quote:

Going to try some other ammo, you guys think it would be ok to shoot the Norma?

I would not shoot it until I verified the bore and groove diameter.

@ Grenadier:

I assumed this rifle had a modern barrel of .423" to .425" groove, a recent-make custom.
Sterling Davenport is not quite 1905 vintage.

If it is an antique ...

@ 10generation:

Of course one should know the barrel groove and bore specs first of all.
Easy to do with a soft lead slug (fishing sinker or soft lead .44 special wadcutter or whatever of useful slug size)
and a 3/8" brass or soft steel, cold-rolled, rod or bar stock from local hardware store,
since a wooden dowel should not be trusted to survive the mallet.

The Norma PH 450-grain ammo comes as soft or solid, bullet by Woodleigh, eh?





Those Woodleigh 450-grainers for the 404 Jeffery are .422" diameter:
404 Jeffery .422"
http://www.woodleighbullets.co...itional/405-458-list

The Hornady bullets are .423" diameter and the ogive is different.
Ogive number and bullet diameter are greater at region of interest with the Hornady,
compared to the Woodleigh:
404 Jeffery .423"
http://www.hornady.com/store/.423-423-Cal

423 Cal .423 400 gr DGS®



423 Cal .423 400 gr DGX®

Rip
Sterling is older than us ,

About 83 if my memory serves me

Agree , doubtful it was a 418 barrel
Doubtful also he used "non standard " reamer
without marking the barrel in some manner to indicate it

Not saying it could not be the case- just doubtful
Guess he could have assembled an old original barrel
Just not likely
Now , if he only stocked the rifle
All bets are off

But ,I have only owned a handful of his rifles
And have not talked to him in a few years

quote:

Originally posted by Clan_Colla:
Rip
Sterling is older than us ,

About 83 if my memory serves me

Agree , doubtful it was a 418 barrel
Doubtful also he used "non standard " reamer
without marking the barrel in some manner to indicate it

Not saying it could not be the case- just doubtful

But ,I have only owned a handful of his rifles
And have not talked to him in a few years

Like I said, Sterling Davenport is not quite 1905 vintage.
He is same vintage as Ray Atkinson.

He surely does make great rifles.
I fired member lb404's 500 Jeffery by Sterling Davenport.
It was very accurate, sweet handling, beautiful rifle.

I think this must be a case of bullet nose bumping a standard 404 Jeffery throat.

I like Norma 404 Jeffery brass, no nickle plating please.
I have nothing against Hornady brass and use a lot of it in other chamberings.
I just got started with Norma before there was Hornady 404 Jeffery brass.
If starting over, I would just as soon go Hornady.

Get some virgin brass and FL size then trim it to suggested trim length of 2.865".
(Max brass length 2.875" by C.I.P., but an old RCBS book I have listed 404 Jeffery brass length as 2.860", not quite right.)

Then see if bolt closes easily on that brass.

If it does then seat bullet and try, keep seating deeper until it chambers easily.

Get certain on the Barrel Groove SPEC first!

If your Groove diameter is .422" or greater, then the Norma PH ammo should be fine,
and even finer after you chamber the rounds a few times each.

I would want to be able to load my own for any hunting trip.
And as others stated, if any uncertainties, do a chamber cast and slug the barrel.
I would certainly do that to keep a Sterling Davenport rifle.
I wonder if he would have any records?
Is Sterling Davenport still alive?

Davenport, Sterling D
Licensee in Tucson, Arizona
Sterling Davenport Stockmaker
(520) 749-5590

"Hello, my name is Rip, and I am a riflecrank."


First Stop in SD had this one, no longer available, never been fired, what a shame:



"Sterling Davenport FN Mauser Custom Express Rifle,404 Jeffrey,24" barrel with quarter rib and banded front sight with flip up night sight,beautiful stock with center laminate,cheekpiece,wrap checkering,ebony forearm tip,inletted rear swivel with barrel band,trap door grip cap,jeweled bolt,new unfired."

