As some of you know, I have been looking for a .404 Jeff for a trip this summer to Zambia. Spent a lot of time looking and found what appeared to be a very nice Sterling Davenport.

I’m into the rifle for approx. 7k. Went down to my FFL and picked it up after my 10 day waiting period.

I had bought hornady and norma .404 ammo in advance and when I got home decided to run some through the rifle. I had asked the dealer before purchasing the rifle how it fed and how many rounds it held in the magazine, he had confirmed it fed well and held four down.

Well, you can get four in the magazine but the bolt will not make it over the top cartridge to close. I took a few rounds out to run it and the bolt would pick up the round and take forward but the bolt would not close all the way. I checked for obstructions, checked the extractor to see if any obvious issues, etc. Can’t find any issue.

The round appears to seat all the way in the chamber when I drop it in with the bolt open.

I emailed the dealer and he is saying there were two specs for the .404. He confirmed it fed well for him with his own handloads using a hornady .404 die. Said the british spec is tighter, but the fact it is not working for me and worked for him, would imply his hornady .404 die was british spec?

So, I’ve got a very nice looking, well balanced, DG rifle with a bolt that will not close and less than 60 days to submit paperwork on the rifle I’m taking to Africa. Have asked the dealer if he will take it back.

Any ideas on what could be causing the issue? Rifle is in like new condition, might have never been fired. Between the dealer confirming mag capacity and feeding, plus the fact it was built by Sterling Davenport, pretty shocked to be in this situation.

Thanks for any ideas, suggestions. As you might guess, really frustrating.

Having owned several 404 rifles of Various new and old manufacture
I have never had a factory round from any major maker not chamber.

I have also owned a couple of Sterlings rifles - also with no issues.

Several things could be wrong ,
60 days may or may not be enough time to sort this gun out.

Recommend a plan B , ( different rifle) if you have one.

If not get one,
or if you are in love with this gun ,
get it to compentent help tomorrow .

Dealer is saying he will not take it back, telling me to try Kyoch after telling me his handloads with a hornady die chambered well. Not adding up.

I've got a .375 I can take if needed, but had really wanted to take something larger.

I Would have a real problem with the dealer.

Unless it was specified in writing - No Returns-

He should take the item back -
assuming you have just received it (ie have not waited a month or two

I have not looked but I think I'm past the formal inspection period given CA ten day waiting period.

My issue with the dealer is that I specifically asked about feeding and mag capacity and got answers back assuring me of both. I'm out of his return policy but am struggling to see a scenario where he actually checked feeding and mag cap (he might have put four in and not closed bolt) and did not have the same issue I'm having. Only way that is true is if his reloads were "british spec".

If the chamber is too small, wondering how hard to ream a new chamber to spec?

Frankly ,the "two" chamber specs reasoning is largely rubbish.
The case length difference between CIP and Birmingham (Kynoch)
Is .0002. , 2.8750 vs 2.8748
Base diam is .5450 vs .5449
Shoulder diam difference is .0001, .5300 vs .5229
Length to shoulder is 2.0010 vs 2.0008
Length to neck is 2.2510 vs 2.2508
I do not have throat and leade numbers

Very helpful - thanks

I will quote from Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual.

quote:

When first designed the barrel specifications call for a 0.410" bore with a 0.418" groove diameter firing a 0.422" bullet. The chamber throat was designed to size the bullet down as it entered the rifling. This approach is unusual by modern standards and was soon dropped in favor of the normal convention where the bullet matches the groove size. Suffice to say, if you are loading for an old rifle, do check bore and groove diameter.

The manual then explains the loads they list are for a groove diameter of 0.422-3"

There is a bit of difference between 0.418" and 0.422-3". If you have the older design the nose of your cartridges might be encountering resistance just before fully seating.

When a round is fed from the magazine is the rim slipping in under the extractor or is the bolt just push feeding the cartridge ahead of the extractor?
If not then the extractor will not slip over the rim once the cartridge is chambered unless the blade of the extractor has been ground to do so.

By how much is the bolt not going into battery?

It seems you have a 3 round magazine but very close to a four rounder if the fourth is held down under the side rail. If the magazine spring is heavy you could likely do away with one leg of the spring which may provide enough clearance for the bolt to slide over the fourth round down although you still need enough to hold a 5th round partially down to slip in under the extractor blade and then chamber for 1 up 4 down.

