject matter are those circa 2005 - would you care to restate your specific, first hand knowledge of the topic?

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

however to claim that all M70s (some included pre-64s)

this is referred to as a strawman - in fact, no one said this, other than yourself - feel free to search - what was said that those built in the specific era went up dramatically, was stated, and with the agreed (in fact, you, yourself did) that these models suffered a quality decline is "generally" stipulated. a note on statements that include "generally" and "everyone knows" .. these are exculpatory statements, meant to be used to later vilify those that disagree, but are actually the author's suppositions and/or opinions that are stated as facts, meant to be used as a point of inferred authority of the author.. or, in my case, i am just being lazy and can't be arsed to look it up

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:


are not worth the price and lack quality in assembly and function

uhm.. no one, but yourself, did this

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

is somewhat like claiming that everything Beethoven wrote is poor because he has produced nothing in nearly 200 years.

uhm, it's been only 11.2 years since the NH plant closed -- and they made models 70s today -- i really don't follow the relevance of your "absurd, but understandable analogy to the rather narrow, specific, line of poor (generally agreed ) quality control group of model 70s, made circa 2005 ---


perhaps, to make the other 93% clear (you do know this is a roundly discredited theory, right?) of my message, I can offer a bit of interpretive dance

okay -- i am being a little jerky today -- do read the above post as if steven wright were giving it, tongue in cheek

OK, that was entertaining.

Also would be entertaining if one could tell when a New Haven M70 was made between 1992 and 2006 by serial number, eh?

If anyone can give any ballpark about Serial Number of any one New Haven M70 Classic rifle by year made,
that might be more entertaining than an anecdote.

Alas, official records of those serial numbers for years are hard to find.
Any books I have on hand just have numbers for years 1935 through 1991, like found at the web site below.

1935: Serial numbers 1 through 19 for the first year, and sequentially thereafter ending at 928908 for 1968.

In 1969 they added a "G" prefix to the serial numbers, 1969 ended with G941900

1991 serial numbers ended with G2037985, sequentially I assume, over 2 million (2,037,985) since the 1935 Numero Uno M70.
That included Pre-'64 CRF and post-'64 PF.
The revived, Post-'64/Post-1991 CRF started in 1992 and it was designated as "M70 Classic" from 1994 to 2006.

I have that CRF Winchester M70 I bought at the grand opening of the first-ever Anchorage Walmart in 1993-1994 (I will try to pin down the date): Edit: Strike through 1994, it had to be 1993 when I got my first "Classic" because it was a glorious, sunny, balmy, 70-degree F summer day in Anchorage I do recall. By 1994 summer I was sweating in Kentucky.

That ballparks the 1992-1993 serial numbers for M70 Classics as being somewhere under G-200,000.
My 1993 was under G-140,000 serial number.

On the left side of the barrel it says:

----WINCHESTER(R) MODEL 70 375 H&H MAG----
----------MADE IN NEW HAVEN, CT U.S.A.-----------

On the right side of the barrel it says:
---CLASSIC STAINLESS---

But the serial number is: G1398xx, under 140,000
Should have been over 2,000,000 if sequential with pre-1992 production. They must have started over again at G-0 with the Classic?
It is a different rifle altogether than the M70 PF of 1969-1991 G-numbers.
OK, would make sense to start over.

Here are a few of mine lying about, I'll try to connect years to them as possible, though some were bought used long after year of manufacture:

M70 Classic Stainless .375 H&H: G1398xx .................... 1993 (according to my possibly faulty memory)
M70 Classic Stainless 270 WCF: G1524xx .....................
M70 Classic Super Express 375 H&H: G2866xx .................
M70 Classic Stainless 300 RUM: G3375xx ......................
M70 Classic Stainless 300 RUM: G3383xx ......................
M70 Classic Safari Express .416 RemMag: G3426xx ... 2001 ... Still Under 350,000 ......................
M70 Classic Black Shadow 300 RUM: G3570xx ......... Now it's Over 350,000 .................... (edit: not 3.5 million!)
M70 Custom Safari Express Big Five Edition V .416 RemMag: G00xxBF5 ... (Cape Buffalo) last of annual series ended 2004
M70 Classic Stainless Short Action 300 WSM: G24450xx ... 2003.....Over 2.4 Million .... (highest Classic SN I have)


I guesstimate the "G-2-Million-Plus" serial numbers
might be suspect of "Circa 2005-2006 New Haven Syndrome," but that one of mine: NO PROBLEMS.

