Hornady's ballistic table shows a 300 grain 375H&H DGS Superperformance at 2705/4873. That sounds great. I want to try those on buffalo.
But the 300 grain 375H&H DGX is only 2530/4263.
That doesn't sound so great. What is Superperformance about that? Why do they get so much more velocity and evergy with the solid?

Why not ask Hornady? They are very good at answering questions about their products.

pixie dust in the powder...

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by R. G. Howard:
Hornady's ballistic table shows a 300 grain 375H&H DGS Superperformance at 2705/4873. That sounds great. I want to try those on buffalo.
But the 300 grain 375H&H DGX is only 2530/4263.
That doesn't sound so great. What is Superperformance about that? Why do they get so much more velocity and evergy with the solid?

Higher pressure.

All of the above and
compressed "special powder" load in a specially selected "fast" 30-inch barrel and adjustable chronograph, calibrated by appropriate "correction factor:" 100 fps added to actual.
I'll believe it when I read it from my own rifle and chronograph.

Yes, blended and compressed non-canister powders not available to handloaders.

I intend to order some of the DGS and chronograph them in my 375 double and my 375 bolt gun. I just wish they would put some of their pixie dust in the DGX ammo.
Also I will contact Hornady and ask why the DGS has so much more velocity and energy than the DGX. I decided to stick with the 375 for buffalo. I learned the hard way that a bigger caliber doesn't insure better results if you don't hit him in the right place. I knocked one down with a 416 Rigby but he got right up and went for miles. My goal now is to hit one in the right place with a 375 but it would be nice if that 300 grain bullet generated 4800 foot pounds at the muzzle rather than 4300.
Thank you all.

I suspect that the DGX is too soft for good reults at the higher velocities.

465H&H

If I understand the question, and I may not. The answer is the 375H&H dgx, expanding is NOT superformance. Only the 375H&H dgs, solid is superformance. Why one and not the other?

I hope they keep the old load and continue with the new across the board.

Now there is more choices, no extra cost. The key for me is no price increase. Imagine what Norma would charge for this performance!

Do I believe it? Sure, does anyone have data to show otherwise?

I expect we will see some side by side tests of this new powder chemistry in 375 cases of equal volume capacity right here on AR. Old powder vs new. Same case capacity.

Here is the claim regarding the new powder, new chemistry. I believe them:

http://www.hornady.com/assets/...mance-technology.pdf

1. The powder burns faster & more complete. Less muzzle blast. Less velocity loss with shorter barrels. Less recoil from gas blast.

2. No increase in peak pressure.

3. Each load has a custom tailored powder or blend.

4. Less powder needed for equal performance. Lower recoil and more efficient.

I found several side by side ammo tests on the web. Old vs. New in the same gun. All claimed to verify over 100fps gain. One guy measured lower pressure, others claimed improved accuracy.

quote:

I suspect that the DGX is too soft for good reults at the higher velocities.

I though that too, but I looked and see the same bullet in the 375Ruger is pushed to superformance levels.

Don't confuse the new Superformance ammo with their previous light/heavy mag line. The heavy mag 375 WAS compressed powder with higher pressure and increased recoil.

The new stuff are blended powders to provide faster velocity without increased charges (some are actually "light" charges as far as case capacity goes) pressure or recoil.

The only bad review I have seen on the stuff was from I believe a 95gr sst .243 Win load, clocking in almost 200fps slower then claimed. However there are reviews of spot on performance with the numbers published, with average length barrels not super long fast twist pressure barrels.

Some of the loads do nothing impressive at all, such as the 257 Bob, still falls short of some +p loads. Some are pretty quick considering its not a "hot" load. No idea why the DGX H&H is basically average but the DGS is faster, since like previously mentioned, the Ruger throws it faster so its not about reliable expansion. Best guess is to tailor back the H&H loads to not outrun the 375 Ruger which is their baby.

Not sure what the point is of hot rod 375 H&H's. Why not just buy a Weatherby?

