getting kicked in the head by a mule doesn't do a damn thing for shooting off hand, no matter how carefully you focus on concentrating on pulled his tail and taking it like a man.

you should get OFF the bench the instant you have done your "lab" and "prep" work.. that is, sighted in and load dev.

there is no redeeming value in getting your a$$ kicked, repeatedly, if you don't learn your goal...

SHOOTING WELL OFF HAND...

requires a simple step

PICK UP THE GUN


Doesn't matter if you pick up a 22 or a 700 DA, PICK UP THE GUN

Want to shoot better off hand? get the gun off the bench...

If it kicks you too much, reduce your loads and train up and up and up...

off the bench...

dang, why is this hard to understand? smashing your hands with a sledgehammer won't make you a better brick layer

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Speaking of kicking,I've noticed,while cleaning both my Ruger and CZ,that the bore is tighter in the CZ.This may be why it kicks like crazy.

It never ends, does it?

Jason,
He's a babling idiot, that revises and deletes his previous post. Single scope ring on a 458, shot out guns that suddenly shoot well again.. uncleaned bores break stocks, big bores have higher pressure, due to big cases, smashing bullets with a mallet, and wearing a HELMET are all classic shooo-that-away quotes

and then he goes back and deletes them...

an AWESOME quote is that 458s shoot out the bore in under 100 rounds, but his 308 will last forever.. with NO CONCEPT of bore ratios and how much more underbore a 458 is that a 308

shesh... he just keeps yapping like a chihuahua on crack

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Speaking of kicking,I've noticed,while cleaning both my Ruger and CZ,that the bore is tighter in the CZ.This may be why it kicks like crazy.

It never ends, does it?

Jason,
He's a babling idiot, that revises and deletes his previous post. Single scope ring on a 458, shot out guns that suddenly shoot well again.. uncleaned bores break stocks, big bores have higher pressure, due to big cases, smashing bullets with a mallet, and wearing a HELMET are all classic shooo-that-away quotes

and then he goes back and deletes them...

an AWESOME quote is that 458s shoot out the bore in under 100 rounds, but his 308 will last forever.. with NO CONCEPT of bore ratios and how much more underbore a 458 is that a 308

shesh... he just keeps yapping like a chihuahua on crack

He's got your number Jeff ....

I know folks that can shoot tiny groups on paper, but make them stand up and shoot at a moving object and they're screwed. I can do both. But after my rifle is sighted in, I never shoot at paper again unless I change the scope etc. I do however shoot once or twice a week, about 200 rounds per trip at distances from 20 yards to about 500 yards. Trigger control and breathing while hunting is different then off a bench. Handling recoil is: knowing it's gunna beat the hell out of you; but simply not giving a crap! We got the point; but if you can shoot well standing, you can probably shoot well enough on the bench. Not neccesarily the other way around. Ganyana's point was simply that 'the ability to make those tiny groups from a bench, don't mean crap when a Lions charging you. You need to be able to shoot it while standing accuratly enough to make a killing shot. And to do that, you need to practice on your two hind legs. I just read it again, and that was all he was saying.

quote:

Originally posted by DWright I just read it again, and that was all he was saying.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Shootawy brings up a good point.

Just wanted to make sure I read that correctly.

..

,,

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
getting kicked in the head by a mule doesn't do a damn thing for shooting off hand, no matter how carefully you focus on concentrating on pulled his tail and taking it like a man.

.

SHOOTING WELL OFF HAND...

requires a simple step

PICK UP THE GUN


Doesn't matter if you pick up a 22 or a 700 DA, PICK UP THE GUN

Want to shoot better off hand? get the gun off the bench

dang, why is this hard to understand? smashing your hands with a sledgehammer won't make you a better brick layer

.....

Well said ..... I never shot the 416 in my avatar from the bench for groups and yet I,ve made a lot of 1 shot kills with that rifle .. Most off hand or kneeling ...........Shot hundreds of rounds thru it .......

I don,t think Rich is wrong at all,, But if Ganyana said it,, no doubt it has alot of merit ....I have had problems before I got so I could hit pretty well . And I have seen alot of guys and girls who hadn,t learned how to stand up and hit something , miss alot of opportunities because they couldn,t shoot off hand ...

.. I wouldn,t try to hit a fox @ 200 yards off hand if I could get a rest ,and the sturdier the better , but sometimes they arn,t available ....
I can see alot of use for shooting sticks for some situations .... But being able to stand up and just aim and shoot accuratly is the single most important ability of a rifleman ......

