I just finished reading Ganyana's article for the tenth time. Very good read by a man who should know. Basically, he is saying bring the largest caliber rifle you can shoot accurately. I find no issue with what he says other than the part about shooting from a benchrest being irrelevant to DG hunting. I would think any client who shows up that can shoot a DG rifle accurately from the bench would be the ideal client.
If you can sit there and shoot small groups, you should be good to go. I guarantee you, shooting a big rifle from the bench provides the absolute most felt recoil of any shooting position I have ever tried.

What did I miss here?

Rich
Buff Killer

the bench is missing in the field..

that's what's missing ..pun intended

quote:

Am I missing something...?

The ability to hold said rifle on target without the aid of a bench ... if you can't point it - recoil doesn't matter ...

Because shooting from your hind legs while a lion is after your a$$ is not related to sitting there and taking your time squeezing off for tiny groups on paper. Lot's of shooters can make small groups on paper but when there's no bench to lean on, a complete new dynamic of having to stand still, hold the rifle in your hands alone without a bench to lean on, etc. And most paper targets don't move like a game animal either. Big difference.

none of you have addressed my point, the most recoil you can experience is sitting at a bench. Many posters here have said that they take considerable time in developing a game load, because they are unable to sit at a bench and fire twenty to forty DG rifle rounds at a sitting.

Note: I did shoot my buffalo off of sticks, at 165 yards! I suggest that is due in part, to being a competitive benchrest shooter earlier in life, and the regular shooting of big bore rifles off of the bench the past thirty years.

I repeat, for those of you who may have missed it: the question is; does shooting off of a bench constitute help or a hindrance hunting DG?
The biggest bullshitters I have ever met, as a group, shoot piss-poor groups from the bench and then state that they are deadly shots offhand on moving game because that is their focus. If you can't shoot with precision from a bench, you are not likely to be even a passable game shot under less accurate shooting conditions and circumstances.

Rich
Buff & Bison Killer

quote:

none of you have addressed my point, the most recoil you can experience is sitting at a bench. Many posters here have said that they take considerable time in developing a game load, because they are unable to sit at a bench and fire twenty to forty DG rifle rounds at a sitting.

There is a lot more to shooting than recoil control. Being a competitive shooter is a great foundation for becoming a great game shot, but many people who are good off of a solid rest can't shoot worth a darn when rushed, unrested, pumped-up on adrenalin with a poor sight picture.

Shooting quickly off a less than perfect rest, with a less than perfect sight picture is the key to good field shooting.

But don't take my word for it....

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

none of you have addressed my point, the most recoil you can experience is sitting at a bench. Many posters here have said that they take considerable time in developing a game load, because they are unable to sit at a bench and fire twenty to forty DG rifle rounds at a sitting.

There is a lot more to shooting than recoil control. Being a competitive shooter is a great foundation for becoming a great game shot, but many people who are good off of a solid rest can't shoot worth a darn when rushed, unrested, pumped-up on adrenalin with a poor sight picture.

Shooting quickly off a less than perfect rest, with a less than perfect sight picture is the key to good field shooting.

But don't take my word for it....

I agree with this post by JBrown.

If the biggest bunch of bullshitters is the bunch that can't shoot off a bench but claim to be great shots on game, the second biggest bunch is the target shooters who can't hit the broadside of a barn in the field but think they can and tell you so.

JPK

Shooting prone, with your entire body on the ground behind the rifle, will generate a lot more felt recoil than shooting from a bench, IMHO.

The first time I shot a .458 WM that way, I thought I'd broken my collar bone! I'll take the bench anyday.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Thibeault:
Shooting prone, with your entire body on the ground behind the rifle, will generate a lot more felt recoil than shooting from a bench, IMHO.

The first time I shot a .458 WM that way, I thought I'd broken my collar bone! I'll take the bench anyday.

Not to mention it can be a good way to collect a scar if you lose your concentration...

