I received some of the latest version of the Woodleigh Capped Hydrostatic Stabilized Solids for testing. These are 500 grain of .474 diameter for the 470 Nitro caliber.

The caps came in two colors, white and green but I am not sure if there are any differences between them other than color. You will notice that the width of the bands have been reduced and the number of them has been increased from six to seven. They should solve the feeding problems in bolt rifles inherent in FN solid designs

465H&H

Looks like chewing gum.
I'd rather fix the gun.
I like that Woodleigh is thinking outside the box though.

None of the ammo makers that load DG cartridges for bolt rifles will do any FN solids for factory ammo due to the feeding problems. The Barnes experience assures that. With a capped design feeding will probably no longer be an issue so they may start offering one in factory form. That is a big positive for bolt rifle users.

465H&H

Have had no problems with my 400H&H and CEB 400gr Solids feeding through my New FN Winchester Mod 70. Is it more ramp angle than the shape of the projectile that is keeping FN Solids from reliably feeding? What rifle actions have been having problems feeding the FN projectiles?

When will these be available to the general public? AIU

Good bullet, maybe even better with the tip.

They all feed well in my double

Most of the time it is Mag follower angle.

Everyone remember the CZ 602 / 550 's in 458
that wouldn't quite feed the Winchester 510 grain bullets and the Win Mod 70 that wouldn't always feed the 500gn bullets ?

Their are of course other examples !

Those caps are interesting. I'd like to see a gel test with these to see how the caps actually break off and allow the rest to keep going.

Do they need to be glued on or do they snap somehow?

I also like that Woodleigh is continuing their work on these, only makes things better for the masses...no matter how small the mass actually is...

As we know I have tested the Hydros in a few big bore calibers, before the round nose cap of course. Terminally they are sound, penetration straight, lot's of trauma inflicted. Penetration here less than North Forks or BBW#13s. But, it should be as there is far more surface area, and enlarged surface area up front due to the cup point type design, which also explains the trauma inflicted.

Without the caps, they won't feed in any bolt gun, regardless. They won't even begin to feed even in my Winchester M70s. So the cap, excellent, and will allow much more use of the bullet. Sure, they do well in a double, but double guys don't shoot much anyway. Nothing compared to bolt use. So sales should increase, even at $2-$4 per bullet, except for the cheap bolt crowd. They don't want to spend more than about $0.25 on a bullet, and think that is too much!

Caps? I wonder how they depart from the bullet on impact? They HAVE to breakup very quickly, right at impact--If they do not, they will act like a RN and go beserk. I have been there done that with the tips on the BBW#13 Big Bores, until we put that HP in the tip! The HP in the tip caused total destruction of the tip at impact, and had no further influence on the bullet. Without that HP in the tip, then the tip did not breakup until further in the test medium, allowing influence on the stability of the bullet itself. This caused problems with shear, and stability, sometimes driving off course into a tumble. So if these caps bust off on impact, as they absolutely have to do, then they are a good thing!

Michael

"But double guys don't shoot much anyway"

Yeah we don't have too!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
"But double guys don't shoot much anyway"

Yeah we don't have too!

Yeah, unless you can't get all those barrels to shoot straight............

FUGGLY! Why bother when there are better designed bullets out in the market.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
FUGGLY! Why bother when there are better designed bullets out in the market.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith

Like ? (a few examples)

Does anyone remember the 9mm hangun "BAT" bullets from the early 80's??

I'll give a piece of candy to anyone who can remember what "BAT" means & their claim to fame

I wouldn't trust anything with plastic on its nose on the front of my bullets in a real big bore!!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Without the caps, they won't feed in any bolt gun, regardless. They won't even begin to feed even in my Winchester M70s.

Michael

Are you talking Woodleigh Hydro's or the other bullets ?

Woodleigh Hydro's feed in bolt guns, the odd one had problems
which the caps should fix.


The Caps do come off, we couldn't find the cap and it certainly didn't enter the animals (Water Buffalo) as the wound channel showed that. We did look for the cap between the muzzle and the animal and by the animal but couldn't find it or any pieces so we think it disintegrated. (Some test shots were fired into the dead animal as well as the actual killing shots).

.

quote:

Are you talking Woodleigh Hydro's or the other bullets ?

Woodleigh Hydros--with no caps.

They don't feed in any Winchesters I have, and if they won't feed in a Winchester M70, they are not going to feed in that common trash.

M70s feed up to a 68% meplat without any issues, no problems, nothing.

If I get my hands on some I can find out what happens to those caps!

Michael

I think the Woodleigh Hydros are superb bullets. If they won't feed in your rifle, I would suggest putting a Hydro in the tube in place of a soft and BBW#13s in the magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
FUGGLY! Why bother when there are better designed bullets out in the market.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith

Like ? (a few examples)

1 North Fork

2 Cutting Edge Bullets

3 Name a brand of FP soild

quote:

Originally posted by 600 Overkill:
Does anyone remember the 9mm hangun "BAT" bullets from the early 80's??