It would be nice if the "Classic" serial number records were not so "secret."

The FN made-in-SC and Portuguese-assembled M70 rifles share a multi-alpha-numeric SN system
(a big X is part of the alpha serial below and a little x is an ingognito numeric serial below, as used also above):

FN/SC M70 Extreme Weather SS SA 300 WSM: 35AMN177xx ...................................... 2009
FN/SC M70 Extreme Weather SS LA .338 WinMag: 35CZX082xx .................................. 2013
FN/SC M70 ALASKAN .375 H&H: 35CZY071xx ................................................... 2012
FN/SC M70 Ultimate Shadow Bolt Action Rifle 7mm RemMag: 35CZX0661xx ...................... 2013
FN/SC M70 Super Grade Safari Rifle .458 WinMag: 35CZZ046xx ............................... 2011
...
Portuguese-assembled M70 Ultimate Shadow SS LA 30-06 Spfld: 35EZX029xx ................... 2013 .......
(discontinued before 2016, but purchased by me in 2017 at local emporium, this is the only M70 I have that says
"Assembled In Portugal" on the barrel)

Those letter codes make the numbers enigmatic, without a de-coder ring on your finger.


The ancient history from the web site:

http://www.midwestgunworks.com...model-70-information

Production Type by Year of Manufacturer:
1935-1963: Pre ’64 Winchester Repeating Arms Company
1964-2006: USRAC (U.S. Repeating Arms Co.)
2008-Current: New Winchester Production
While dating your Model 70 by serial number can be difficult, and there are many “legends” about why the historic serial number records for Winchester rifles and shotguns are not complete or why they are not always verifiable. A few reasons cited are:
• A fire at the factory
• Inadvertent destruction (during office cleaning)
• Records simply lost in filing
• Records misplaced between ownership transitions
• Documents borrowed but not returned

There is probably some kernel of truth to all of them. But the fact remains; there is no original, single, totally accurate database of serial numbers from 1866 forward that we are aware of. But perhaps this page can help you somewhat in your research.

RECORDS AT THE FACTORY INDICATE THE FOLLOWING SERIAL NUMBERS WERE ASSIGNED TO GUNS AT THE END OF THE CALENDAR YEAR

1935 - 1 TO 19
36 - 2238
37 - 11573
38 - 17844
39 - 23991
40 - 31675
41 - 41753
42 - 49206
43 - 49983
44 - 49997
45 - 50921
46 - 58382
47 - 75675
48 - 101680
49 - 131580 50 - 173150
51 - 206625
52 - 238820
53 - 282735
54 - 323530
55 - 361025
56 - 393595
57 - 425283
58 - 440792
59 - 465040
60 - 504257
61 - 545446
62 - 565592
63 - 581471 1964 – 700000 to 740599
65 - 809177
66 - 833795
67 - 869000
68 - 928908
69 - G941900
70 - G957995
71 - G1018991
72 - G1099257
73 - G1128731
74 - G1175000
75 - G1218700
76 - G1266000
77 - G1350000 78 - G1410000
79 - G1447000
80 - G1490709
81 - G1537134
82 - G1632872
83 - G1656883
84 - G1728457
85 - G1783276
86 - G1808838
87 - G1845122
88 - G1893903
89 - G1950701
90 - G1987984
91 - G2037985
Records for rifles produced after 1992 have not been released. However you can call Winchester Firearms directly to inquire about the date of production on your rifle. Winchester can be reached directly at 800-333-3288.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

My last M70 was a 375 I owned made in Portugal.