For myself, I figure that I'm more accurate with multiple shots firing off a set of shooting sticks starting with full house loads from a .458Lott and up. I can work the action faster, gain sight picture faster and recover from recoil faster. But fully dressed I weigh 165lbs. From the bench the 458Win and down I can handle for a while fairly well and .375H&H and down no problem. I still need alot of practice with my .505 but I'll get there after I'm healed up from my accident and can shoot the big ones again. Thats pretty much what and how I prefer to shoot the big ones, although I have had some good sessions with the .505Gibbs off the bench- not too pleasent after a while. And to think I'm gonna get something bigger on that "PH" when it comes in. Rodney.

Rodney,

For accuracy shooting, ie, load development, sight in, etc, nothing beats a standing bench for the big bores. If you do a search on the Double Rifle forum, you wil find a good description of one that I use. Once you've tried one, you won't be interested in shooting the big bores of a sitting bench for accuracy work. A whole lot less recoil and hardly any loss of accuracy when comparded to a sitting bench.

Of course, once everyting is dailed in, there isn't any need for it, field positions, like using your sticks are better for recoil and better for actual game shooting practice. (Ain't no benches in the field!)

JPK

Shooting and practicing off sticks is far more important than the bench once the rifle is zeroed in and the scope holds set. When you have to start learning all over while standing in front of an impala or Buffalo life can become very interesting.
Frank

Idaho

Each case is different and depending on what one does. You are very correct, no more recoil from any position with a big bore than from a sitting bench. I see someone mentioned prone, I don't go prone with the big bores, good way to knock your damn eyes out. And one would rarely shoot prone in the field with a big bore.

In my case I do a great deal of bench work, load development being a huge part of it. Test work, sighting in and so forth. Most of the time I have 1 maybe two sessions a week, average around 150 rounds a week of big bore. I have been a little lazy of late however. Having completed most of the load development for the B&M Series it leaves me a little short lately. If getting ready for a hunt, or mission you might say. I get off the bench.

I am lucky here, I have a 50 yd indoor range, mine, to do all the test work in. Getting ready for a hunt depending on what it is, I also have out to 150 yd range outside. This is right outside my door at home. I will shoot standing out to 25 yds-sitting at 50-100 depending on the mission, sometimes using sticks or what have you. Sometimes using trees to lean against, or anything I can find or need to do. I was getting ready for a bear hunt (should have been on as I write this, but got canceled) it was going to be close, so I was doing my work at 10 yds standing.

There is room for both, bench is needed for load development, test work, and of course sighting in. Field positions once that is complete, and tailor the field positions to the mission at hand, at least at first, then plan on other options afterwards.

Michael

Both in the military and while hunting, I've seen stuff that comes from "non-realistic" practice.

Military experience was what others have probably seen... guys expending a magazine and then look at the rifle in awe before they realize that they have to change mags... a four or five second delay that can get you or your buddy killed.

The most common for those who concentrate mainly at the bench is working the bolt gingerly and "hand-extracting" spent brass and putting it in a pocket. You can look at the Outdoor Channel videos on any Saturday morning and see some hunter doing so while his guide or PH trades thumbs. No so good when a buffalo is still on its feet or an elephant has just taken a shot that didn't get the brain... or even if a whitetail is humped up and making it to the tree line.

I've seen recoil loosen a DG rifle's floor plate and dump rounds, a rifle fail to feed when the bolt was racked really hard (for the first time, evidently), a guy forget that he had an automatic safety... and was told this weekend in Dallas about a Blaser user who had "uncocked" his rifle for the first time (in the field) and had a few second delay figuring out what happened while a wounded buffalo stumbled around at 30 yards.

Nothing can take the place of realistic practice. I took my daughter (before her first safari this year) to my deer lease. I had put targets in the woods (some bullseyes, some animal figures) and we practiced stalking up to them, using shooting sticks or finding a handy tree and firing multiple times. She is an accomplised deer hunter but had done most from stands.