Quite a nice stock with center laminate:










Riflecrank Internationale Permanente Incurable
The 404 Jeffery, Nebraska '04, Ray Atkinson Booking Agent, Shooting the Moon and Bison:

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
Here is the latest, I tried the 450 grain norma round with a bit more pressure and the bolt closed. It did not close smoothly, but did not take a lot of pressure. Felt like I was snugging the round into the chamber. Felt like it was snug when I was extracting as well. But it did appear to go in the chamber and the bolt closed.

Not sure if that would be safe to shoot or not?

I checked hornady again, still would not close. Very clearly not a fit.

Going to try some other ammo, you guys think it would be ok to shoot the Norma?

So were there any rifling marks on the bullet?

No rifling on the bullet. I'm traveling but should be home tomorrow and will confirm.

I will do the sharpie test as well.

I contacted Sterling when I was looking at buying the rifle and he confirmed he had built it. It was one of his earlier builds.

I dropped him a note and asked about the chambering but don't want to be a bother. He was very nice when I contacted him, would like to own more of his rifles....once I get this one figured out!

Thanks Rip and others for all the feedback - much appreciated.

Cerrosafe! !!!!!!!! You'll be glad you did!

You obviously have a short chamber, the old specs, and that gun may be older than you think, the best option is have someone run a new chamber reamer in it..I wouldn't take 30 minutes including set up..Ruger had the same problem some years ago. Sold a bunch of rifles that wouldn,t close on a round..Also you might contact Sterling Davenport if hes still on this side of the dirt, not sure..

Your major problem is time, don't play with your safari, use your .375, and you may be able to do the paper work on both guns, if so do that. Then you can take both or either one..

I also would take a chamber cast before I did anything else..get it to a good gunsmith an beg borrow or steal to get the gun fixed in time. It won't get fixed on the internet because none of us know what the problem is...

Sterling emailed me back and offered to take a look at the rifle but he's 83 and retired and does not feel right to me to ask him to do that.

Gene Simillion has built a couple of rifles for me and said he could check it out, will likely send to him.

I got the ammo in from superior, only the hornady factory will not allow the bolt to close. I tried the sharpie trick but really could not see anything. I've now had the norma 450 grain, a handload with hornady brass and 400 grain TSX, and a handload with hornady brass and a CEB 300 grain chamber, but all required a snug push down of the bolt.

Seems like RIP's thought on Ogive with the hornady and Ray's diagnosis of a short chamber might be right.

I guess that means, chamber needs to be reamed further.

Thanks for all the help - will continue to try and get this figured.

When I got my 6x45 it would not chamber my handloaded rounds. I tried everything and even took it back to the manufacturer. They showed me how their rounds chambered without any problem.Eventually I figured out that the fireformed cases (from 223 brass) had formed massive doughnuts in the neck and when I reamed them out, no more problems.

Did you ever try to chamber a sized empty brass case? My bet is that you'll have the same problem which would be consistent with a short chamber. If you trim the case back 0.01 - 0.02 I'll bet you can close the bolt on that case without resistance, confirming the diagnosis.

RCBS used to quote a max brass length of 2.860" for the 404 Jeffery.
Current brass max spec, and C.I.P. spec, is for 2.875" maximum length.

A chamber minimum length is usually 0.010" to 0.020" longer than the brass maximum length, varies with various cartridges,
averages about 0.015".

Very well could be that the old chamber reamer was meant for 2.860" brass maximum and was cut with the minimal 0.010" plus tolerance ,
giving a chamber minimum of 2.870".

That might make chambering of 2.875" brass behave as you seem to be getting with your rig.

Rob's idea is a good one.
Trim the brass down to 2.860" and see if that cures the problem.
That might also simultaneously cure any bumping of the throat by bullet ogive.

If so, and the barrel has proper groove size for the bullets, you are good to go, with handloads.

Or get it re-chambered with a few turns of the C.I.P. reamer like I showed above, by Dave Manson.
That ought to handle any factory load.
Personally, I like to add 0.300" length of parallel-sided free-bore (PSFB) to my 404 Jeffery rifles.

PSFB diameter is 0.001" in diameter greater than bullet diameter.
That would be 0.424" diameter for the 0.423" bullet.
1.5-degree leade.