I'll give a piece of candy to anyone who can remember what "BAT" means & their claim to fame

I wouldn't trust anything with plastic on its nose on the front of my bullets in a real big bore!!

Seems to me that they had a base plug with a whole center. They acted like a cookie cutter.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
I think the Woodleigh Hydros are superb bullets. If they won't feed in your rifle, I would suggest putting a Hydro in the tube in place of a soft and BBW#13s in the magazine.

Then why bother with the Woodlies at all!

K.I. S.S., always workds.

Keith

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:

quote:

Originally posted by Hog Killer:
FUGGLY! Why bother when there are better designed bullets out in the market.

Just my 2 cents.

Keith

Like ? (a few examples)

1 North Fork

2 Cutting Edge Bullets

3 Name a brand of FP soild

Interesting responses. What I am gathering so far is that if CEB, NF, or GS Custom solid bullets don't feed it is the rifles fault and you need to fix it. If the Woodleigh Hydros don't feed it is the bullets fault so don't use them. What?

In my experience on elephants, the CEB#13, NFFN and Woodleigh Hydros penetrate equal distances on frontal head shots and on angled head shots. The Woodleigh hydro may do a little more tissue and bone damage.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

Interesting responses. What I am gathering so far is that if CEB, NF, or GS Custom solid bullets don't feed it is the rifles fault and you need to fix it. If the Woodleigh Hydros don't feed it is the bullets fault so don't use them. What?

465H&H

465H&H;

I love it! How many times have we heard here that if flat nose solids don't feed well your rifle is broken and you are supposed to send it off to the smith to get it fixed because, sooner or later, it is going to misfeed even a round nose bullet? However, if the Hydro doesn't feed, well then, just move on to a more suitable bullet.

Keith, I mean no offense, but I think the Hydros are maybe one of the best bullets on the market today. In a bolt gun, I would rank them slightly above the North Fork Cup Point solids. Using the Hydros in combination with the BBW#13 makes for a hell of a combination. In a double, the North Fork and BBW#13s are the better choice because the generate lower barrel strain. Although, I confess that in my 470, I just usually shoot Barnes flat nose banded solids. I worked up loads with the banded solids and the 500 grain Woodleigh softs and I am just to damn lazy to go back and start over again.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

Interesting responses. What I am gathering so far is that if CEB, NF, or GS Custom solid bullets don't feed it is the rifles fault and you need to fix it. If the Woodleigh Hydros don't feed it is the bullets fault so don't use them. What?

465H&H

465H&H;

I love it! How many times have we heard here that if flat nose solids don't feed well your rifle is broken and you are supposed to send it off to the smith to get it fixed because, sooner or later, it is going to misfeed even a round nose bullet? However, if the Hydro doesn't feed, well then, just move on to a more suitable bullet.

Keith, I mean no offense, but I think the Hydros are maybe one of the best bullets on the market today. In a bolt gun, I would rank them slightly above the North Fork Cup Point solids. Using the Hydros in combination with the BBW#13 makes for a hell of a combination. In a double, the North Fork and BBW#13s are the better choice because the generate lower barrel strain.

Sorry Dave and Walt but I disagree with the concept of just switching bullets and not fixing the rifle. My CZ is at Wayne's right now having some work done, (new trigger and 3 position safety). While working with it, he was able to get the rifle to jam with the last round. He replaced the ejector and now it feeds without problem. I suppose I could have just used a round nose bullet as I never had the gun jam on me. But he worked it aggressively enough to make it fail every time. What if I had just had blind faith in the gun to work because I hadn't made it jam previously, then in the heat of the battle, it failed me?

The reason Wayne has that gun in the first place is that the trigger disconnected on me while attempting to shoot a buffalo bull at close range on my Safari in 06. I had the trigger "fixed" but never trusted it after that. It hasn't been off the range since that incident. Now that it has been corrected, I will use it again. If the gun has a flaw, correcting the flaw is the proper course of action. Not putting a band aid on it like switching to a "Round Nose" bullet instead of the FN. Even if you use RN bullets, don't you want to know the gun will function with a FN. Just the fact that a failure can be forced on the gun is enough to make me always be suspicious of it failing.

On the Hydro, I don't know. Haven't tried them. Can't speak to whether or not they will feed in my gun. If not, I would think there is more work to be done on the rifle.

Very innovative. But do they work?

The Woodleigh Hydro is a cup point wadcutter. It is a little beyond "reasonable" to expect such to feed, I don't, and would not, not even in a very expesive custom rifle. The cap is a good idea, as long as it does not influence terminals.