Was it worth the trouble? Well, she had her heart set on a zebra stallion. Pierre got her on a good one and they set up on the sticks at 70 yards or so. I was back in the safari car and didn't see what happened (couldn't see the hunters, but had the zebra in the binocs), but I sure did hear two shots (and see the impact thereof) in 3 seconds or so (when the Zebra was spined and trying to get up). Not a buffalo coming toward her, of course, but lots of pressure on my little girl and she calmly worked the bolt and put a second round in the animal (without awaiting instruction to do so) in quick time. My kind of lady!

She wants to go for buffalo next. We'll shoot from the bench some, but we'll use her 9.3x62 on simulated stalks, too. Fun time for a daddy and daughter.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
the bench is missing in the field..

that's what's missing ..pun intended

Allow me to restate

With no bench, and associate apparatus, one that can drive a bench gun into the 1's is going to have extreme difficuly in picking that 10# rig up and using thier body, arms, and any available rest to make a good shot.

In fact, if you don't TRAIN for field positions, it doesn't matter how good your benchrest skills are, as field shooting has little relationship to bench shooting..

a lesson I had to learn the hardway

Bigbores and hunting, mean sighting the gun in on the bench, heck even with a lead sled, and then PICKING IT UP...

However, I have YET to see 10 shooters that aren't with me ever shoot standing at local ranges, EXCEPT blackpowder shooters

hench, what is missing is the bench

After shooting off the bench for a while,I automatically developed a technique that is for the most part, not painfull.The time I feel the most pain is when I am shooting the rifle at 100 or two hundred yards,with open sights requiring a very good aim and hold.This is because when doing so,the arm holding the forearm stock cannot be fully extended as it is when shooting at closer distances.As a result,I get a weaker hold on the rifle and it kicks you hard.Speaking of kicking,I've noticed,while cleaning both my Ruger and CZ,that the bore is tighter in the CZ.This may be why it kicks like crazy.

Is it not possible for a person to shoot his big rifle well at game while standing, but not so well off the bench cause the recoil bothers him more?...do those consequently poor bench groups automatically mean he aint no good in the field?
I sold my opensighted .458win simply cause I found it too uncomfortable from the bench.

Shooting from the bench will pound your shoulder, that's for sure. But well-rounded practice is what's needed.

Practice is about ensuring that your rifle and scope, etc., WORK as intended. It's also about building and maintaining confidence. So you need to do a lot of it and not just and only from the bench.

Most people, and I am one of them, will shoot from the bench first, to build confidence that the rifle is zeroed and will shoot a good group.

Then I fire a lot of rounds off the sticks, since that's how many, if not most, shots will be taken in the field.

Then I shoot standing (i.e., off hand) and sitting since you will take some shots from these positions and need to be able to do it.

I think what Ganyana meant is that bench shooting ALONE cannot make a man into a good field shot, and I do agree with that.

I usually prefer the kneeling position to sitting because I can take it up more quickly. Your milage may vary. I never shoot off the bench after the rifle is zeroed. If you ever end up in the very unpleasant position of a DG animal charging you, you'd better be able to shoot offhand standing and work the action smoothly. I practice offhand shooting from 20 yards to a hundred. If I weren't confident that I could place repeated shots inside a two inch circle at 25 yards after receiving a huge shot of adrenaline, I would never take the field. But that's just me.

This may sound a bit strange, but if you want to learn to shoot offhand and have some fun doing it.
Grab a 22 and go to a stock tank and shoot turtles.
As a kid I spent countless hours plinking at turtles and bricks of 22 shells. Consistantly trying to hit a turtle head the size of a nickle at 30-40 yards is challenging; especially off hand. This teaches squeezing the trigger and steading the rifle.
This really made me a better shot!
It is fun, much more fun than shooting targets and when you feel good about it try it with you big guns and make a big splash!
I still enjoy it!

