Wow, I think I am really starting my first thread here! Yes, I accept pats on the back thank you very much!

Now my question and subject of this discussion.

I have a several rifles chambered in .500 caliber--.500 not .510. Of course the normal commercial bullets are available, but most of those bullets cannot withstand the velocities reached with some of my cartridges. Therefore we have been making and designing some new bullets CNC that will hold together. They are fantastic, started with 380 gr copper hollow point bullets and I could run them to 2300-2400 fps before the petals would start to break off. I wanted a heavier bullet, so added 1/10th inch to the base, now it is 426 grs. I could run this to 2250 fps, but at impact velocities of 2150 fps the petals would start to shear off.

Yes this is in my test medium of wet print and magazines, and the exact same thing would happen in animal tissue.

Once again I wanted a bit heavier bullet, my theory being that I could run the bullet at 2150 fps, coming in at 470 grs this is nearly exactly what some of my first loads would chrono. In tests the petals start to shear at 2100 fps, I conclude that the extra mass behind the bullet is pushing it harder causing this. Same base material, same everything, just more mass with the 470.

Now my thoughts are very confused on this matter. In past years I would have called this a failure! Jacket/Core separates-failure--petals breaking off--failure! But I see a strange thing happening and that is a tremendous increase in penetration, and it is straight line penetration, lot's of damage up front too! So I am not so sure this is a failure? I am a penetration freak, so this has me in a state of confusion right now.

My experience with the bullet is limited, 1 cape buffalo with the bullet as the first shot, followed by solids. It lost two petals, but the buffalo was dead on his feet. Penetration was adequate, even though this was the 426 gr version and light for caliber for my tastes.

I for real do not have an opinion on this, and that is rare for me. I am not asking how to fix the issue, if it needs fixing, just what is your opinion on the matter, and what if any experience you might have in this arena?

Petals breaking off--good or not good or does not matter?

Michael

Maybe I am over simplifying it but the petals are not likely to come off until some level of penetration is achieved (dependent on softness of the metal and impact velocity) When the petals expand to some level they meat enough resistance to cause the petals to shear off. When that happens resistance decreases and the bullet loses velocity slower leading to more penetration. The more resistance the less penetration. Congratulations! You just reinvented the Nosler Partition.

And that ain't bad!

465H&H

I will just repeat what I wrote in another thread earlier:
Interesting subject. All seem to be so concerned about the petals not breaking off. But my experience with some 300 grs expanding monos in my 416 wby at 3200 f/s tell me some advantages - as enormous penetration for a exp bullet (after petals are broken off it leaves a FN solid). Besides the petals was often recovered on the opposite side skin on even buffalo bulls (while the remaining flat nose shanks excited) meaning that the petals did a lot of damage in "loose flight"..

Well,I am interested in this as I am looking for the Perfect" Expanding bullet for my lil 458 Lott...Barnes X bullets let me down in my 500 Jeffery last Fall on a Brown Bear(may have been a bad run as they didnt expand)..One fast Copper(?)of 450-500 grs at 22-2400fps would do what I need it to do...Just such a large choice out there now (Swift,North Fork,Barnes and some customs?) Whose bullets seem to be doing best now? If I had my choice,a expanding copper with a blunt nose...These all Brass expanders are nice... http://www.lehighbullets.com/proddetail.asp?prod=458%2D200

michael458,
Duncan MacPherson, Bullet Penetration, made the profound statement that "sectional density drives expansion." I had never thought of it that way, until reading his words. I had previously thought only in terms of impact velocity. Of course both are involved, and your observations support that. The heavier bullet with the same hollowpoint will expand more violently than the lighter/shorter bullet at same velocity, with same caliber and nose factors.

I have done Water Bucket Train (WBT) tests and live game shooting with various monometals looking for speed at which they open and speed at which they start to lose petals and speed at which they completely shed them all.