It was wonderful. I bedded it and adjusted the trigger.

I killed a lot of those dangerous Mojave Desert Rocks from far away.

I only have one Model 70, a left handed, Classic Safari Express in 375 H&H that I bought in 2004 from the last run of lefty Safari Classics that were made at New Haven.

It came with the flexible silicon bedding, the heavy barrel and the cast extractor.

I had it re-bedded with epoxy and change the extractor for a stainless Williams one.

I left the barrel alone and never touched the feeding and at just over 2,000 rounds I've never had it mis-feed. When I shoot this barrel out, I'm going to be scared to death to re-barrel it because it shoots like the glory of God now and I'm afraid that I'll never be able to find a new barrel that shoots as well.

Mine is serial number G3779XX

I just love it when in the process of civil discourse information is provided and clarified. For the record I've had involvement with three post-64 Model 70s. All were exemplary factory rifles, they were:
1 G193XX Super Grade 338 Win Mag 1991
2. G235XX Classic Featherweight 30-06 1993
3. G1664XX Super Express 458 Win Mag 1996

Rip,
it may have been entertaining ... though i was being a bit of a jerk -- thanks for the list

Sure seems to be a "rash" of those QC problems showing up in exactly the models discussed -- I'd go so far as to say some design flaws -- i forgot the cast extractor ---

so, as far as i can remember, at 5am before going out for my morning jog
1 feeding (first hand)
2 big bores breaking stocks (frist hand)
3 "bedding" material being more like silicon caulk than rock hard epoxy (first hand)
4 accuracy (both win and browning)
5 off center scope holes
6 - several featherweights in moderate calibers breaking stocks (saw some first hand)
7: cast extractors
8: rough finish/working the bolt feels like stirring concrete with rebar

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I just love it when in the process of civil discourse information is provided and clarified.

and still waiting for your end of that civil discourse - I am still awaiting your definition of "'Hey' generation" ...

If Winchester ever cleaned up their act I'd be out of a job.

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
If Winchester ever cleaned up their act I'd be out of a job.

Ha! Ain't that the truth!!!

quote:

Originally posted by DArcy_Echols_Co:
If Winchester ever cleaned up their act I'd be out of a job.

And thanks for this Ray B:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

.............. G235XX Classic Featherweight 30-06 1993 ..................

A low G-number under 24,000 in 1993 and it was called a "Classic" though the name was not official according to The Blue Book until 1994.
I suppose your rifle could have been made in 1992-1993,
after the "Classic re-set" from the G-numbers over 2-million at the end of 1991.
We are getting there.
Soon we will have all the "Classic" serial numbers in year brackets.


There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

I have owned 7 Model 70 classic rifles with serial numbers below G200,000. None of them had crooked screw holes, badly machined bolts, broken stocks, etc. Here is a photo of one early Supergrade with serial G21XXX that I still own.

lindy2,

Thank you for that low G-number, under 22,000.
That must be first year production of the "Classic" rifle, 1992-1993.
Is the barrel marked "Classic" or what?
We know that happened Pre-'94.

Does anyone have a higher number than my G-2.4-millionish 300 WSM?

They might have made about 2.5 million Classics from 1992 to 2006, if one can believe serial numbers are truly sequential.
More than the 2,037,985 "Pre-1992" Winchester M70's that came before?

So if they made about 3 million M70 Classics in 15 years, 1992-2006?
That would be about 200,000 per year on average.

Maybe they started off making 100,000 Classics per year and had to more than double that production to keep up with demand?
Did they start pumping them out toward the end of USRAC at New Haven and flood the market with a bunch of lemons, or what?
Wore out the machines or the market or both?


There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

RIP

No, it does not say "Classic" on it. I just assumed that it was a "Classic".

What is stamped on the barrel is this:

Winchester Model 70 Super Grade 300 Win. Mag.

