I can't seem to find any information on this cartridge in my usual source--Cartridges of the World, 9th Ed.

Is the Wells the same as the .500 A-Square? If not, is it based on the .460 Wby. case and therefore similar?

What are its benefits/drawbacks vs. the other .510s, i.e., the A2, the Jeffery and the AHR?

Any help will be appreciated.

[ 09-29-2003, 02:36: Message edited by: mrlexma ]

My understanding is, after having played with a wells and built a jeffery, is that the wells and a-square are essentially the same round, slighty different taper and shoulder, and are indeed based off the 460 weatherby.
The 460 weatherby, it self, in nothing but a 416 rigby with a belt. But, that belt makes for positive headspace, perhaps better stated as MORE positive headspace, for the round.

The case is LONGER than a 500 jeffery, but not a big around, as the jeffery has a rebatted rim, and is a bugger to get feeding right

Long enough, in fact, that it should be built on a magnum action, like a CZ, asquare case 2.90, max oal, 3.74, according to quickload. MY experience with the jeffery has been to keep it at 3.5 to 3.45, as woodleighs, crimped in horneber brass, wind up 3.45. A tad longer in bertram, go figure.

The wells/a2 is loaded to higher pressure, has slightly less case capacity, than a jeffery.

I think the PERFECT 50 is a wells/a2 on a cz or enfield, loaded at jeffery velocities.

jeffe

Thanks, jeffe.

I had some idea that the .510 Wells might be based on the .416 Rigby case. But it didn't seem to me (after looking at the .416 Rigby case dimensions) that there would be enough shoulder left after expanding the neck to .510" to provide reliable headspacing for the round.

The belted .460 Wby. case obviously solves that problem.

Hi Mrlexma,
I tried that exact thing and came up with the same conclusion as far as the 416 case being opened up to 50 caliber. The case isn't wide enough to allow enough shoulder and still maintain the minimum .005 taper per inch of cartridge length for reliable extraction.
Take care,
Dave

What do you have to do to make the 416 CZ to take advantage of the Belt on the 510 Wells?

In other words, what's the design difference between the 375 and 416 Rigby that allows one to space on the belt, and the other not to?

gs

Socrates,
The 416 has the proper bolt face, and is pretty close in feeding, mag, and rails.

it CAN be done off the 375/458... just involves more work.

mike's 470 is off a 458, and it wasn't the world's hardest thing to do, just that, for the same price, it was easier to start with the 416
jeffe

My out of the box 416 CZ 550 feeds the 460 Weatherby cartridge just fine, although the rim and extractor engagement is pretty loose. To build a cartridge out of a 460 WB casing with a 416 CZ 550 action, I replaced the 416 extractor with a 458/375 extractor and then ground the bevel/arc of the extractor hook slowly until a good rim/extractor is obtained. Either chambering from the CZ 550 action will have pros and cons so it's a matter of opinion which one should you start with. Good luck.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Socrates:
What do you have to do to make the 416 CZ to take advantage of the Belt on the 510 Wells?

In other words, what's the design difference between the 375 and 416 Rigby that allows one to space on the belt, and the other not to?

gs

---

OK:
So the 416 would head space, and the WBY spaces on the belt? The belt being on the edge of the chamber?

The Wells then uses 416 Rgby/WBY with a belt, allowing spacing on the belt, rather then on the case?

Think I've got it. So it's an adjustment of the bolt closed position that allows the use of the belt?

s

Hi Socrates,
The 416 Rigby headspaces on the shoulder of the case and the 510 Wells is made on a 460 Weatherby case which headspaces on the belt located aprox 1/4 of an inch above the case head the same as a 375 H&H case. You can't build the Wells on a Rigby case. The only reason the 50 caliber rounds can be built on the 460 Weatherby is because of the belt. It lets you fire form case etc and the minimal shoulder doesn't matter because it isn't used for anything. The Rigby case won't leave enough shoulder to headspace on reliably. Keep in mind that the difference between the shoulder measurement and the OD of the case at the neck has to be divided by two and then the Datum line for headspacing is half of that. It's getting pretty skimpy. The reamer used for cutting the chamber of the Wells cuts in the notch for the belt to heaspace on. I think that is what you were asking if not sorry about that.
Take care,
Dave

[ 09-30-2003, 07:45: Message edited by: 470 Mbogo ]

I believe the 510 Wells is a straight tapered case as is the 458 Lott.