My Mauser 404 has quite a soft spring and feeds cartridges like butter from the magazine. I have heard complaints of heavy springs that can pop rounds out of the side rails and also make feeding stiff from the magazine.

quote:

I had asked the dealer before purchasing the rifle how it fed and how many rounds it held in the magazine, he had confirmed it fed well and held four down.

He lied to sell you a defective rifle that he couldn't move locally.

99 percent of dealers never try used rifles that come into their stores.

To think he tried one in 404 makes me laugh his it feed my hand loads his just another lie.

Chances are he never had a box of 404 to try and never hand loaded for one.

Please name the dealer so the rest of us do not do business with him.

Yes, please out the scumbag in question.

If the problem is as I mentioned above, and if the dealer actually did try to feed his handloads, and if those handloads had very tapered bullets and/or bullets loaded further back, then he may be telling you the truth.

I do not know.

But the first thing you should do is "do check bore and groove diameter".

I had a similar issue with a .404 Jeffrey rifle I bought from Cabelas. It would not chamber ammunition loaded in Hornady cases to factory specs, but as I found out, would chamber Kynoch. Cabelas offered to take it back, but I liked it enough to want to keep it and work through the problem. Cabelas did refund part of the purchase price.

Working through the problem proved more complicated than I had thought. It involved changing to a Wiebe trigger guard/magazine and correcting the chamber with a more modern reamer. The rifle had evidently been a .375 H&H on an original Oberndorf SSB Magnum Mauser action, but had been "converted" by some ham handed "gunsmith", who was not proud enough of his work to put his name on it. The name or the original maker was lost with the original barrel. I have tried in vain to determine the original maker.



The rifle is now in the capable hands of Steven Bertram and is almost finished, the latest delay resulting from having to order a Magnum Mauser extractor from Prechtl in Germany. I hope to have it back in my hands by the end of the month.

Email the dealer and offer to buy a couple of his reloads.

Will the bolt close on an empty case?

Thanks guys. Have not tried on an empty case - good idea.

Extractor does close on the round coming out of the magazine, does not seem to be the issue.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
I had a similar issue with a .404 Jeffrey rifle I bought from Cabelas. It would not chamber ammunition loaded in Hornady cases to factory specs, but as I found out, would chamber Kynoch. Cabelas offered to take it back, but I liked it enough to want to keep it and work through the problem. Cabelas did refund part of the purchase price.

Working through the problem proved more complicated than I had thought. It involved changing to a Wiebe trigger guard/magazine and correcting the chamber with a more modern reamer. The rifle had evidently been a .375 H&H on an original Oberndorf SSB Magnum Mauser action, but had been "converted" by some ham handed "gunsmith", who was not proud enough of his work to put his name on it. The name or the original maker was lost with the original barrel. I have tried in vain to determine the original maker.



The rifle is now in the capable hands of Steven Bertram and is almost finished, the latest delay resulting from having to order a Magnum Mauser extractor from Prechtl in Germany. I hope to have it back in my hands by the end of the month.

Absolutely stunning rifle xausa, sorry for the sidetrack, had to be commented upon. Love that it's an original Oberndorf magnum action.

quote:

Originally posted by INTJ:
Will the bolt close on an empty case?

Also, do the bullets show any rifling marks after you chamber a round and try to close the bolt?

George

Thanks George, I looked last night and did not see any, but light was not great. I will try that again this evening. If the bore is tight, assuming I would see some rifling around the end of the bullet - am I thinking about that correctly?

Thanks for suggestion - asked dealer to send me some of his reloads (said I'd pay for them), hoping that I could send to Superior to match them and then I could hunt with the rifle this summer and look at rechambering later.

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
Thanks George, I looked last night and did not see any, but light was not great. I will try that again this evening. If the bore is tight, assuming I would see some rifling around the end of the bullet - am I thinking about that correctly?

The marks will be just ahead of the brass right around the curve of the bullet (ogive).

Thanks

That is correct.

Using a candle, 'smoke' the bullet and case neck. Chamber the round and cam the bolt down until it meets resistance. Stop and extract the cartridge.