I have no personal knowledge of it, but I suspect that there were not 3.5 million classics made. Rather, I suspect that the numbering system was changed through the years. I don't have a speculation as to why though.

With regard to the number of pre-64 model 70's, I seriously doubt there is more than a few hundred thousand of them. I suspect that during that time serial numbers were sequential throughout Winchester's entire product line in some way.
__________________________________________


For the original poster:

I just learned today a tip for how to make an important decision.
Here you go.

Here's something you can do the next time you are overwhelmed by the thought of making an important decision.

Take a piece of paper and fold it in half vertically. On one side, put down everything you know from experience. On the other side, put down the facts and figures you've been told.

Then do this: Tear the page in half (vertically) and toss all those facts and figures in the garbage. You'll then have everything you need to know to make the right decision.

Will you ever miss out on a great opportunity? Possibly. But my experience tells me you'll go broke a hundred times before you succeed at something you have no experience in.

_________________________________________


I have found the substance of that advice to be very true when purchasing guns. Each gun is an individual. Advice based on what someone else has seen or done with their gun might not be true for the particular gun I might want to purchase.

In my old age I have concluded that it may be best to only buy used guns. And then only if I am allowed to take the gun apart to inspect it, and only if I am allowed to shoot it.

Have I missed out on some guns I would have purchased because of that? Yes I have. But its been a long time since I've been screwed on a gun purchase!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I just love it when in the process of civil discourse information is provided and clarified.

and still waiting for your end of that civil discourse - I am still awaiting your definition of "'Hey' generation" ...

crickets --

I reviewed the ages of people who use "Hey" as a prefix to a persons name and find that they are multi-generation. The recent sampling included a 60 year old, a 36 year old, and a 17 year old.
So I retract my statement regarding the "Hey generation" and replace it with "Hey" is for horses.

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:

"Hey" is for horses.

Straw is cheaper......

Ray, I am seriously here.

That is so lame.

Hey is for friends.

Hey, dude, is for really good friends.

I love learning, hearing, and talking about guns. I think that's what we are all mostly here for. Every one has their own opinions based on their own experiences, and we (myself, anyway, and I guess one might call this "uninformed") certainly form opinions based on multiple reports of positive and negative. I really don't see why folks have to resort to being pecker heads to each other. I know I'm wasting my breath, but I just had to say it.

Thank you, all, for sharing your experiences and opinions. I appreciate it.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
I have owned 7 Model 70 classic rifles with serial numbers below G200,000. None of them had crooked screw holes, badly machined bolts, broken stocks, etc. Here is a photo of one early Supergrade with serial G21XXX that I still own.

lindy,

Thanks for sharing that pic. That is a gorgeous super grade! I love those early G-super grade stocks without the ebony, as that is my preference.

lindy2,

My guess is that your CRF M70 rifle might have been made in 1992, and they started putting "Classic" on the barrels in 1993,
and announced that marketing name for the CRF M70 in 1994.
Like new cars, the 1994 models come out in summer of 1993?

The Pre-'64 M70 ended with a 1963 total of 581,471. That is according to the records at the Winchester site:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/...70-manufactured.html

Here is the same record shown above in a different format and an erroneous line for 1992, from the company website itself:

"This information below gives a fairly accurate picture of year of manufacture for Model 70s until recent years (1992). The information below was taken from rough documents that were typed up a number of years ago and do not yet exist digitally. To obtain date of manufacture on a Model 70 made after 1992 please contact the Winchester Customer Service Department at 800-333-3288. In the event of alteration or the serial number being expunged, the BATF needs to be advised. DO NOT ship the firearm as this is a federal offense."



So from that, they jumped ahead by 118,529 to serial number 700,000 to start the Post-'64 M70,
skipped from 581471 at the end of 1963 to 700000 at the start of 1964.
In 1964 they made 40,600 M70 rifles, ending at 740,599.
All I am going by is the numbers for 1935 through 1991.
That was the only obvious gap, or skipping up in serial number sequence.
But the factory records above show 1992 ending with the same serial number as 1991.
Typo!
Surely they did not mean to include 1992 at all!
The folks at http://www.midwestgunworks.com...model-70-information edited that 1992 line out of their table.