The only way to get higher velocities is higher peak and/or average pressures. There ain't no pixie dust.

Only on forums can you defy the laws of physics.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The only way to get higher velocities is higher peak and/or average pressures. There ain't no pixie dust.

Oh, btw, I am back home from a long business trip, and I see lots of dis/mis information, again.

I've had to be nice to the slow for nearly the last 10 days ...

in 1912, they didn't HAVE cool modern powders, like win760 -- which is COMMON in superperformance loads.

the so-called pixie dust powders are in the light mag and heavy mags -- advertised sa such. Do you hear that, Richard? Call Mitch and talk to him, it will allay your FEARS -- Every walking talking monkey says their 375HH loads go faster than 2500fps with modern powders .. get over it

read my lips (this always catches the neophyts) MAX (MORE) PRESSURE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VELOCITY.

Otherwise we could load up 20gr of bullseye, resulting in 62,500 PSI (saami for the "low" pressure 375 hh) and get the same vels .. in fact, EVERYONE knows MAX pressure doesn't do SQUAT ...

Its area under the curve, william, generally referred to as WORK, don't try to play silly games of mixing peak and average .. those have NO relationship .. 50K PSI to the end of the barrel results in faster vls than 120Kpsi for 1" .. in fact, 120Kpsi results in ZERO MV, as it blows up the @#$@#$@#$ barrel ...

ALL, repeat, ALL factory ammo is loaded to LESS than SAAMI pek/max pressure ... otherwise pesons would sue ammo makers out of existence .. as it would BLOW UP guns.

HELLO, gentlemen .. Slower powder in 24" barrels is what is listed ...

Of course, internet ninjas, without legal recourse, feel free to spout off whatever enters their minds.

Prove it!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Prove it!

which? So, i'll assume its the max pressure means nothing comment and it's work, not max pressure, that determines velocity, of those variables?

but, William, aren't you one of the people that can get a 416 taylor to go as fast as a 416 rem? hmm, smaller case in the taylor, and the 416 rem is loaded to 62,500psi .. what's that say about your loading practice? OH-- you use slower powders, as only a fool would load way past 65000 PSI, RIGHT?

there's 2 ways to do it ... since you ask, one way is to load up 375hh cases with say 3031, then rel 19, then bluedot, measure pressures, and velocities ,... th later being truely dangerous, as pressures can exceed 120K and blow up the gun before the bullet can (or will) leave the barrel.

The other way is to be rational
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/wint.html


So, william, in issuing challenges, could you be more specific? If we must field test the various powders, YOU may have the honors of the 120K psi loads.. in YOUR gun .. i'll watch from behind a blast screen

What's so "super performance" about this ammo? If you want more velocity buy a bigger cartridge. IMO this need for speed (at the probable cost of chamber pressure???) seems unecessary. Personally I handload to try to improve accuracy not velocity.

If their "super performance" ammo offered consistent 1/2 MOA accuracy I would be impressed. Hornady makes good products but I think their development efforts could be better spent elsewhere. But, I suppose too speed sells.

Jeffe,

If you look at that link to the Hornady article you can see that the pressures increase as the velocities increase.

Their claim to fame is less recoil, which I am guessing is accomplished by using a smaller powder mass. So then they must be using a higher energy powder, per unit mass, so that they get the higher pressures. But the powder is still slow burning so as to act like the other cartridges, where the pressures are still relatively high when the bullet reaches the end of the barrel.

They are indeed correct about most cartridges having still burning powder after the bullet exists. When I was trying to ding a buff once in near dark, the fireball shooting out the end of the barrel was impressive.

Hence, I'm guessing that this powder was developed, MAYBE, for the military so that the fireball was reduced or eliminated. It would seem like a good idea if I were in the trenches.

Assuming I'm not full of beans, I hope this helps.

I think a few people have confused the point of this ammo.

Not sure who said what as I'm posting from my phone, sorry.