EZ

What is being missed here in this discussion is that your all right.
But Idaho sharpshooter made a damn valid point, but it takes someone who appreciates the focus and discipline, and not to mention BALLS it takes to sit behind a whacker and not blink in the moment of truth.
He is completely valid in his what he says, and you all got to one upping each other showing your hairy ones until you forgot that he was right.
It is a mental thing that you have to master , and it does you a ton of good if you can.
Shooting from a bench,ESPECIALLY with a big caliber, a caliber that is goingto whack you hard enough you have to learn how to stand and take a punch will do you a great deal of good.
Kind of the look em in the eye and keep grinning through the blood kind of deal, which is an attitude and a focus that carries a lot of weight in the field.
It is tough and it is calm and it is focused, and vey frikken deadly.

Now with all that bullshit said is that all that is needed? shit no and you all know that.
But can it help immensely if we don't overload our asses because we all have a physical limit of how hard a punch we can stand and grin through? Of course it can when combined with common sense practical positions like reared up on your hind legs shooting over sticks.

but what if you have to kneel down on one knee with your elbow resting on an anthill, and knowing that the way you are leaning forward hard into that rifle it is going whack you so hard your teeth are going to slap together,, can you do it?, can you do it and not think about it?
Doubt it, not unless you have developed some of the mental toughness, focus and discipline that ISS was talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
none of you have addressed my point, the most recoil you can experience is sitting at a bench. Many posters here have said that they take considerable time in developing a game load, because they are unable to sit at a bench and fire twenty to forty DG rifle rounds at a sitting.

Note: I did shoot my buffalo off of sticks, at 165 yards! I suggest that is due in part, to being a competitive benchrest shooter earlier in life, and the regular shooting of big bore rifles off of the bench the past thirty years.

I repeat, for those of you who may have missed it: the question is; does shooting off of a bench constitute help or a hindrance hunting DG?
The biggest bullshitters I have ever met, as a group, shoot piss-poor groups from the bench and then state that they are deadly shots offhand on moving game because that is their focus. If you can't shoot with precision from a bench, you are not likely to be even a passable game shot under less accurate shooting conditions and circumstances.

Rich
Buff & Bison Killer

Offcourse it helps.It is also the elementary stage in shooting.If someone does not master this stage he is far from being able to consistantly shoot well standing.

I agree with Bucko and Sharpshooter: BOTH are NEEDED! And, I think we all know that...

Shooting from the bench is both good and bad. I spend a lot of time shooting off hand at little steel chickens pigs, turkeys and rams with 22 lr. We have had swat snipers cone out to try their hand. They were terrible. From prone or a rest they were ok but could not shoot off hand. This is at the mild recoil of the 22 .The bench is a tool to develop loads and range cards. It helps you get a sight setting. Most shooters find that their off hand zero and their bench zero may be 1 to 2 moa different once they learn to shoot offhand. You have to practice as you hunt. I do not like sticks,they slow me down and I get a lot of flyer's off of them. I have not spent enough time with them.

Shooting good groups with a heavy gun off the bench does not mean you don't flinch or that you won;t flinch offhand or from sticks.
Soaking up recoil just for the sake of doing so is not good. If you are training to be a fighter you have to learn to take a Punch,To win a fight you have to learn to deliver one also.

I don't think you can master the bench with out learning to shoot well off hand or from the sticks with a big bore. I can shoot 40 rounds at 416 mag recoil, and 20 with the 470 double from the bench with out problems. I am talking 1/2 moa performace with the 416 out to 300 yards, no lead sled or big bags just normal benchrest set up.. Shooting a 100 or so offhand rounds in pratice helped me build up to that. Rich's statement is correct only if said shooter can perform well from offhand or off of sticks also.