It's performance, regardless of what 465HH says, is not superior to the BBW#13 or North Fork. Both of which are reasonable nose profiles in which one would expect to feed and function, exactly as the Barnes Banded as well. Any decent rifle will feed any of these. The Hydro nose profile without the cap, is not a reasonable profile to expect the same. With it not having superior performance, I would not waste the time to work a rifle over to have it feed myself.

465HH, the rest of the world shooting elephants from any "reasonable" angle, are not recovering very many BBW#13s. You are the only individual shooting elephants that I ever heard of that favors the "Angled Head" shot over all others.


Ever heard of the fellow who boasts about how good his 1911 feeds and functions? It's so good that it will feed "empty" cases? We always state, "Wow,that's amazing, but can it shoot them as well?".

Same here, feeding empty cases is very difficult to do, and not a reasonable quest in which to embark. I said nothing ugly about "Woodleigh", nothing at all, except by it's nose design it is not likely to be able to feed in any bolt gun regardless. Simple fact, nothing more. I like the bullet for it's purpose. Not superior and cannot penetrate as deep as a BBW#13, or a North Fork, as they are designed proper solids for deep, straight, penetration. The Hydro designed for a different purpose, a "Limited Penetration" Cup Point, like the North Fork Cup Point--Not MY NORTH FORK CUP POINTS--but the ones common folks pick up off the shelf! My NF CPS Expand, and are designed to do so.

Please, if I have offended any "Woodleigh Worshipers" then please accept this,

Michael

465H&H and Dave Bush

I agree with what you have both said.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Not superior and cannot penetrate as deep as a BBW#13, or a North Fork, as they are designed proper solids for deep, straight, penetration. The Hydro designed for a different purpose, a "Limited Penetration" Cup Point, like the North Fork Cup Point--Not MY NORTH FORK CUP POINTS--but the ones common folks pick up off the shelf! My NF CPS Expand, and are designed to do so.

Please, if I have offended any "Woodleigh Worshipers" then please accept this,

Michael

Not Woodleigh worshippers, just don't like some of the bias on here.



And as for the part of your post I have quoted above, BS.

"Limited Penetration" Cup Point - Where the efff did you get that from ?

Hell, we have enough problem trying to get recoveries of Hydro's,
where do you get limited penetration ?


"It's performance, regardless of what 465HH says, is not superior to the BBW#13 or North Fork"
Based on media performances ????


Michael
As much as I respect what you do with your testing in media,
nothing counts like dead animals on the ground and that is
what Woodleigh have over you. He can make a bullet, go out
and shoot a few animals (in some cases large) and see what happens.

He can post some off and have feedback from 10 - 20 in a week from Large Water Buffalo
and the bullets back in his hand a week later. And if he so desires (as he does), he can jump on a plane and go and do it himself.

So before these bullets even hit the market well over 100 animals (if not more)
of various sorts would have died from them and we are not talking about just shooting animals but picking shots that test the bullets to the max - end to end, leg bones, spine shots, jaw bones, all the shots that are the hardest on bullets.

You have unlimited test media, over here we have unlimited free test animals at our back door.

Michael,

My buddy Sam just sent me 3 Woodleighs!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

Please, if I have offended any "Woodleigh Worshipers" then please accept this,

Michael

Now that's funny! Calm down Michael. We love ya man!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
The Woodleigh Hydro is a cup point wadcutter. It is a little beyond "reasonable" to expect such to feed, I don't, and would not, not even in a very expesive custom rifle. The cap is a good idea, as long as it does not influence terminals.

It's performance, regardless of what 465HH says, is not superior to the BBW#13 or North Fork. Both of which are reasonable nose profiles in which one would expect to feed and function, exactly as the Barnes Banded as well. Any decent rifle will feed any of these. The Hydro nose profile without the cap, is not a reasonable profile to expect the same. With it not having superior performance, I would not waste the time to work a rifle over to have it feed myself.

465HH, the rest of the world shooting elephants from any "reasonable" angle, are not recovering very many BBW#13s. You are the only individual shooting elephants that I ever heard of that favors the "Angled Head" shot over all others.


Ever heard of the fellow who boasts about how good his 1911 feeds and functions? It's so good that it will feed "empty" cases? We always state, "Wow,that's amazing, but can it shoot them as well?".

Same here, feeding empty cases is very difficult to do, and not a reasonable quest in which to embark. I said nothing ugly about "Woodleigh", nothing at all, except by it's nose design it is not likely to be able to feed in any bolt gun regardless. Simple fact, nothing more. I like the bullet for it's purpose. Not superior and cannot penetrate as deep as a BBW#13, or a North Fork, as they are designed proper solids for deep, straight, penetration. The Hydro designed for a different purpose, a "Limited Penetration" Cup Point, like the North Fork Cup Point--Not MY NORTH FORK CUP POINTS--but the ones common folks pick up off the shelf! My NF CPS Expand, and are designed to do so.

