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Physics are physics and If you run an extensive test using the the same test media and all the other equal bullet parameters and velocity you will get equal penetration.

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Originally posted by michael458:
OH yes, look at what I just happened to find!

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Originally posted by boom stick:
Doing a bit of thinking and number crunching about this.
I think you have to change the sectional density numbers to reflect the meplat diameter and not the groove diameter. I think the SD of the above bullet using the meplat diameter would be about .490 being about 60% meplat while the meplat SD of the 900 grain 600 BBW13 at 67% would be about .750
A test could be done duplicating the meplat SD of the 22 at the same velocity.

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

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Originally posted by boom stick:
The larger should penetrate deeper.
You are not taking things into consideration proportionally.
They are not equal.

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Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
It's pretty clear that the combination of higher SD, use of FN bullets with a meplat of 67-68%, heavier weight and higher velocity, will give optimum penetration in any media. The real issue is that its not always advantageous to have maximal penetration. In a stopping rifle you want enough penetration to get to the critical organs or break bones and then to dump all the energy within the animal. punching a hole through both sides isn't necessarily a good thing either. You basically need to use the right tool for the right job. We've learned a lot about this in the last few years and bullets have in fact come a long way for dangerous game.

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Originally posted by capoward:
Fury01,
If you relook at Michael's 8 criteria listing - number 8 is 'sectional density' which can also be viewed as 'bullet weight'. When criteria 1-7 are equal then criteria 8 will be the deciding factor meaning the heavier of the bullets should penetrate the greatest.

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Originally posted by 465H&H:

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Originally posted by capoward:
Fury01,
If you relook at Michael's 8 criteria listing - number 8 is 'sectional density' which can also be viewed as 'bullet weight'. When criteria 1-7 are equal then criteria 8 will be the deciding factor meaning the heavier of the bullets should penetrate the greatest.

I do believe that Michael's criteria are good on a general basis but like any criteria there are always exceptions. For instances, if you take a 500 grain .458 caliber bullet at 2,150 fps the criteria seem to hold true for the various nose shapes with the FN bullets generally penetrating further than RN bullets in soft tissue. Increase the bullet weight to 550 grains at 2,150 fps and the Woodleigh RN solid will out penetrate all of 500 grain FN bullet types by a wide margin.

465H&H

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Originally posted by capoward:
Hey H,

I do know that Corbin's little 6.5mm RN FMJ bullet still holds the record for straight-line penetration in Michael's double bullet box.

Perhaps your 550gr .458 Woodleigh RN FMJ bullet can accomplish greater straight-line penetration than 500gr .458 FN Solids that fully comport with Michael's criteria listing. I don't know 'cause I've not seen the controlled environment testing.

What I do know from controlled environment testing - with field testing verification either accomplished or underway - is that except for the 'rare exception' FN Solids composting with Michael's listing (let's call this ML for shorthand) will both provide greater straight-line penetration, and do so with boring consistency, than a similar weighted traditional construction RN FMJ bullet. And very often, the ML bullet will out penetration the traditional weight-caliber RN FMJ using a lighter weight - occasionally a substantially lighter weight - bullet.

Personally I have zero issue with the hunter who travels to Africa ans uses RN FMJ bullets on his elephant hunt. I'm not paying the bill nor do I have to suffer the consequences should the well placed bullet result in an escaping-wounded elephant rather than a DRT elephant. If I'm paying the bill, I'll spend the extra $1 and change for the highest quality proven design bullet that meets ML 'cause I want that variable taken completely out of the mix of the within field 'SH' possibilities.

To each there on...

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Originally posted by boom stick:
That 6.5 was an ogive to a blunt nose not a true round nose if I remember correctly. I think more testing on hybrid ogive to blunt noses would be interesting, sort of a cross between a conical flat and a round nose. Have two solid bullets of same weight, diameter and meplat and see what happens. I think some design testing was done but not quite as much obviously as other types.

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Walt,

You have obviously shot more elephant than I but I can say that my experience has been drastically different from yours concerning bullets exiting.

First ele, a bull - 4 shots total. 500NE 570gr Barnes Banded Solid FN. First shot, side brain from 12 yards. Exited. 2nd shot, frontal into the chest while it was laying down. Recovered. Two more fired into the top of the head for insurance. Both exited.

Second ele, a cow - 4 shots total. 500NE 570gr Barnes Banded Solid FN. First shot, frontal brain, recovered in chest cavity. Second shot, into shoulder as it sat on it's butt and rotated, exited after taking out the heart. Two more shots fired into the back (spine) between the shoulders for insurance. Both exited the chest between the front legs.

