Hey all, why isn't the 450 rigby more popular? if CZ builds rifle in that chambering it would seem easy to get one. is there something that makes the 458 lott a better choice still (price of course, other than that though?)

just curious, cool looking cartridge.

Red

I would wager cost is probably the biggest factor, as you already mentioned.

CZ only has the 450 Rigby in one of their more expensive lines (I forget the name of it) where you could buy a CZ 458 Lott in just their standard safari model. Not to mention, many other companies also chamber the 458 in their standard safari rifle, so that gives and edge to the Lott. The more companies that chamber a round the easier it is to obtain components for it.

Now I know .458 diameter bullets are easy to find and 416 Rigby brass, although expensive, is also readily available (which I believe can be fire formed to 450 Rigby). Compared to the Lott, which, again, uses the same bullets, but has the even easier and cheaper brass to come by based on the 375 H&H casing. We again have the Lott being favored.

Then there is a whole multitude of nit-picky things we could get into like number of cartridges in the magazine, how the Lott also accepts 458 Win Mag ammo, ease of finding ammo in Africa, blah blah blah.

Having said all that above, I have relatively little desire to own a 458 Lott, but the 450 Rigby ... well, I like the sound of that. I usually like being different though.

We are seeing alot of custom rifles in this cal - mostly converted CZ .458 Wins. The Kruger rangers seem to favour this cal.

Factory brass is available from a couple of sources in Africa and Norma offer it both in their PH line and in the regular brass cased 'Solids', but for the most part it is a hand loading option.

Within CIP pressures you can drive a Barnes 500grn mono to 2575fps without difficulty....which is about the speed the guys download the .460 Weatherby to...and it doesn't have a belt to take up mag capacity.

Nice round...bolt throw too long for my liking (but same applies to .416 rigby)

ganyana, what do you prefer then? I always thought difference in bolt throw was a myth that guys in the field didn't really notice, but haven't done enough field shooting myself to have done any testing.

quote:

is there something that makes the 458 lott a better choice still

Could be the Lott has the 'just right' power to get the job done? Like the 375H&H, just right is hard to beat. Even if you can make it a little more powerful, its no longer optimum.

it was saamied in 1996, or thereabouts, right? its not an ancient nostaglic round... in fact, its an unbelted 460 weatherby ... the 450 rigby nostalgic round is rimmed, gents.

so, about the same time as the lott made saami, the lott holds 2 more in a 602, and the lott works in the winchester/m700/mausers ....

here's to shorter actions, which is relative, i guess

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

is there something that makes the 458 lott a better choice still

Could be the Lott has the 'just right' power to get the job done? Like the 375H&H, just right is hard to beat. Even if you can make it a little more powerful, its no longer optimum.

...and like Ganyana says,shorter bolt travel.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

Could be the Lott has the 'just right' power to get the job done? Like the 375H&H, just right is hard to beat. Even if you can make it a little more powerful, its no longer optimum.

this from the same guy pushing me to buy and test the super performance 375HH? (but refusing to buy the ammo hisself)

that's just a tad hyporitical, aint it?

quote:

this from the same guy pushing me to buy and test the super performance 375HH? (but refusing to buy the ammo hisself)

I dont need the superformance. I don't even want the superformance in 375 or new HiVel 404 loads. I suggested this only to keep the comparison between 375Ruger and 375H&H a fair and equal test. Same modern powder in both.

The standard 375H&H velocity vs bbl length was given an unbiased test long ago.

There are those who want a little extra there is superformance. Is that modern and improved. Or just more?

For those who choose a short barrel and think the 50 fps lost is a problem, then can get it back with superformance.

This is not me. I am fine with old H&H performance and fine with 22 or 24 inch barrel.

Good question.

The Lott has enough power, and also greater magazine capacity than the Rigby, which is not a small thing, IMHO.

I used to be a big fan of the Lott. I still am, but experience has made me less so.

I'm going to have my Lott rechambered to .450 Rigby, probably as my next project.

I like the increased velocity and energy of the Rigby round.

In my experience, 2,500 fps coupled with a good bullet equates to quicker and more dramatic killing power than that provided by the same bullet at lower velocity.

There's some kind of threshold that is crossed at about 2,400-2,500 fps in a big bore.

The 450 Rigby should be an even better cartridge than the 416 Rigby (which is saying a lot) where the 416 Remington equals it in performance with normal factory loads. I think if the 470 Capstick was ever reintroduced as a factory cartridge in the new Model 70s and the CZ 550s it would take off. Five 470 Capstick cartridges down in a CZ 550 shooting 500g A-Frames or solids at 2400 fps would make a sweet DGR.