Please, if I have offended any "Woodleigh Worshipers" then please accept this,

Michael

Michael,

No offense taken at all, simply a mater of different opinion base on different test media.

As you will note, I am very specific on what calibers, bullet weights and velocities that I have used and only comment on those. What other calibers will do with the various bullet makes, I don't comment on. For bullets of 480 to 500 grains in weight and from .458 Win, 465 Nitro and 470 Nitro, my observations stand. I have never said that no FN solid of any design, caliber to weight won't exit on those shots. Whether a 500 nitro express will exit with 570 grain bullets on those shots, I don't know since I haven't used them. I have also been careful to specify full frontal brain shots on elephants. I will say again, in the calibers, bullet weights and velocities that I have used, The CEB #13, NFFN and Woodleigh Hydros penetrated equal distances on full frontal brain shots on elephant. Same on angled head shots. Change any of these criteria and penetration may vary among the different types of bullets. On soft tissue side on body shots, they all exited so there is was no way for me to measure differences among bullet types in penetration depth. The only difference that I have seen among these bullets is that the Hydro gave more bone damage than the others. I have never said that any of these three were superior over the others. I hope to take two more next spring with the Hydro from my 470, mainly to see if that added bone damage I saw was a fluke.

I don't know why you think that I prefer the angled head shot as I have never made that statement. I have used it on five elephants and all five were instant kills. Better average than I have had with frontals but I don't prefer it. If you know elephant anataomy you can find the brain fairly easily on that shot. If you don't have the confidence to find the brain then you are smart to avoid that shot.


I have remained silent on the feeding issue as I haven't tried any of the FN in a bolt rifle except for the Hornady DGS and it fed fine from Browning Safari.

465H&H

quote:

I said nothing ugly about "Woodleigh", nothing at all, except by it's nose design it is not likely to be able to feed in any bolt gun regardless.

Michael

Funny how quite a few people can get them to feed out of bolt guns, including me.

Yes, a couple of different bolt guns had problems feeding them, hence the cap but more than that had no problem.

.

quote:

You have unlimited test media, over here we have unlimited free test animals at our back door.

quote:

We did look for the cap between the muzzle and the animal and by the animal but couldn't find it or any pieces so we think disintegrated.

All your test work and you don't know what happens to the caps and where they go?

Hmmmmm.......

505G, I really don't want or care how many animals you shoot, we shot 31 the last couple of weeks with BBW#13s and North Forks, does not matter how many animals you shoot, you still can't follow the bullet like you can in test medium to understand exactly what it is doing. Test first, understand the bullet, then go to the field with it for further understanding. We tested a new 3 blade #13 NonCon on buffalo the last couple of weeks, yep, blades penetrate the shoulders, but other than that, you cannot tell what is going on exactly. Yep, dead buffalo, yep, bullet exited and penetrated this far, that far, the other far, and yes, it broke bones and crunched and munched, but until you test in consistent medium that can be studied, you don't know what you got other than a dead buffalo, elephant or what have you. Test first, go to the field. This morning I tested that 3 blade bullet and the 6 blade bullet, I now know, understand and see exactly what is happening to that bullet.

I probably know more about your F*****G bullet than you do it appears!

Michael

Now now Michael, no need to get testy.

.

One of the concerns that I have with the Woodleigh capped bullet as well as any DG capped bullet is can or will it drop off while under recoil in the magazine and cause a jam if it falls off on the way to the chamber. Not a problem in a double rifle though. Thoughts?

465H&H

Michael,

Do you remember this? Anything designed by beer drinkers cannot be all bad.

Hi Sam

Are you back from your Australian trip? How about a report?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
"But double guys don't shoot much anyway"

Yeah we don't have too!

600 Overkill, was that BAT bullet " blunt action trauma" That was quite awile ago!

quote:

Originally posted by 505G:
Now now Michael, no need to get testy.

.

You Reap What You Sow--With Me!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
Michael,

Do you remember this? Anything designed by beer drinkers cannot be all bad.

Yes, I remember, Excellent. LOL....

Hey, I said it's a dandy bullet, does exactly what it's designed to do. I can't understand why the "WW" crowd hit me up?

My very first post on this thread;

quote:

Terminally they are sound, penetration straight, lot's of trauma inflicted.

The "Woodleigh Worship" Cult is so "Sensitive"

Much ado about Nothing!

Next.............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by lee440:
600 Overkill, was that BAT bullet " blunt action trauma" That was quite awile ago!

IIRC BAT was "Blitz Action Trauma". I've got a couple of them around somewhere. The hollow point was funnel shaped and went completely thru the bullet.