So who knows how they might have skipped around in each individual year, forward and backward, whatever they wanted to use of any unused numbers?

Hopefully no two rifles got duplicate serial numbers.
But that could have happened with G-numbers starting at G928909 in 1969 after serial number 928908 ended 1968.
1969 should gave started with G928909 and should have gone through G2037985 at the end of 1991.

So they started making the new CRF M70 with serial number G001 in 1992?
Then, when they got back up from G001 to G928908,
they had to jump forward by 1,109,078 to G2037986 so as not to duplicate the already used G-numbers?

No wonder they are keeping those serial number records on a need-to-know basis,
if it is indeed possible to call and see when your rifle was made:

800-333-3288

That idea makes it "interesting" to try to sequence the "Classic" to year made by serial number.
I might give it a try.

CEO to USRAC at New Haven, CT: "OK, for this year's production we are just going to skip ahead by over a million on those so-called serial numbers for the M70 Classic. The bean counters will be in charge of getting the exact number to the production folks."

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
Ray, I am seriously here.

That is so lame.

Hey is for friends.

Hey, dude, is for really good friends.

and Hey Bubba is for chosen brothers and some actual brothers -- Though I usually say Howdy, because Aggies

RIP

One thing you will notice on the guns made soon after G200000 is that the little screw on the cocking piece shroud is missing.

Also, Winchester starting making a few rifles in calibers that were not developed by them. My brother owns a Model 70 Featherweight Classic with a serial number just below G200000 in .280 Remington, which is a very scarce caliber for a Winchester factory gun. I have only seen one other, and it was sitting at the Cabela's in Rogers Minnesota a week or so ago when I was there last. I have yet to find a Classic under 200,000 in 7 x 57.

Matt

I don't know why, but I have actually had a couple of offers to "rent" that stock so that it could be used in a duplicator. I chose not to do so.

Here is the date code used by both Browning and Winchester (BACO) on the current M70 rifles:
look at the last two letters in that string of three letters after the 35, e.g., in "35AMN177xx",
M = 0 and N = 9, corresponding to 2009 year when the action got the serial number applied.
Here's the rest of the de-coder:
0 = M
1 = Z
2 = Y
3 = X
4 = W
5 = Z
6 = T
7 = R
8 = P
9 = N

I called BACO in Utah and was enlightened, at least about the current M70 serial numbers that code for the year made.

From this it appears that in 2013 rifles were being assembled in both SC and Portugal.
Or, some said "Made In U.S.A" on the barrel (parts at least) even if the final assembly was in Portugal?
I prefer to believe the former.

I find the records at BACO in Utah, for the New Haven, CT M70 Classic, to be suspect.

They told me that the "Model 70 Classic" rifles started production in 1990 and ended with serial number G16859 at the end of 1990!

Compare that gem of information to another jewel at their web site:



They also say that the M70 Classic Stainless .375 H&H,
that I recalled buying in summer of 1993
left the warehouse in the lower 48 on March 19, 1996.

Well they say that your memory is the second thing to go.
Or the "Circa 2005-2006 New Haven Syndrome" struck again!

Apparently the serial number records from New Haven were turned over to ATF when the plant closed.
Anyone picking up the pieces after that would have to deal with BATF or BATFE for records?
BATFE pulled another "fast and furious" on those serial number records?
No wonder something as simple as this gets so screwed up.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
RIP

One thing you will notice on the guns made soon after G200000 is that the little screw on the cocking piece shroud is missing.

Also, Winchester starting making a few rifles in calibers that were not developed by them. Also, My brother owns a Model 70 Featherweight Classic with a serial number just below G200000 in .280 Remington, which is a very scarce caliber for a Winchester factory gun. I have only seen one other, and it was sitting at the Cabela's in Rogers Minnesota a week or so ago when I was there last. I have yet to find a Classic under 200,000 in 7 x 57.