If the bullet exhibits rifling marks, the barrel might have a short leade:


If the bullet shows no rifling marks but the case neck does, the might have a tight neck.

If an empty case won't chamber easily, it might have 'short' chamber; have a chamber cast made and take measurements. Compare them to the SAAMI and CIP specifications.

It might be fixed by just running a finishing reamer through the barrel.

George

The only thing that I could think of from my experience is that you have an undersized chamber.Especially if there is no squeeze felt when you put pressure trying to close the bolt.If it is a dead jam I would suspect the above.

I have experienced something similar on one occasion with a double rifle. Rounds would not drop fully into the chamber. Changing bullets worked fine for me . . . the difference in the profile/ogive of the bullets was enough to allow the rounds to fully chamber. The way the chamber was cut meant that I needed a bullet with a "faster" taper to the tip as opposed to a bullet with very little taper. It had nothing to do . . . in this instance . . . with the brass, sizing, etc., it was a function solely of bullet ogive given how the chamber was cut. What is a little troubling in your example is that the problem occurred both with Hornady and Norma ammo. Would be interesting to know how similar the bullet ogive is with both types of bullets.

10 Generation. I have assembled only four 404 Jeffery's but did have my reamer and gages made by Hugh Henriksen to work with the current Hornady and Norma ammunition. To date both brands of ammo chamber perfectly as do any hand-loads when using a Redding 404 die set.

There use to be a considerable difference in the RWS ammo as it was on average .030 shorter on the datum line distance giving you .030 headspace right off the bat if you use a reamer and gages such as mine. Stephen Heilmann also has noticed the same anomaly with the RWS ammo. Perhaps you chamber was cut to the RWS spec.

Thanks all, dealer has said if the rifle will not feed Kyoch ammo, he will take it back or recut the chamber for me.

My goal is to get this working - like the rifle very much.

Really appreciate the insights - its great to be able to tap into such a base of knowledge.

I'm really surprised no one has mentioned making a cerosafe cast of the chamber and Measuring the exact chamber dimensions. Compare that to published 404 Jeffery specs or actual cartridges will tell you exactly what the problem is and suggest how to deal with it. It's easy! Plug the barrel with tissue paper just past the loaded cartridge length, melt the cerrosafe, ( follow the directions) pour it into the chamber all the way to where the cardtridge base starts , let it cool and push out the cast with a cleaning rod from the muzzel end. The chamber cast will be within 1/10000 of actual diameter. This is the best way to determine exactly what's going on here and how to fix it. Otherwise it's just a lot of well
Meant speculation and time is ticking!
Why would you let a dealer who sold you a rifle that won't even chamber factory rounds then BS'd you with stories to "re-cut" your chamber? Duh! Prepare yourself for a horror story and endless delays and excuses!

My local smith is backed up, said 3 weeks to slug bore and cast chamber - agree its a good idea.

I wonder how much free bore matters in the big calibres which generally shoot relatively long bullets not so prone to tilting before entering the rifling. While this measurement maybe more critical for good accuracy in smaller calibres it may not be so for the big boys. For DG rifles it would be better to err on the side of caution and have more freebore.
It was accepted, maybe only in earlier years, that more free bore was needed if using monometals allowing some jump to the rifling to control pressure build.

My Mauser 404 is a convert from the shorter 10.78x68 Mauser cartridge and has a freebore with standard cup and core bullets of about 7mm if memory serves me correctly. It shoots both jacketed and cast very accurately, clover leaf with cast. Also shoots the shorter 347gr cup and cores perfectly too although I do seat all bullets out to the maximum length in the magazine which is the 404 OAL spec length for 400gr bullets crimped in the cannelure.

I suspect that when my rifle was modified was the era when the first monometals had come on the scene so adequate free bore was built in when re-chambering.

All conjecture but I don't have to worry about jamming bullets into the rifling and accuracy certainly hasn't suffered.

sorry for your trouble - and if i received a factory chambered rifle, that WAS NOT explicitly sold as "tight/off/small/needs work" it would go back if it won't properly chamber factory rounds. full stop

take a sharpie, coat the ENTIRE round .. from tip to primer, let it dry, then chamber it (not from mag, btw) -- take pics - i suspect you will see wear at shoulder and or at base ... a factory round and chamber should have enough clearance to NOT make more than incidental scuffs.

there are at least 2 different and incompatible 404 chambers - call redding and ask, if you like.

if FACTORY ammo won't go into a chamber,the chamber is defective - and the rifle goes back.

this shouldn't be a hard story

Even if it did feed factory rounds a very tight chamber would not let you off the hook should you want to reload.A FL sizing die will not bring the case back to factory dimensions-not to mention the high pressures it would cause even with starting loads.