Chuck

Dago Red:

I shoot a .450 Dakota which is the .450 Rigby but with a little less taper. When I had AHR build my gun, .450 Dakota brass was much more readily available then .450 Rigby brass so I picked the Dakota. I will tell you that it indeed a splendid cartridge and, IMHO, these two cartridges and the .470 Mbogo may be the best bolt rifle dangerous game cartridges on the market right now but the Dakota and Rigby, being .458, have a much better selection of available bullets. The great thing about all three is that they will fit perfectly into the readily available CZ action with its' .70 bolt face. The Lott is a great cartridge too. It's just that these three take over where the Lott maxes out. My favorite Dakota load is 94 grains of Reloder 15 pushing a 450 grain TSX right at 2400 fps. I had Wayne build my rifle up at around ten pounds and I put a set of Talley QD rings and a Leupold 2.5 Ultralight scope on it. This load is very comfortable to shoot but Jeff makes a point. When you start pushing 500 grain bullets much over 2200 fps, recoil becomes significant. If that's your plan, think about adding a break. Unlike the Lott, .450 Dakota/Rigby pressures are really, really mild and that's what you want for hunting in Africa.

One other point. Most of the Lotts that I see are built on CZ or Ruger magnum length actions. If you are going to use a magnum action, why not take advantage of it and go with the Dakota, Rigby, or Mbogo?

Another reason the 450 rigby aint popular is recoil .. there's mucho more in a 450 at even 2300 then a lott .. and at 2500, most guys can't shoot it...

of course, there's the old WORTHLESS saw about new cartidges and africa ammo availibility (AAA) ... it was SAAMI'ed via the california rigby company in 1995 (sorry, not 1996 as i had previously posted) and only has an 11 year headstart on the Ruger (chuckle)

Same things can be said for the capstick and taylor, right?

I agree with MR .. there's a threshold at 2400 .. and its not always a good one .. higher impact speeds, but you MIGHT defeat a bullets integrity at those kind of speeds .. though that can be loaded around .. solids and barnes X/TSX!!

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:
I suggested this only to keep the comparison between 375Ruger and 375H&H a fair and equal test. Same modern powder in both.

The standard 375H&H velocity vs bbl length was given an unbiased test long ago.

these 2 statements contridict .. either the 375 with nearly 100 years of field performance is ONE thing, or its another .. loading it to w375 weatherby is NOT a 375HH .. certainly the same case, but a modern ruger only 45/70 load AINT a 45/70govt, as its unsafe in original firearms.

quote:

Originally posted by chuck375:
The 450 Rigby should be an even better cartridge than the 416 Rigby (which is saying a lot) where the 416 Remington equals it in performance with normal factory loads. I think if the 470 Capstick was ever reintroduced as a factory cartridge in the new Model 70s and the CZ 550s it would take off. Five 470 Capstick cartridges down in a CZ 550 shooting 500g A-Frames or solids at 2400 fps would make a sweet DGR.



Chuck

Chuck, I took a hard look at the .470 Capstick. One bad thing about it is that while it had a "ghost" shoulder, it has almost no taper. That's not really the best design for a DG cartridge.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Another reason the 450 rigby aint popular is recoil .. there's mucho more in a 450 at even 2300 then a lott .. and at 2500, most guys can't shoot it...

I agree with MR .. there's a threshold at 2400 .. and its not always a good one .. higher impact speeds, but you MIGHT defeat a bullets integrity at those kind of speeds .. though that can be loaded around .. solids and barnes X/TSX!!

Now c'mon Jeff, you were just saying how good the Mbogo was!

Dave,
the Mbogo IS the best bigbore round.. with X/TSX/XLC bullets, like i said!

The Lott is a good cartridge too but it just doesn't give you much more than a .45/70

or a 22LR .. but who needs that overkill?

The main reasons I see for the popularity of the Lott over the 450 Rigby are-
The CZ's have six or seven rounds capacity with the Lott, but only four of the Rigby.
The 450 Rigby might be too much of a good thing for many in the recoil department.
Ammo and brass cost is significantly higher for the Rigby.
Better ammo availability for the Lott in a pinch.

It occurs to me that if you count all of the rifles in .450 Rigby, together with its fellow ballistic triplets in .450 Dakota and .460 Weatherby Mag., you'd probably end up with a fair number.

Ok ,

Here is a question too all you experts out there,

What produces recoil ??? PRESSURE am I correct,

The 450 Rigby operates at the same velocity as the Lott, BUT , BUT AT LOWER PRESSURE !!!!!!!!!!