My opinion is that GSC are most reliable for low velocity opening at 1600 fps and a nice gradual peel back with increasing velocity, maintaining petals to about 2600, then converting to a denuded FN solid in a straight line. And that is a great thing. The three petals of a GSC HV are lethal secondary missiles, for sure.

Of course the velocity bracket will vary with bullet weight and caliber, as michael458 has shown. The 1600 to 2600 fps bracket refers to a .395-caliber/340-grain HV, which is the ultimate do-all, and should be considered the average bracket for all useful bullets combined.

No time now for pics and specifics of velocity, caliber and make, but I have more ... including the wondrous .395/310-grain S&H VeloHEXploding brass bullet which establishes a new standard in monometal death ray.

465 H&H

Simple is good sometimes, and the comparison to the Partition is not bad. All of what you say is correct.

Buffalo

With the 416 and velocity of 3200 fps I am sure the petals are doing more damage than what mine are at a meager 2100-2400 fps depending on bullet weight. At one time I was concerned about petals breaking--but for some of the wrong reasons.

Normal everyday thinking is that the more weight an expanding bullet loses, the less penetration one gets. Conventional thinking, copper jacket lead core bullets. But this is "outside" the box as I see it-the more petals lost, the deeper the penetration, like 465 says because of LESS resistance. Those petals act like brakes-slowing the bullet down--petals shear and set the bullet free to penetrate. The question that concerns me is the transfer of trauma and damage to tissue before and during those petals shearing off?

Safarikid

As a matter of note my bullets are made by David Fricke, with connection to JD Jones. David is Lehigh Bullets. Davids main business is medical instruments, but David is a shooter too. Strong ties with JD and he is making lots of bullets these days. JD designed the 416 Barret for Barrett, and the bullet design. David makes the bullets for the 416 Barrett, just got a nice order for 400'000 of them! Makes my little 500 each orders look puny!

David sure makes a fine bullet, all my solids in .500 caliber, and the hollow points we are discussing currently. Consistent-exact-EXTREMELY ACCURATE- and if it were not for these bullets my .500 caliber rifles would be swimming in the toilet! These bullets make my rifles do what they do!

For 458 Lott I like the 500 Swift A frame for buffs and these days either a 400 Swift or maybe a 350 Barnes for thin skinned critters. My 400 Swifts have not been shooting that great of late???

I have played with brass hollow points--weight is down a bit and they are far more brittle with petals coming off quick. Of course penetration is extreme.

I think much of what we are discussing depends on a particular mission for the bullet too. Thin skinned dangerous-lion/bear, buffalo first shots-and normal thin skinned game.

I am coming to think that if the petals stay on fine, big bullet expands to over an inch, six blades sawing away at things, penetration is good for expanding bullets able to get to vitals. If the petals break, so what, still does damage up front, maybe get some secondary damage from flying petals, and the remaining slug just keeps on going! Can it be possible that either way is good? Can we have our cake and eat it too?

It is beginning to look that way.

Michael

RIP
"Sectional Density drives Expansion" I never thought of it either until it dawned on me that was exactly what was happening with the increase of weight from 380 to 426 and then to 470 grs. Exactly the same material-more mass behind the blades!

I only had a small sample of the orginal 380 gr bullet--they were playing with 500 S&W. Recently I ordered 500 of these to test and use in one of my smaller 50s. So I have 380--426--and 470 to work with. I will be using a 470 gr one on brown bear in a few weeks (If I see any).

One day I am going to ask you just what is a 395 and what does it do.

Have you used this on critters with these bullets?

Michael

Is it sd or Mass? It seems to me it is the added mass that causes the quicker shedding of the petals. Sd is simply a way to measure mass versus bullet diameter.