JD

I think nearly all of you are missing Idaho's point. What a competative benchrest shooter REALLY learns is the single and I will repeat single most important thing in accurate shooting FROM ANY POSITION and that is TRIGGER CONTROL! Guys who shoot little groups with 6mmPPC's shoot little groups with .458's off the bench. Yes it hurts but They simply deal with it. There is nothing different about a big bore. Allign the sights, breath control, TRIGGER CONTROL and RELAX! The bullet goes where you want it to every time! News Flash you were not born with good trigger control! Particularily Good Trigger control when you know your going to get wacked by a big bore. Flinch anyone?If you can do it well from a bench you will do it well from a standing position with or without sticks.. RECOIL MANAGEMENT IS A LEARNED SKILL not something that makes or breaks a good shot! The bullet has left the barrel by the time your brain says ouch! Benchrest shooters shoot alot and you have heard me talk about trigger time as a damn good indication of just how good a shot someone is. When you miss, its usually really because you pulled the trigger improperly or you r sight picture was screwed. The more a person practices the better they shoot period. I've trained a fair number of riflemen and invariably those who master the trigger shoot well if they have reasonable upper body strength and concentrate on their sight picture. Personally, I like to shoot my big bores offhand at 25, 50 and 100yrds, and practice with mediums and .30's out to 400 yrds. I shoot paper plates from real world shooting positions. The range at which I can consistently keep all my shots from all positions on a plate is the maximum distance I will shoot at game. With some guns thats 25-50yrds ( I like shooting big stuff up close and personal) and with others its 200-300 yrds. Minute of paper plate has filled my trophy room to a rediculous level. I am not a great shot but I am more than adequate. One thing for sure though, I've got and get lots of trigger time. Finally, like and unlike benchrest shooting( changing conditions) you need to learn to shoot fast at game. You dont need a perfect sight picture, just a good enough sight picture, then shoot em again as fast as you can! You have to practice working the bolt without taking the gun from your shoulder or losing sight of the animal. Dont stand there and admire your shot like a golfer, wack em again and again till they are down and out!-Rob

[URL= ]PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT[/URL]

Shootawy brings up a good point. Dry firing! Put up a paper plate at 25 yrds outside or inside if you have the room. Practice dry firing the gun from standing, kneeling, holding the gun off a wall( as if it was a tree or bush). Watch where your sights end up after you have pressed the trigger. Were they on the plate or not? When you can press the trigger and the sights dont move, go shoot at the same distance with live ammo ( full power is best). Can you do the same thing? Then increase the distance to 50, then 75 the 100 yrds. Do that three times a week and you will impress Ganyana! maybe even make some MONEY off him in a little safari shooting contest!-Rob

Very true, Rob.

A case in point is a high school kid on the junior rifle team at my gun club.

I was at the range getting ready for my last safari. I had my .375, my .458 and my .500 with me. The kid was shooting an Anschutz .22 target rifle a few spots down from me.

He was very interested in my rifles and African hunting. We talked for awhile. He asked if I would let him shoot my .458 Lott. I wasn't sure whether that would be such a good idea.

But after a bit of coaching from me on how shooting a big bore was different than shooting a target rifle and how to manage the recoil, I let him fire two rounds off the shooting sticks at 50 yards.

They were both in the black, and nearly in the same hole! Everything the kid knew about breath and trigger control translated perfectly! And the recoil did not seem to bother him.

Mrlexma- Exactly my point! BTW if you simply told him to just hold a little tighter and roll with the recoil, he would still shoot tiny groups with your .458 lott or a Nyati or a .600Ok!The only difference in shooting game is shooting fast and being willing to sacrifice a little accuracy for speed.Rob

Good discussion.

In light of all this, I confess amazement that so many sport hunters are able to execute a frontal brain shot on elephant, whether the elephant, (or the hunter), is standing, sitting or charging!


It ain't easy!

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shootawy brings up a good point.

Just wanted to make sure I read that correctly.

Being able to walk on ice without falling-also known as BALANCE,is also very important(when you REALLY have two feet planted on the ground).Also,to have arms and shoulders that are strong enough to carry a rifle all day and then be able to steady a rifle,in mid air,as if it were magically suspended from a chain.

As usual...this thread turned into a pissing contest and EVERYONE missed the point...

1. To have an accurate rifle you have to test it...either on a bench, on your belly or with somekind of support...this not only tests the accuracy of the rifle but also the ammo AND shooter. What kind of idiot thinking goes into some of this macho, hairylegged "INAMAN" krap I'll never know...