What I would like to have is some small moving dot in front of some backgroud,so I can practice dry firing on something that is moving.This will strenghten your hold and help you FOLLOW and pull the trigger.

When I was a kid, we used to take an old truck tire; attach a piece of plywood in the center of it, and one of us would roll it down a hill from one side, and the other would take shots at it as it went from left to right or vise versa.
Hmm, maybe it would be easier to just bring a shooting bench with you, and quickly set it up when you were ready to shoot a game animal. That way you could be all comfy and even have a holder for your coffee cup. An umbrella to keep the hot sun off your face would be nice to. A little batterie operated fan to keep you from sweating. Ya, I like it.

All those great names from Africa's hunting past, were they benchrest champions too?

And really, when you have jumbo or buff in your sights and squeeze the trigger, do you feel the recoil? I've never been in that situation but use a 10ga magnum pushing 2 1\4 ounces of lead shot at a wild turkey's head. I never feel the recoil which is calculated to be that of a 458 Win mag 500gr bullet. And that's not freehand or off sticks but sitting at the base of a tree with my back against the trunk.

those legendary offhand shooters "lost" a lot of game in their day. Read Roosevelt's book on Africa, they lost as many head of game as they took cleanly. I read Selous book, note all the head of game he wounded and did not recover.

NOTE: JUST TO THOSE IN OPPOSITION TO WHAT I SAID:
1. in Africa they usually carry a set of shooting sticks for you to rest the rifle on; and have plenty of time for you to do so.

2, please list all the African Dangerous Game you have taken cleanly. One shot to anchor them, and the distance. No keyboard killers here.
must be offhand, no cheating with a rest (sticks).

I am pleased with the discussion here, even the opinions by those of you who have never hunted Africa or shot in a Bench Rest match.

Rich
Already saving to go back!

Are there many people who shoot well offhand but poorly from a steady rest?

I thought, from reading ISS's original post as well as those of RGB and mrlexma, that was the point. Learn some of the good points (such as trigger control, breathing, etc.) when those points can be the focus then apply them to other aspects once mastered. I find that approach can be successfully applied whether you are a roofer running a line of shingles, a doctor repairing an AAA or race car driver on a road course.

I don't know of a single person who mastered heel-toe, nailing an apex and trail-braking in the same session. Of course mastering each or all of these does not make you a good driver - as has been said by everyone - the techniques have to be applied regularly to real-world circumstances. But its silly to think that techniques learned at the (test track) bench aren't useful in (racing) hunting.

I never shot a benchrest match, never interested me. I learned my trigger control as an adult shooting NRA High Power rifle matches. Something to be said for shooting at a 2" X ring offhand at 200 yards or shooting prone between pulse beats with a 24 power scope on the thousand yard line.
Once I completed load development for Africa I only fired two shots from the bench each practice session. One was to confirm my iron sight zero, the other to confirm my scope zero. Everything else was offhand or from sticks, including rapid fire and slow fire drills.
I anchored both of my buffalo with one shot each. The best compliment I received was when my PH said he could really tell the people who practice shooting. Both shots were from the sticks, no excuses or apologies for using them.

Guys-As to shootaway you know what they say! Even a blind squirrel can stumble over a nut once in a while.
Clean 1 shot kills on DG -offhand( I dont need sticks at 50yrds)
4/6 Buff- distance < 40yrds-other two, double taps
1 leopard- 30 yrds
1 Hippo( headshot)-50yrds
1 Lion heartshot-45yrds

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
2, please list all the African Dangerous Game you have taken cleanly. One shot to anchor them, and the distance. No keyboard killers here.
must be offhand, no cheating with a rest (sticks).

whatever.. this has now turned to squabbling.. you did use sticks at 165 yards, right, which means you can't comment on your own thread

I was at the range again today inspite of the really cold weather.I brought both my Ruger Lott and my 458 CZ win mag and decided to SHOOTAWAY! I always learn something with every session.Sometimes I learn that I was wrong the week before! I learned that the FIRST shots fired during a range session,are the most difficult.They are the least accurate and they kick the most.It seems that I was wrong when I said the CZ kicks more than the Ruger.Once you get warmed up and conditioned to the shooting,you fight the rifle less and become more in tune to the process.I shot all my rounds in the 1 foot circle,offhand at 100,with open sights, even though the Ruger is shooting a foot too low with the 200yd leaf on,off the bench at 100 yds.I had the chance to test both triggers side by side.The Timmney and the Ruger triggers are two different ones.The Timney behaves more like a target trigger.It goes off or breaks when it's suppose to(most of the time).The Ruger trigger is more consistant but is not ready when you are(too stiff).Both rifles were accurate off the bench with the bullets I used(A-Frames and Woodleigh pointed softs).Fired close to 40 rds in all(all max).I must say,I had fun.If ever anyone is in Montreal on the days my shooting club is open,they are invited to shoot with me(after or way before the hunting season).Lift and coffee(Kenya) on me!