Why hot rod a 375 H&H, just get a Weatherby?
* weatherby costs more, rifle and ammo. It also has more recoil. The superformance is not "hot rodded" the way most people think. Gotta remember to think outside of current reloading "laws" when scientists are at work with special blends and multiple burn speed powders. The blended powders produce no to very minor additional recoil increase.

If you want more velocity, get a bigger case
*again, higher costs and increased recoil. In general with the Superformance you really are getting a free lunch. A small to medium increase in velocity, and there for energy, without additional costs of money, recoil or gun weight in the case of larger cartridges, or lost magazine capacity.

Also, take a look at midway and compare in any caliber, the cost of standard ammo (winchester power points, federal fusion, remington core-lokt) look at the price of each companies premium line up, then look at the cost of superformance. Its not astronomically priced unobtainable for the average shooter ammo. Usually its the same price as basic ammo, or between basic and premium loads, and its still offering 2 good bullet choices.

I just think some people are looking at it in a different way then Hornady is pitching it. Fair price, increased performance, decent bullets, no increased recoil or super high pressures above what handloaders are doing now. Not saying the 375 H&H specifically, but in all honesty, who wouldn't want an extra 150-200fps if it "cost" nothing? May not be much help, but its really not going to hurt either. Hornady also tends to make pretty consistent and accurate ammo especially for the price. I mean you can about get 2 boxes of superformance for every 1 box of federal premium, weatherby or nosler custom.

There will be reduced recoil for the small decrease in powder mass but there will be increased recoil due to the increased bullet velocity.

For the same bullet weights and same velocities, my guess is you wouldn't notice much decrease in recoil by the decrease in the powder, unless there is a significant decrease in powder weight.

You ain't getting anything for free!

Well of the 100 or so private reviews I have read about the ammo, I can recall only ONE who said the recoil was increased, but just barely noticeable.

I read on AR regularly such statements as the 500 NE doesn't kick anymore than a 30-06. I wonder if that's true?

quote:

I read on AR regularly such statements as the 500 NE doesn't kick anymore than a 30-06. I wonder if that's true?

I bet it depends upon how much one has had to drink!

Will you should know better than to argue rocket science on Accurate reloading, it is a pointless endeavour.

If these cartridges use a special powder to achieve higher velocities then it will only be a matter of time before we see it used in nearly all cartridges. I've already considered taking some apart and trying the powder in other cartridges.

I give up. Take your disinformation and enjoy it. If YOU can't make a 375hh go faster than 100 year old powders and loads, then you need to give up reloading. It's a silly argument that you can't do better, when all the luddites demand that the hh can do better. Circular
Arguments are silly.

Jeff,

With modern powders I have no doubt that one can beat the old cordite loads for the 375 H&H while maintaining the same (nearly the same) peak pressure. This is also true for the old military 30-06 loads (although the powder is now IMR4895 instead of cordite).

Why do you get yourself so worked up?

Speculations about "the powder"(or powders)-

triple base

increased surface area

new coating of some form


Any other ideas?

quote:

What's so "super performance" about this ammo? If you want more velocity buy a bigger cartridge. IMO this need for speed (at the probable cost of chamber pressure???) seems unecessary. Personally I handload to try to improve accuracy not velocity.

Yes ...

It is all about picking the bullet of your choice and finding your rifle's sweetspot.
100 fps extra won't do you any good at practical hunting ranges.

Warrior

Jeffeosso

quote:

If YOU can't make a 375hh go faster than 100 year old powders and loads, then you need to give up reloading.

Glad I read that, I was worried when my M70 was making 2605 fps on Hogdon's minimum load of 77grs of H4350. Again that was the minimum start load I stopped right there.

Greenjoy,
don't be surprised, its easy to do!

Jeffe...you CAN'T change human nature...most humans DON'T want to or CAN'T change...teach old dogs new tricks...OR learn-up those that don't want to learn or see new things happen...and many DON't want to come into the 21st century...it just AIN'T in the cards.

You know the old saw...Don't try to teach pigs to sing...all it does is hurt your ears and disturbs the pigs feeding.