Matt

Winchester has always made the Model 70 in other company's chamberings. "The Rifleman's Rifle" by Roger Rule list about 13,200 special rifles made in oddball calibers like the 9mm and 7.65 Argentine.

Including:
.300 H&H Mag
.22 Hornet
.220 Swift
.257 Roberts
.375 H&H Mag
.250-3000 Savage
7mm
.35 Rem
.300 Savage (there were only 362 of these made)

I have 4 New Haven Controlled Feed Classics

300RUM(soon to be 404J), 375H&H, 416Rem, 458Win. All feed flat-nose solids flawlessly and shoot good enough for me to make 300+yd shots with any of them. Guess I just lucked out. The stocks are a bit short, but I am of the ape-armed club.

Andy B

my first, bought by me as an adult, was a fwt in 7x57 ...

RIP,

I'm glad you corrected the serial number of your Classic Black Shadow! You really had me scratching my head, when you said it was in the G3.5 million range!

FYI, Production grade Classic serialization runs from G15000 to something less than G400000 (the highest number I own in this range is G387XXX, IIRC). Then serials jump up to the seven digits, starting about G24XXXXX, running up to around G302XXXX at the end of production. There may be slightly higher numbers, but I don't recall seeing them. Numbers below G15000 were reserved for Custom Shop rifles, I have one that is G10XXX, and I have seen them much lower. I might add that not all Custom Shop rifles are below G15000, some are in the standard sequences. Any numbers outside this range are not Classics, but are PF or CRPF.


Thus throughout the production run of Classics, there could be as many as slightly over 1 million Classics produced, ASSUMING all numbers were used!

The CRF Super Grade was introduced in 1990, although it wasn't called a Classic, as well as Custom Shop rifles. In 1992, the Featherweight Classic was introduced, and it was called that. Then in 1994 a number of different models were introduced, and the name "Classic" became ubiquitous for the CRF action.

Also pleased to see that you got the FN70's serials figured out! It is really simple actually, but just glad I didn't have to write it all out. I don't have near the patience you have!

Frank

Are those in the pre-64 Model 70 or the Post 1990 Classic?

mudstud,

Yes, I was horrified when I realized I had double-stroked a digit in that G-3.5-millionish
serial number.
It was supposed to be a G-350-thousandish.
Glad you noticed the correction. "Sumbuddy who know" read one of my posts!

All that you are saying makes as much sense as possible considering New Haven's ways, I am sure.
There is iron in your words.

There is more than one way to skin a wildcat.
Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
Frank

Are those in the pre-64 Model 70 or the Post 1990 Classic?

Pre-64, Rule's book covers from 1936 to 1963

I was given a hardbound copy of the book about 15-20 years ago and read it but because I didn't own a Model 70 at the time I foolishly gave it away. The soft cover versions sells for about $100 now.

I've enjoyed the dozen or so Model 70s I've owned and my 1952 300 H&H is probably my favorite rifle. Still in unaltered state but for refinish (Browning coat had a texture of 120 grit sandpaper, wore all the finish off one side when slung)
My new Haven CRF 416 would pop several rounds out the top when cycled briskly. Took an aftermarket follower and spring plus bending of feed lips to correct. It now cycles flawlessly. It wasn't going with me without that fix. Took a Buff in Mozambique in 2013 and leaves for Zim in 12 days. It'll be backup to my 470 depending on conditions.

Floorplate says Super Express, serial G63,1xx, I called and was told 1994.
Larry

Thanks Larry --

the hits keep coming, with repeats

Ive had 4 that were not pre 64, they all had walnut and schnable forend, 2 were blue and two were SS. They were all good guns and all shot well...I don't recall what model they were or what year they were made...

I always felt if a Win. bolt action wasn't a pre 64, it didn't matter anyway..