465H&H

465
I am not for sure there is a difference in the terms we are speaking. It of course is the mass that is behind the petals that is increased, so I lean towards "mass", and as you state SD is a way to measure mass vs diameter. So I think 100% correct would be mass in this situation since petals start to shear at lower velocity as I add mass behind the petals. Something like that anyway.
M

I don't want the petals to come off, I prefer the frontal part of the bullet to be much larger than the original bullet and hope it exits but if not I want it in one piece on the off side skin looking like a buzz saw..If I wanted a flat nose solid then that is what I would use and I do from time to time and I also use them in coordination with each other such as a Woodleigh on top, followed by GS Custom FN solids..That is since Northfork went out of business and quite makeing the wonder do all bullet the cup point which to my mind was the greatest advance in bullet making since sliced white bread...

I agree with Ray. A solid copper cup point bullet will provide expansion and still deliver Maximum penetration. I think thats the optimum formula for Buff or ELE.-Rob

According to Mike Brady, the cup points penetrated 20% less than the flat noses. I have a couple of hundred, but I've never used them on game.

If I get a chance, I will load some cup points and shoot a tuskless with one in October. I think it would be a fine bullet for tuskless, probably offering plenty of penetration and more knock down effect. But no way for a bull.

BTW, just for the record, Mike strongly advises everyone not to use cup points for elephants.

JPK

I have shot a giraffe with NF Cup Point Solids. I recovered only one, and it had flared slightly at the nose.

When I use a soft point on a cape buff I DO NOT want it to give complete penetration on a broadside shot.

In my 450 No2, with 480 Woodleigh Softs, and with 500 Swift A Frames, and in my 450/400 3 1/4" with 400gr Wodleigh Softs, broadside shots have remained inside the buff.

With my 9,3x74R and a 286 Woodleigh Soft, on a frontal shot on a cape buff, penetration indicated that it might not have given complete penetration either.

This performance, while giving more than adequate penetration for a soft, eleminates the worry of wounding a second animal on a pass through.

I used this to my advantage on the last cape buff I shot with my 450/400, reloading with only Woodleigh softs, as I could see a large herd in the background.

Hi Ray
I tend to agree on this for the most part, especially on buffalo. On thin skinned, both dangerous and other, I am not so sure it makes much difference??? However, this is why I kept increasing the weight and lowering velocity to keep the petals on, but it backfired on me a little because of the extra mass pushing and putting stress on the petals. Currently running the 470 gr bullet at 2160 fps or so unless I am inside 10 yds the petals stay intact.

Your prescription of Woodleigh on top followed by solids is an excellent load out and I have used the same load out in my 458 Lott on occasion for buffalo, only with Barnes solids. I have also used 500 Swifts and Barnes Solids as a load out too with great success.

Very little experience with NorthFork and it is sad to hear that Mike is no longer in the business, what bullets I tried in 458 and 416 have been near to perfect! I have not used them in the field sorry to say.
Michael

MICHAEL
why dont you make your expanding proj out of the same compsition as nosler makes there e tips....they definatley dont lose there petals, even at point blank range
Daniel

M98

Well, I don't know! First I don't make the bullets at all. David Fricke makes the bullets, for me thru JD at SSK. So I don't have a good answer for you, JD and I discussed this at length many times. First I think all issues would be solved if the bullets were to be annealed--I think-and this is what I have been told. I am not a metals specialist by any stretch, but it makes good sense. But as I understand a oven, or whatever the thing is, that would do this and give even results across the board is expensive and maybe hard to justify! Now all this is out of my hands, so I am just relating it to you.

Now David makes a very very fine bullet--lord they are beautiful, well cut, extremely accurate in all my .500 bores, very very excellent, and I have more interest in the solids he makes for me. However, the big hollow point "ROUND NOSE" bullet feeds great, 6 big nasty petals, it really makes a fine thin skinned critter bullet,once you find the velocity that a particular weight works well with. Currently I am working with a 426 and a 470 gr bullet. I stated early in this thread I had not used the 470 yet, but I forgot about 2 wildebeast and an oryx in July! I recovered two perfect bullets from a frontal shot on wildebeast, and a rear raking shot on oryx-gemsbok. They looked great, but ranges were about 50 yds or so. Starting velocity at 2160 fps.