It gets fun here, when hunting season slows down.

Nothing to kill so we turn on ourselves.

Hell Lets put shooting benches at water holes ,with 50 cal's with lazer sights and aim point. We can fight over 1 or 4 moa dots.

JD

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:


All those great names from Africa's hunting past, were they benchrest champions too?

And really, when you have jumbo or buff in your sights and squeeze the trigger, do you feel the recoil? I've never been in that situation but use a 10ga magnum pushing 2 1\4 ounces of lead shot at a wild turkey's head. I never feel the recoil which is calculated to be that of a 458 Win mag 500gr bullet. And that's not freehand or off sticks but sitting at the base of a tree with my back against the trunk.

The answer is: NO, YOU DON'T FEEL (much) RECOIL when you are shooting a buff or an elephant! (Or any game, in my experience.) I feel only enough to let me know the rifle has fired. Interestingly, the rifle's report is also insignificant, on order as the same as it is at the range with both plugs and muffs.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
But its silly to think that techniques learned at the (test track) bench aren't useful in (racing) hunting.

No sane man would argue this point. But the question is whether the bench rest "test track" is a test track for the shooter or for the rifle. Done properly, it is a test for the rifle (and scope, ammo, etc) and not the shooter because the rifle is fullly supported off of bags and shouldn't move.

A bench rest is more akin to a dynometer for the race car or engine.

The test rack for the hunter is shooting the rifle at targets or rocks, stumps, etc from real world field positions at various (preferably unknown) ranges.

JPK

quote:

NOTE: JUST TO THOSE IN OPPOSITION TO WHAT I SAID:
1. in Africa they usually carry a set of shooting sticks for you to rest the rifle on; and have plenty of time for you to do so.

2, please list all the African Dangerous Game you have taken cleanly. One shot to anchor them, and the distance. No keyboard killers here.
must be offhand, no cheating with a rest (sticks).

I am pleased with the discussion here, even the opinions by those of you who have never hunted Africa or shot in a Bench Rest match.

Rich
Already saving to go back!

1. There is not "plenty of time" to use sticks all of the time or even most of the time. More game is lost to delay than any other cause; if you doubt me just ask a PH. This is especially true when elephant or buff are hunted close. Most especially elephants close.

2. IMO, "one shot to anchor them" is the sign of a slow shooter or one who has made the mistake of admiring his shot. And I use a double rifle for DG game and other incidental game, so a second shot is possible even if the animal is falling from the first. Bolt or double I often shoot a second shot when the buff or elephant is falling from the first, down, just standing and bleeding out or running, since you never really know the creature is dead or going down for good until you're skinning it! And getting a second shot off with any rifle is quicker without sticks too.

I won't shoot DG off sticks, but if the opportunity is there and there is time, I'll use them when needed for longer range shots at other game.

But taken in the spirit intended, which I interpret to mean, "would have died quickly with the first shot":

With a double rifle with open sights:
two cape buff - 22 and 50yds; about ten elephants 10-35yds; one kilipspringer - 80yds; one zebra - 80yds;

With a 375H&H bolt with a scope:
one other zebra, prone - 235yds; three bushbuck 125yds, 145yds, both prone, and 75yds, using a tree for support; several impala, one or two each prone, sitting and offhand, probably one or two with a "non-sticks" rest of some kind in there too - varoius ranges; one grysbok - 15yds; one hyhena, using a tree for support - 55yds; one eland, prone, - 70yds;

This represent a fair proportion of the African game I have shot. Probably about 30-40%. The rest were shot off sticks (most other by far) or were shots not off sticks that required a second shot (or more) to kill the animal cleanly (only elephants and one bushbuck in this catagory.)

JPK

Another thread gone to the "think my way or you are stupid"! Sharpshooter has shot things farther away than you can see with the naked eye/ Shot bench rest matches that are determined and measured in thousands of an inch/ dreamed up and developed wildcats that the normal man could never master / cast bullets that are second to none and has tried to point out that bench shooting is just another shooting discipline that can and does make you a better shooter.
Anything in relation to shooting usually and does make you better. Even shooting off the bench. Get over it.