That means there are traces of rifling left in the "free-bore" of my 404 Jeffery rifles that use McGowen barrels.
Groove diameter for them is 0.425".
My slug of the McGowen barrel showed it to be no bigger than 0.425" groove diameter,
maybe 0.4245".
They still shoot "like a house afire" with any .423"-diameter bullets I have tried.
That was a North Fork that took the "Moon over Nebraska" bison, see below.

404 Jeffery McGowen barrel with 1:10" twist delivered North Fork .423/380-grainer at 2535 fps MV to bison chest at 80 yards:





Riflecrank Internationale Permanente Incurable
The 404 Jeffery, Nebraska '04, Ray Atkinson Booking Agent, Shooting the Moon and Bison:

If it were in my shop the first thing I'd do is remove the striker, extractor and collar and see it the bolt closes normally on a cartridge and a "Go" gauge. Maybe the extractor is too long for the recess in the cases, or maybe the bolt got switched with another rifle?

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
If it were in my shop the first thing I'd do is remove the striker, extractor and collar and see it the bolt closes normally on a cartridge and a "Go" gauge. Maybe the extractor is too long for the recess in the cases,

Brass extractor groove cut may have changed since Sterling Davenport built it?
OK, another possibility since prior "short chamber" and short max brass spec seem to be real.

or maybe the bolt got switched with another rifle?

I shudder to think that anyone could have been so carelessly disrespectful as to switch the bolt on this rifle, but possible.

And I better correct myself on shooting that thing. Don't do it until it has been fully evaluated and "adjustments made."

The rifle from First Stop that was never shot? Now we know why.

Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

quote:

or maybe the bolt got switched with another rifle? I shudder to think that anyone could have been so carelessly disrespectful as to switch the bolt on this rifle, but possible.

Trust me this can happen far easier than you think.
I took possession of a set of 4 Super Grade rifles, I scoped them and started sighting them in, noticed that the .270 did not eject the empties they just dribbled out, come to find out the .270 bolt was in the .375 H&H (which I had not shot) and the 375 bolt was in the 300 Win Mag and the 300 Win bolt was in the 270.......
I sorted it out.

If Stearling said he would take a look at it, he built the rifle and he is an excellent gunmaker, and 83 is nothing more than a number. Since he built it I,m pretty sure he wouldn't charge you a dime??, Im also sure he wants it to work..He is a good person and a dear friend of the late George Hoffman, George told me more than once that there wasn't a better guy to do business with than Stearling Davenport..Thats pretty high praise in my books.

I think RIP hit it on the head. The brass being used now is probably just 0.15-0.02 too long. The shorter version was probably the standard when sterling built the gun.I'd take a round that you had to force to close and with a bullet puller, pull the bullet. Empty the powder out and trim the case to 2.850. Reseat the same bullet, put the powder back
In and I'll bet it feeds and the bolt closes like butter. Go shoot it now!
If I'm right, do this to 30 factory rounds and off you go to Africa!

Your in California and I'm in Vegas. Not sure if you reload or not, but if you buy a 404 Jeffery die set, and take a southwest flight out to Las Vegas, I'll get this puppy fixed for you. I'll show you how to reload to boot! I know what it's like to have a major issue when your getting ready for a major African hunt! PM
Me if you want!

The problem is in the shoulder, not the neck so setting the neck back is probably not the answer. need to ream out the shoulder so the longer brass will fit. you have two accepted chamber reamers over the years, one is shorter than the other, you gun is an early gun, and I bet Stearling used and older reamer, most guys his age did at one time or another.

Take it to a gunsmith, any gunsmith worth his salt can fix it in 60 minutes including set up time if he has the proper reamer.

Another consideration is does HOrnady use the proper specs?? or were they bumfuzzled as was Ruger at one time..I would be suspect of this because your custom ammo worked and Hornady didn't, meaning Hornady cases are shorter..so run one of your long cases thru your die full length and see if that case will work in your rifle..if so then all you have to do is resize all the HOrnadys to fit your chamber and you wont need to change a thing.