Rob,

I mentioned a chamber casting in my post with the photo of the leades.

George

10generation,

Hope you get it sorted out in time to hunt with, as you'll feel far more comfortable with a 40 + hunting DG in heavy cover with Andrew.

All the best

Leon

It will be interesting to hear how this turns out.

The .416 Rigby Ruger RSM of mine has a similar, short, leade-only throat, like the 404 Jeffery.
Early Swift bullets had an ogive that would not allow me to load them unless seating them deeper than the cannelure.
They worked fine in the .416 RemMag which has some parallel-sided free-bore of greater diameter than bullet caliber,
but not the .416 Rigby.
I guess Swift heard about that and fixed it, later 400-grain A-Frames work in both now.

Nowadays, there is really only one standard to go by, C.I.P., screwed up as it may be, by the "squeeze-bore-bullet" thing from 1905.
(drawings with specs below, from the "404 Jeffery History" thread)

A separate throating reamer made by Dave Manson to match his chamber finish reamer would allow longer COaL,
if you have the magazine length for it,
or use of any ogive on the bullet,
if the bullet ogive versus throat is the problem.

Use .4240" parallel-sided free-bore (PSFB) diameter, and a leade angle of about 1.5 degrees,
and make it as long as you like for PSFB length.

Such a throating reamer may be how my McGowen-barreled 404 Jeffery digests any bullet or powder charge with good accuracy.
It may also be how the 404/.416 Rigby Improved Plus was chambered,
using a .395 Tatanka reamer for the case body and 20-degree shoulder,
then a 404 Jeffery reamer for the neck,
then a separate throating reamer for free-bore.
Just takes a few precision turns of the reamer for the throat.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Everyone agrees, crimp on the cannelure.
There is not much room to do anything else.
No need to seat out.
I am going to check the 404 Jeffery History thread to make sure these drawings are posted there.

Here is the CIP throat, assuming a .423"-grooved barrel is used:



CIP shows an odd groove and bore diameter (.418" and .412") that does not match the .422" bullet diameter they show.

Dave Manson reamer throat is same as CIP but it it works in the usual bullet and barrel specs accepted as modern now: .423" bullet diameter and groove diameters of .423" to .425".
Note Manson quotes the bore diameter of a Krieger barrel, for piloting purposes.
Krieger groove diameter is .424".



Review:

Barrel groove diameters:

.423" groove: Pac-Nor and Lothar Walther
.424" groove: Krieger
.425" groove: McGowen

Riflecrank Internationale Permanente Incurable
The 404 Jeffery, Nebraska '04, Ray Atkinson Booking Agent, Shooting the Moon and Bison:

Here is the latest, I tried the 450 grain norma round with a bit more pressure and the bolt closed. It did not close smoothly, but did not take a lot of pressure. Felt like I was snugging the round into the chamber. Felt like it was snug when I was extracting as well. But it did appear to go in the chamber and the bolt closed.

Not sure if that would be safe to shoot or not?

I checked hornady again, still would not close. Very clearly not a fit.

Going to try some other ammo, you guys think it would be ok to shoot the Norma?

Do you have a way to pull the bullets (if they are crimped) and then reseat them a little deeper? If they are not crimped, just seat the bullets a little deeper and try to chamber a round, repeat until a round chambers easily. This is a bullet ogive issue in my mind . . . especially since the Norma rounds are 450 grain Woodleighs versus 400 grain Woodleighs.

Contact dpcd privately. You he knows a lot about a lot, and you might be able to convince him to put you in the front of the line. Great gunsmith to deal with.

At this point my main concern would be that the chamber is of the original design. That would suggest your groove diameter is only .418".

"When first designed the barrel specifications called for a 0.410" bore with a 0.418" groove diameter"

That's a tight squeeze for a .422" or .423" bullet. Rechambering won't help that. I suggest, again, that you check the bore and groove diameter.