The fired rounds that were with a gun I saw at a show many years ago did not have a parallel neck like a 450 Ackley.

This must have been ten years ago so correct me if I'm wrong.

Jamie

The .510 Wells and the 500A2 are essentially identical. Small diffrences in shoulder angle and body taper. Ballistic twins based on the Belted 460 Wby case. Reamers for the 500a2 are readily available, not so for the .510 wells. Both the Wells and 500 a2 will deliver more velocity than a 500 Jeffery or the slightly better 500 AHR( a long necked jeffery). All will deliver all the horsepower you would ever need in a true hunting rifle. The 500a2 is by far the easiest cartridge to build a rifle for. -Rob

Thanks Rob.

I must not remember correctly.

Is there a straight 510-460?

Jamie

the ahr is a jeffery with a slightly longer neck and a NORMAL (unrebatted) rim...

essentially, it's a jeffery, improved, but with only the difference in neck length would change the grains of water capacity...

460 weatherby/belted rigby based
510 wells
500 a2

500 jeffery based
500 jeffe
500 ahr

the jeffery has SLIGHTLY more capacity than the 460, but it's a wash, as you load the jeffery at MUCH lower pressure.

jeffe

I believe the 500 Jeffrey has ~10% more capacity than the 500 A2. I agree with Jeff, if I were to do it again, I'd go with the 500 A2 over the 500 Jeffrey just to have more easily obtained brass, and less exspensive brass.

After the 350 Rigby, and 500 Jeffrey, I've had my share of esoteric brass. I plan on sticking with standard cases in the future, but I can't always help myself

x-man--The straight case one was called 495 ASq.
Which I think is better as there is no shoulder to work.And a new outgrowth of this is the 550
Magnum, RNS and others are developing on 460 brass.Long and straight, and the absolute best use for 460 brass.Making it get as long as
possible.The 495ASq is like earlier one called the 505 Barnes, just as 500ASq is like earlier 510 Wells.Ed.

The 500A2 has precious little shoulder left on it. Not enough to reliably headspace on. FWIW I've found the 500 Jeffery/AHR varient the most difficult of all cartridges to get to feed reliably from a CZ550 Mag. The Cz action will really not work well with a staggered magazine box due to the dimensions of this cartridge. You really need a single stack mag ala Schuler to get this guy to feed properly. fritz454 and I were working on this, but it's backburnered for awhile. -Rob

Muchas gracias for all of the helpful info.

I'm going to get myself a .500 caliber DGR built on the CZ 550 Magnum action, and it sounds like most experts would recommend the .500 A2 above the others--more readily available brass, better (or more reliable) feeding, higher velocity. Is there a good source for strong, properly headstamped .500 A2 brass?

hubel458: The .550 Magnum does sound interesting, but how about bullets--seems like with a .550 bullet diameter it would be hard to find excellent game bullets.

What are the ballistics?

Mrlexma--We plan on getting 550 bullets from
fritz454's company. He can make any size we
want.It will get a 600 gr over 2500 fps.I am
involved as I am changing my 510 HE to a 550,
with a barrel rebore.My case is a lot longer and
will get 600 gr to about 3100.Doing wildcats on Weatherby brass, like ASq and others does save;
and brass supply is easier.ed.

Ed,

Sounds like a terrific project. I'll be watching for your results.

You might be able to get woodleigh to make bullets for it too. I believe they swage 585 bullets for our 55 boyes ATR shooters here.
Also from memory doesn't Hawk manufacture in this oddball size also?

Ed mentioned the 495 A-sqaure above.You don't hear much about that one.I wonder if anyone ever built one outside of A2 rifles.

Karl.

thought this topic was worth reviving in light of idahosharpshooter's 510KE and the fact that the 500 mbogo is in the womb.

and if i get rich i would build a beltless 500a2

Here you can see the shoulder on the 510 Wells. The 500A2 has a slightly sharper shoulder and less taper in body, therefore slightly more case capacity. I am presently restocking and rebarreling my Wells. This time, however, I am rebarreling in A2.

Mrlexma,

I humbly submit to you that I have an operating 510KX (Kayser Express) which is the 510 Wells built on cylindrical 416 Rigby brass that works 100% to date. It is built on a 1934 Remington action (enfield) and is the ballistic equivalent of the 500 A2 or the others. It uses the 510 Wells dies, because that is what it is, minus that irritating belt.

a different drummer...

Rich

Rich, that is great. Every man must follow his own judgment. Best of luck with your big boomer.