As to some .404 bullets being .418, that is a new one on me, all .404 Jefferys are .423..

The 450-400 is also a 40 caliber and it can be .418 or .411, 412, These of course could be shot in a 404 J. but they would rattle like a bowling ball in a boxcar and scatter shots from here to eternity...

This thread is interesting for sure, as we wait to get the latest sitrep.
Not quite a "thriller" and certainly not a "whodunnit" since we know who done it.
More like a "whutdunnit" History Channel documentary building to the reveal ...

Here is an old Wolfe pub drawing from 1993 publication, presented as an excerpt for review of the book The Illustrated Reference of Cartridge Drawings.
From page 192:



Review: Interesting book, but dated, not quite right on page 192.

Now excerpt for review of the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading, Tenth Edition, pp 738-739:



Review: The Hornady book is a good book.

That Dave Manson reamer cut to C.I.P. standards and for a .424"-grooved barrel, but works fine with .423" and .425"-grooved barrels too:



Pierre van der Walt's article that is based on the research of Casey Lewis and Alf Smith, for the BSA journal:



Pg.1:









Pg. 2:





.
.
.
Continue reading final page 2 frame below
starting at "Case Rim" heading ,after finishing the frame above,
cropped and enlarged this way for legibility:
.
.
.






Pg. 3:









Pg. 4:










Now I am really confused. Krieger made .421"-grooved barrels previously.
Now they are .424".

Unless Sterling Davenport kept very good records of what he did long ago, he will have to do the same as any gunsmith:

A chamber cast and barrel slug and apply the proper reamer if indicated.

But, if just FL sizing the brass and trimming it makes it easy to chamber a loaded round and work the bolt to extract and eject,
a man would still need to know how long the chamber is and what the groove diameter of the barrel is.

Back to a chamber cast and a barrel slugging.

I am just going to screw it all
I do not mean to badmouth the 404 Jeffery in any way whatsoever.
It was the first (1905) truly great magazine, repeating rifle adequate for any task.
But I feel the urge to build a ".410/404 Jeffery Justified" the way it should might have been, .410"-groove, .400"-bore, if only the old cordite would have allowed it.

Hello Douglas Barrels again!
I can shoot any caliber bullet from .408 to .411-caliber, as long as stable in a 1:14" twist,
and size down .416-caliber bullets to .410-caliber until the cows come home!



Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

Thanks guys, rifle is getting shipped to Gene this week!

To get a discombobbulated 404 Jeffery rifle and its ammo sorted out, that is a supremely rewarding thing.
Yep, the 404 Jeffery is the all-time greatest ever, first ever, fully capable magazine-repeater DGR.

Y'all keep building, buying, and shooting those 404 Jeffery rifles and ammo,
so we will always have a supply of brass.
Long live the 404 Jeffery.

Riflecrank Incurable Permanente

Thanks RIP - I'm pretty fired up to get this sorted!

Well guys, I’ve hesitated to write the conclusion to this story as it takes a positive turn and then a really unfortunate one.

I got the rifle out to Gene Simillion and, as expected, it would not take more than three in the mag and needed a bunch of work.

The good news is Gene got it dialed in, added a swarovski scope, got it functioning very well, and developed a load with a barnes TSX 400 Grain that shot to .243 inches. I was very pleased.

He shipped it back to me and I got back late at night from a business trip, looking forward to seeing the rifle. The rifle was surrounded by foam in a plastic rifle case inside a cardboard box. I slid out the plastic case, undid the latches…..and saw a beautiful custom Davenport rifle with the stock broken completely through at the wrist. Suffice to say, pretty shocking and a huge disappointment.

Gene has been great about helping me since then. Rifle was insured and he filed a claim with UPS. They sent someone out to see the rifle and take pictures and then got back to Gene and told him the rifle was not packaged correctly (like Gene hasn’t shipped a few rifles) and said they would not pay on the claim (apparently their standard playbook). Gene is pushing on them and I’m lined up behind him to do whatever is needed to get restitution for their gross mishandling of the firearm. The UPS person told me that it was designated to be hand carried….and somehow they managed to break a piece of solid walnut wrapped in foam in a hard plastic case!