Since this has turned into an opinion forum on how to practice and shoot more accurately, mine is that while I understand ISS's point, I tend to agree with the practice from as wide a variety of possible hunting positions as you can, rather than a lot bench shooting. Having said that, my only "big bore" is a 375 H&H that is on the heavy side, fits well, and doesn't seem to me to have a lot of recoil.

One general contribution to better shooting I can add from experience, is as you age, be very aware of how much declining visual acuity can impact your ability. Having recently gone through lens replacement in both eyes, I was absolutely amazed at how much my vision had been diminished by cataracts, it was very obvious when the 1st eye had been "done" but the second was still impaired, but I truly did not realize it before. Vision that gets you by in normal day to day activity, may not serve you adequately for truly good shooting. So pay attention to you eyesight and take care of problems, large or small, quickly.

I contend that "the more you shoot, the more you can shoot comfortably". I don't care whether it is from the bench, off hand, or upside down, go shoot. I shoot 3000 plus rounds each year from my private benchs. A month before hunting season I will start shooting off hand, from sticks, and maybe even with my pants down, because I had to kill an Elk that way one year. Just the act of procuring the target through the scope ( I don't do open sights because I can't focus on rear and front sights at the same time anymore) will train you to shoot instinctively, if you do it enough. ----- I shoot from .243 up to 50 BMG, and everything in between for me and many buddies that will not take the time to shoot properly. The bigger chamberings I shoot extensively including .338 Lapua, .340 Wby, .358 STA, .416 Rem and Rigby, all get shot regularly. The BMG only on special occasions as it belongs to a nephew. The bench shooting in my opinion is extremely important in conjunction with the chronograph, once again just the act of pulling the trigger and procuring the target repeatedly is invaluable to a hunter of game. I found out a long time ago, if I don't shoot from the bench extensively, I will not shoot offhand enough just prior to a hunting trip to get that instinctive trigger pull I need. A few shots prior to the season is not enough for me. I will not tell you gentlemen how do train yourself, but this is how I do it. I Elk and Deer hunt yearly with occasional trips to Alaska, Canada and one trip to the Selous, with more to come hopefully. Good shooting.

~Try Metallic Silhoutte shooting...with both .22RF and high power
~Predator calling for real life shooting excitement...load your big bore down and use cast if you like...

Guess everyone will be different in their own training and practice techniques. For me as a hunter I use the bench to develope consistancy in handloads and to learn the bullets path over several distances to learn how it shoots and where {over distance}. I am not a competition shooter but a plinker and a hunter so benchrest competition is of little interest to me. For me once a load is chosen and the rifle is verified at the bench then I like to shoot freehand and with minimal support as in hunting situations. I don't need anymore practice directed specifically at trigger pull as I always practice the discipline during any shooting session. I understand IdahoSharpshooters ideas and appreciate them and his work and experience in this field, but again I'm not a competative shooter but a hunter, plinker and collector. Think I'll do some shooting this afternoon as I will be shut down in this area for a while do to back surgery. Good shooting ya'll. Rodney.

I am going to find a cowboy hat and maybe a deerskin jacket for my next shooting video.Stay tuned.

Low Wall ----- Metallic Silhoutte shooting would be excellent shooting practice. Any practice that involves placing the crosshair on the target and pulling the trigger makes the shooter better for that next shooting situation, be it target or hunting. Repetitive shooting from the bench is far better than no shooting at all, even after the load is well defined, IMO. Shooting three days per week will do wonders for your shooting confidence, Bench-Silhoutte-off hand-shooting sticks etc, it does not matter, just shoot. And that goes in spades when shooting the bigger stuff. Good shooting.

Here are two groups of three I shot this afternoon with H4895.The first group was shot with 500gr aframes and the second,500gr Woodleigh fmj.Tightening up the screws on my Ruger Lott raised the point of impact up nearly a foot.This grouping shows that you should get the same point of impact with solids and softs with the same loaed of H4895.The group was shot at 100yds with open sights on a overcast day late in the day.I also tried some off hand shooting with my Lott and 458WM and got beat up from the recoil because during very cold weather one has little strenght in the arms due to the body keeping blood away from the extremities and to the core.When shooting the big bores offhand and going for a 100yd bullseye.the sights need to be held a little higher(about ten inches).[URL= ]458Lott;H4895;aframes/Woodleigh fmj[/URL]