Third ele, a cow - 2 shots total. 500NE 570gr Barnes Banded Solid FN. First shot, side brain from 40 yards. Exited. Second shot behind the shoulder angled forward for insurance. Exited between the offside shoulder and neck.

Fourth ele, a cow - 4 shots total. 577NE 750gr CEB BBW#13. First shot, frontal brain (too high) from 20 yards. Recovered at the base of the tail. Penetrated the full length of the elephant. Second shot, attempted brain shot from behind as it turned (first shot missed the brain). Exited between the eyes. Third shot, another frontal after it was down, recovered about 10 inches in front of base of the tail. Again, full body penetration. Fourth shot, into the top of the head for insurance. Exited bottom of the skull.

14 total shots, both head (frontal and side brain) and body shots. All with Flat Nosed Bullets. 4 recovered and 10 exited. Of the 4 that were recovered, two penetrated nearly the entire length of the elephant and the other two were also frontal. No side shot bullets have been recovered to date from the limited number I've shot.

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Originally posted by michael458:
Gentlemen, the evidence is OverWhelming, to say the least, that no Round Nose FMJ or Solid bullet is stable in aqueous material, whether test medium, nor animal tissue, both being aqueous. It is inherently unstable by the nose design, it cannot be denied, anymore than one can deny that a Spire Point FMJ or Solid is not stable by the same token. Once Terminals begin, the front end, or the nose does the driving and steering immediately.

Only the UNEducated, or Walt will hang on to the design. Regardless of how much evidence can be had either from the field or from test work. Some refuse to believe the test work, some deny the validity of the test work, mostly because it does not fit their model of test standards, or their own beliefs. But yet year after year the test work proves itself in the field, which is the purpose of the work to begin with.

Now, also some refer to failures of the FN, and it is absolutely true, they have failed, but only the ones that are NOT designed properly. An improper designed flat nose is no better than a round nose, there are certain factors that have to come into play for the flat nose solid to perform in a proper manner, deep and straight line penetration. Many old designs, and even some new ones are not designed correctly. There is no one on the planet that has put more effort into this than some of us right here, and I doubt that many actually understand what they are doing and what needs to be done to get proper performance. Some bullet designers design the bullet to substandard performance levels so it will feed in CHEAP rifles, not a proper way to play this game.

These factors listed above in a previous post must be taken into account. The mention of failures of older designs of Flat Nose Solids, the designers of said bullets did not adhere to those factors, and thus failed and were prone to failure. The Round Nose design is not stable, it does not have a proper Nose Profile, has no flat Meplat, this is the top two on the list for stable, deep, straight line penetration, reliable penetration. Being inherently unstable means that sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, and you cannot count on them consistently. As Todd mentions, we see this year after year in reports RIGHT HERE, one just this past week.

I hear about all the great successes with the Woodleigh RN from some certain few on elephant heads. There is some truth to this as opposed to body shots, but only some! We can take a Round NOse solid of any design, put it into stacked layers of solid wood, or boards, and it will penetrate straight! There is no aqueous influence on the nose, and with the wood being more solid it does not allow the bullet to begin to turn. Elephant heads are harder as well, so I would guess this adds just enough stability that you can get a RN to work, sometimes! Size of the elephant head has a lot to do with it too. With a 458 caliber 500 gr Woodleigh RN FMJ it normally goes from 20-25 inches straight before it starts to veer off course. From correlated evidence collected by myself, and based on others experience as well, and this keeps mounting up every year and confirming this correlation. We see that in the field in animal tissue that we get on average from 30% to 35% deeper penetration with solids than in the test medium I use. Now, this would correlate to some 30-38 inches of penetration with a 500 Gr Woodleigh RN. On some of these small headed tuskless or cows, that is way more than enough to be able to hit the brain, most of the time, unless it goes unstable before then, and there in lies the problem, you can't count on it! It is not reliable by design, sometimes it just DON"T do it!

I have reports, from friends I know personally, of frontals on elephant with Woodleigh FMJ turning and going out the side! Going in the side, and leaving the front!

There are NO DOUBTS, a proper designed Flat Nose Solid that adheres to the Factors Listed above, will be more reliable, more successful, will penetrated deeper, will penetrate straighter and will be more consistent than any round nose fmj or solid ever devised. There is NO DENIAL on this, it is proven, it is fact.

Michael