So, a bad outcome, but this is stuff, not people I care about – have to keep it in perspective. As always, appreciate all the advice, insight and ideas from AR, wish this story turned out better.

Sabotage at UPS?
Happens too often!
Surely Gene can help put the screws to them.
What was the frigging insurance for anyway?

Ah, well, it would be interesting to know what sort of metalwork Gene did to sort it out.

I had a CZ 550 Magnum fancy-stocked by CZ-USA snap off at the wrist due to poor grain lay-out.
A B&C Kevlar/Aramid/Medalist stock is available for the CZ 550 Magnum, and standard M98 Mauser as well.
CZ stood by their stock, offered more wood, but I chose to have the Kevlar instead of more wood as replacement, their $.

THE FEW THE PROUD THE 395 FAMILY
Rip

RIP,

Below is Gene's description of the work he needed to do:


I had to ream the chamber deeper, open the bolt face .004 in diameter, square up the bolt face, drill and tap for 8x40 screws, rework the bottom metal to get as much depth as possible, rework the bolt stop so bolt would clear magazine box, and reinlet stock to prevent any possible splitting issues. The magazine box will hold three down. The box at the shoulder is about .100 too narrow to allow a fourth round down.

I had a similar UPS experience with a original correcly cartouched 1892 krag rifle. Luckily the break at the wrist was clean with only a few fragments. After a lot of soul searching, I decided to see if it could be salvaged after UPS refused to pay. Long unpleasant story!
I thought about it for awhile, then drilled the stock for a 3 inch piece of 3/8 inch all thread rod with a very generous hole in both pieces of the stock to facilitate alignment. I coated the all thread with 5 minute epoxy as well as the two mating wood holes and covered the exposed wood ends with cyanoacryate CA super glue and aligned the two pieces.i was very careful to use the minimum amount of epoxy and CA to
Avoid runs. The two pieces fit together perfectly and with a toothpick I added CA to the loose wood fragments and fitted them in place on the stock. In about 1hr, to be honest you had to know the stock was ever broken to detect the repair! A bit of linseed oil mixed with shoe polish matched the coloration of the stock petfectly. I've fired it with no issues many times since. Obviously this should be considered an emergency repair, but could save the stock if all else fails. Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by 10generation:
Well guys, I’ve hesitated to write the conclusion to this story as it takes a positive turn and then a really unfortunate one.

I got the rifle out to Gene Simillion and, as expected, it would not take more than three in the mag and needed a bunch of work.

The good news is Gene got it dialed in, added a swarovski scope, got it functioning very well, and developed a load with a barnes TSX 400 Grain that shot to .243 inches. I was very pleased.

He shipped it back to me and I got back late at night from a business trip, looking forward to seeing the rifle. The rifle was surrounded by foam in a plastic rifle case inside a cardboard box. I slid out the plastic case, undid the latches…..and saw a beautiful custom Davenport rifle with the stock broken completely through at the wrist. Suffice to say, pretty shocking and a huge disappointment.

Gene has been great about helping me since then. Rifle was insured and he filed a claim with UPS. They sent someone out to see the rifle and take pictures and then got back to Gene and told him the rifle was not packaged correctly (like Gene hasn’t shipped a few rifles) and said they would not pay on the claim (apparently their standard playbook). Gene is pushing on them and I’m lined up behind him to do whatever is needed to get restitution for their gross mishandling of the firearm. The UPS person told me that it was designated to be hand carried….and somehow they managed to break a piece of solid walnut wrapped in foam in a hard plastic case!

So, a bad outcome, but this is stuff, not people I care about – have to keep it in perspective. As always, appreciate all the advice, insight and ideas from AR, wish this story turned out better.

There aren't enough 4 letter words in the English language that would describe those scoundrels!!

Moe,

I tried, I really tried to cover every one I could think of!

I once received a shotgun that had hit the ground so hard that the plastic buttplate was shattered in addition to the broken stock itself. How hard was the box thrown to achieve that result? Like you said, self serving scoundrels. In a real business, someone would be looking for a new job.