How the heck can a Lott then kick less than a Rigby

Now fellaskeep your shorts on,

Make it both rifles a ZKK602, 9.5 pounds in weight and 23.5 inch barrels , as the original Rigby specs was

and keep the velocity too what Rigby envisaged

500 gr bullet at 2350 feet per seconds

and the bloody Lott will kick more!!!!!!

How do I know, because I had both, and tested them through and trhough, and Eugene Visagie, Tanzania, and SA PH , also conveted his Lott too Rigby, after he shot my 450 Rigby !!!!!!

kwan
no offense, pressure has little to do with rcoil, and doesn't enter into any known recoil calculators...
a 500 jeffe, 535 at 2350, kicks FAR more than a 458 lott... and a 416 rigby kicks far more than a 416 rem ... plug the loads into a recoil calculator, and see for yourself...

the smallest power charge to get the job done kicks less, mate.. if you can do with with 75gr vs 90, the 75gr load kickes far less

Cost. I would bet if the 450 was in the standard CZ the 416 Rigby would take a big hit in sales as would the 458 Lott.

There are plenty of 460s about but a 460 is not that much dearer than Wby Deluxe in the smaller Wby calibres and the smaller Wbys also have high price brass.

No doubt Jeffe is correct on recoil. However, a 458 Lott loaded flat out at 2300 will belt the scope harder than a reduced load in a 450/460 because the 500 grainer will have more velocity a couple of inches up the barrel. That initial bullet acceleration is the big G force generator.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Cost.

That about sums it up ... fullstop ... nothing more to say.
Cheers...
Con

I have heard and read that the 458 lott is poison to scopes.

the 450 rigby looks cool. I don't see a need for it in my planned battery, but sure as hell would like one some day. everybody needs a 45 bore rifle right? (aside from the 45/70, it doesn't count)

Red

What about the 460G&A that Jacque Lott thought was the best for the big baddies, at least he did in the 1971 G&A . I think it was the proliferation of the 458Win that turned him to the 458 Lott.

Von Gruff.

I'll have mine in a few months. Custom build and will use on tuskless cow and buff. Perfect bolt mate to the 450 3 1/4 NE.


Dutch

I am also in the process of having a 450 Rigby built.

The 450 is a great caliber have one but will tell you kicks like a bastard in a 10 pound gun wish I would of did it 12 lbs

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
The 450 is a great caliber have one but will tell you kicks like a bastard in a 10 pound gun wish I would of did it 12 lbs

Express Rifles:

I have a .450 Dakota and I also had it built up at around 10 pounds. With a 2.5 Leupold Ultalight scope and Talley bases and rings, I would suppose it is around 10.5 pounds or so. I suggest that you try the 450 grain Barnes TSX bullets with Reloder 15. I am loading them to 2400 fps and I think this helps a lot wit the recoil. At this weight and with this load, it is very shootable.

I got a CZ in 450 Dakota. I shoot 500gr Swift A-frames or Barnes old-style single driving band solids in it at 2370fps. It went to Africa with me about eighteen months ago. It kills Cape Buffalo, and I did not have any problems with it or the 1.5-5X Leupold I have had on it since it arrived at my house three years ago. Just buy a CZ in 416 Rigby and a take-off 458 something barrel from Wayne at AHR. Less than $1500 ready to take hunting. Anything, anywhere, anytime...

Rich
DRSS

and NO! it is not for sale

is that cheaper than just buying the 450 Rigby FROM cz?

I think I can make an argument that the 450 rigby is part of a complete battery.

Red

quote:

Originally posted by Dago Red:
is that cheaper than just buying the 450 Rigby FROM cz?

I think I can make an argument that the 450 rigby is part of a complete battery.

Red

They are pretty close to the same price. $1500 plus CZ donor rifle or, CZ factory custom at ~$3K. With a CZ custom, they start with a bare action and build the rifle up to your specs. With AHR/Wayne you get a reworked factory rifle that may or may not start as a bare action after parts are removed.

Both are good options and priced competitively.

To answer your question "Why isn't the 450 Rigby more popular?". I can do that in one word. "RECOIL!"

465H&H

I have a 460 Guns & Ammo built by Les Webernick at Rifles Inc on a pre-64 Supergrade action. It is a hammer on Cape Buffalo, for sure.

Dago Red,

check you PMs.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
To answer your question "Why isn't the 450 Rigby more popular?". I can do that in one word. "RECOIL!"

465H&H

That's the price you pay for PERFORMANCE!

amen, Dave

Pain is the price you pay for .... I have heard that with tattoos also, that pain is the price you pay for art.

Red

you gots to pay to play . even the 45/70 guys know that;.. which is why they make lever guns so light .. so it FEELS like a big bore