I swear most people would whine if they got hung with a new rope.

Luck

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Not sure what the point is of hot rod 375 H&H's. Why not just buy a Weatherby?

The only way to get higher velocities is higher peak and/or average pressures. There ain't no pixie dust.

Only on forums can you defy the laws of physics.

Can't you increase the work (velocity) by applying the same peak pressure over a longer period of time?

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Not sure what the point is of hot rod 375 H&H's. Why not just buy a Weatherby?

The only way to get higher velocities is higher peak and/or average pressures. There ain't no pixie dust.

Only on forums can you defy the laws of physics.

Can't you increase the work (velocity) by applying the same peak pressure over a longer period of time?

That's pretty much what Hornady does, pretty much like anyone does, slower burning powder giving higher velocity because the pressure is maintained at a high level for a longer period.

IF YOU LOOK at Hornady's data, the pressure is higher and that is why the velocity is higher.

It is kinda spooky. Even when the data is quite clear, some seem not to see it or believe it. I hope those types are not sitting in my jury!

Another interesting thing about the Hornady Super performance is that they pitch you can use it in Semi Auto's where as the Hornady heavy Mag and Federals HE ammo they say it is a no no.

Will, it might just be early, but sometimes you get really close to the right answer, then sell past yes....

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Not sure what the point is of hot rod 375 H&H's. Why not just buy a Weatherby?

weatherby did it by max pressure first

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

The only way to get higher velocities is higher peak and/or average pressures. There ain't no pixie dust.

these are TWO ways, bill .. and very different, with very different potential results

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

Only on forums can you defy the laws of physics.

Can't you increase the work (velocity) by applying the same peak pressure over a longer period of time?

That's pretty much what Hornady does, pretty much like anyone does, slower burning powder giving higher velocity because the pressure is maintained at a high level for a longer period.

and here's where you should have ceased typing

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

IF YOU LOOK at Hornady's data, the pressure is higher and that is why the velocity is higher.

NO! .. the pressure is NOT higher, william, the duration is longer, resulting in more work

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

It is kinda spooky. Even when the data is quite clear,

yes, it is spooky--- hornady is a saami founding member, and they aren't selling + p loading .. seriously, this reflects poorly on reading skills

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

some seem not to see it or believe it. I hope those types are not sitting in my jury!

I'd much rather of logical adults on mine, than persons that nearly but not quite get it...

Please do not come if called for jury duty!

I get anywhere from 2701 to 2708 from the Hornady Heavy magnum loads in my .375 Winchester stainless synthetic classic rifle with 24 inch barrel. This is with the 300 grain loads and through my Oehler chrono. These are supposed to be used for dangerous game as per Hornady but a 300 grain bullet at that velocity for dangerous game is ridiculous. That is why I do not use them. I use nothing but Federal premium ammunition with 300 grain TSX bullets at 2470 fps now. These loads are incredible and penetrate everything. Give them a try as I feel you will like them. Brown bear, moose and bison do not like them as they tend to fall down within about 15 feet from where shot.

Thanks,

jfm

Wait...where's shootaway? He could explain the matters of pressure / velocity in modern cartridges easily.

[quote]That is why I do not use them. I use nothing but Federal premium ammunition with 300 grain TSX bullets at 2470 fps now.[/quote

Modest velocity, tough expanding bullet = super results.
JFM, you are a convert - one convinced man is already a majority.


Warrior

More velocity, tough expanding bullet = even better results.

Warrior, you are a very intelligent man. Especially for agreeing with me!
Of course I'm kidding, however, the penetration I'm getting with those factory loads are just unbelievable. Large game animals just fall down dead with no fight left in them at all. Penetration is just ridiculous. I've never seen anything like it in anything I've ever shot.
Anyone who believes that high velocity is good for dangerous game is either a human/alien hybrid or they know nothing about penetration on game animals. That is to say, except Saeed, whom is God as far as I'm concerned.

Thanks,

jfm