2. How many of you grab your "sticks" when something mean is looking to stick you...If you can't shoot offhand into a spot small enough to stop a charge of ANYTHING...rabbit or whatever...you are pissing in the wind...and NO ONE knows if or when they will loose their nerve or have any to begin with until it happens...

3. All the bullsh** about benchresters vs offhanders vs stick users is just than...TOTAL BS... because if any one in any of those groups can't "stand and deliver" the rest is another pile of elephand sh**.

Seems like carrying around a pair of sticks nowdays is de rigueur and somehow confers upon the "stickee" some kind of "Great White Hunter" image. I'll bet Bell and the rest of the REAL "Great White Hunters" are spinning in their graves seeing or hearing some of the garbage going on around them in todays "canned hunting" safaries.

I see anyone walking up with sticks or a bipod on his shooter and going after something that could eat ME and I walk away...I'm very particular about who I hunt with...bipods and sticks might be great for shooting squirrels a a mile or taking plains game, but have no place anywhere around dangerous game...and if you can't place a quick shot into the kill area off hand you don't have a place around me...and that includes the PH. I don't care how much, how little or HOW you practice or develop your loads or the accuracy of your rifle and ammo...just how FAST and WELL you can shoot when we're in the sh**...

RGB and MrLexma make my point in spades!! Shooting off the bench is the only way I know of to perfect the sight picture and trigger control necessary for any position accurate shooting. My 6PPC would shoot in the .050" range when I had decent conditions and did my part. The target graded every shot I fired Pass/Fail! When you have the mechanics down, then it is time to go to other position shooting. Ganyana states as much when he says to take the biggest bore rifle you can shoot accurately. I have shot all of my big bores from the bench enough to know their accuracy limits. If the groups are much bigger, I know I need work, not load work either.
You guys know my weakness for big bore rifles, anyone remember the shot of me with the 550 Gibbs at Houston? A lot of you teased me a bit about the rifle trying to torque out of my hands in recoil. One person, I forget who, made my point when he posted; "look at the photo. Even in recoil Rich's head is looking downrange at the target.". Control is everything, even over speed. What's the IPSC saying: "you can't miss fast to win!"? Accuracy, Power, and Speed; you need all three, and that starts at the bench.

See some of you in Reno. Yes, orange Boise State Hoodie and tan Cowboy hat.

regards,

Rich
Buff Killer

Did I mention cardio-vascular training? Seriously,shooting offhand,accurately is not a joke.

quote:

The most common for those who concentrate mainly at the bench is working the bolt gingerly and "hand-extracting" spent brass and putting it in a pocket.

One of the issues that decided me against recently buying a 240 H & H. That at $6.00 atime (equivalent) for a cartridge case I would stop working the bolt quickly and smartly. Being more concerned about where that expensive fired case had gone rather than the need or not for a second shot.

If you want to develop better trigger control, shoot a 22lr. Generally light rifles, so more difficult to shoot well from off ahnd and other field positions.

A 22 will teach better trigger control for less time and $'s than any other option.

But even given trigger control, it takes a heck of a lot more to shoot field positions well than off a bench. Done right, with bags, a bench really only test the rifle, scope or the loads, because the rifle doesn't move when properly set on bags. Only a FU will make the rifle move as the trigger is squezed, pressed, (fill in your choice of description). That is no way to learn to shoot field positions.

JPK

I agree with Idaho on this one.

Bench rest shooting makes one a better offhand shooter, assuming you do practice offhand shooting too.

I always start off my rifle shooting from the bench. Both to warm up, and see how the rifle is shooting.

After that, I start shooting offhand, kneeling, prone, etc.

No question in my mind that bench rest shooting let's you perfect both trigger skills and target acquistion.

Same with pistol: warm up with a 22, then shoot the 45.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
If you want to develop better trigger control, shoot a 22lr. Generally light rifles, so more difficult to shoot well from off ahnd and other field positions.

A 22 will teach better trigger control for less time and $'s than any other option.

What he said.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Speaking of kicking,I've noticed,while cleaning both my Ruger and CZ,that the bore is tighter in the CZ.This may be why it kicks like crazy.

It never ends, does it?