So to answer I am not sure whether it is the material, or the annealing process that would solve any issues of breaking petals.
Thanks--and good question
Michael

michael458...I was thinking of getting some of them,esp since Northfork is done..Do you have any pics of the recovered rounds?Dave should also post some of them on his site..All brass is neat,yet it expands?!!....He emailed me ahwile back saying they do go a little deeper than the all coppers,and also do a lil more damage due to the brass petals toughness...

SafariKid
Yes, I have some pics, or at least can take some no problem. I will try and do that Monday if I can figure out how to get them on here--maybe someone wants to give me a hint as to how to post a photo?

ALso take note--I am using all copper--not brass. The brass petals are very brittle and break early during penetration-both animal and medium. The copper when stressed breaks too--but deeper into pentration. The brass does penetrate deeper as it looses petals very early on. Damage-more??? Hard to say! That is still out for me right now?

Anyone can help with the photo thing????
Thanks
Michael

Michael,

I'd be happy to post your pics.

465h&H

Also, for how to post photos, the is a dedicated sticky thread entitled "How to Post Photographs" on the "Hunting Reports - Africa" board the second down from the "African Hunting" board. Its the second thread down in that board.

JPK

If I have done this correctly what you see on the far left is a 470 gr .500 Copper Hollow point, in the middle is an expanded bullet in wet print impact at 21 yds and MV at 2160 fps, on the right is a bullet recoverd from a wildebeast in July frontal chest shot at around 75 yds or so.
Michael

Well as it appears I did not do it correctly!/Users/user/Desktop/Michael OS 10 Folder/Photos to Process/101MSDCF/DSC00999.JPG

And once again it appears that did not work either!

OK I am on it, will keep trying!

OK it seems through the link above you may be able to see the bullets--I can from this side anyway! As for the photo loading in the post, I don't have a clue???
Michael

michael,click on your photo,then on properties.Select the one that says message boards,then copy the original one exactly as you see it there,after clicking on URL,then click on Post Now.

Whoa--Holy cow I did it--Not sure exactly how I did it! Let me try again!

Well now, seems I might have it now, I think! Same bullets above as first photo, just a look from the top!
Michael

OK busted again? Photos appeared on the post, then they are now gone? I am lost?
Michael

It can be apain sometimes! Email them to me if you like and I can give it a try! Daqridude@aol.com

Huh! Your pic just popped up?! Anyway,those look real gooood!

These look great...for the record,who makes these,cost and what weights are these and what is available?

Safarikid

Thanks for getting them on. I followed all the instructions and they came up-then they were gone-so I am not sure what the deal is????

Anyway, made by Leighigh bullets, David Fricke. These are JD designs, these are .500 diameter for my 50 B&M series--I have a 380 gr (mainly for the Super Short) a 426 gr and a 470 gr. What you see is the 470 gr version-the one in the middle is in wet print at 21 yd impact-the one on the right is wildebeast at 75 yds. Muzzle velocity is 2160 fps. Somewhere in the neighborhood of $2 each depending upon materials that week!

Whatever you can design David can make! I have been working mostly with the solids.

Michael

I would like to hear some comments on these bullets, especially the one with the cuts in the meplat.

After some comments I will tell you what it does.

If I get the photos loaded!
Michael

Michael458,

You need to load the photos on a host like photobucket first. Did you try this? Without doing that I've ended up with blanks or busted photos. Once you get the hang of it its a no brainer. Hope this helps.

Your bullets look good. Forbiden in a double though.

JPK

I have the photos on image event. Sometimes they post, then disappear. I tried photobucket and nothing uploads? Of course I was doing the tryout thing, not the payout thing! Maybe it makes a difference?

I also changed the settings over on image event (which uploads and works perfect-except posting) so maybe I need to pay up?

This morning I am able to open image in another window? Maybe try that?
Michael