Thinking about using the .458 420 grain CEB Non-Con in a .458 Lott for lion. Is the Non-Con too hard, too soft? Is the frangible nature of the bullet a plus, a minus? Thanks.

Mike,

The frangible nature of the non-cons is a big plus when dealing with thin skinned dangerous game, especially cats.

I don't have the African experience of some of the guys here, but, as a game warden, I did/do have considerable experience with mountain lions, particularly big Toms...a superior expanding bullet is just what you want when dealing with big cats, like a non con or a Barnes TSX.

Respects,

Phill

The Nosler .458 Protected Point designed for the 45-70 might meet your needs. Just keep the MV at or below 2200 fps and it expands very well and penetrates fine. My .45-90 with such loads took out a big tom leopard a few years ago with one shot - the cat never moved, DRT. Loaded round on right in picture below.


If you need further convincing, I may be able to locate the link to the story and pictures of the cat and the recovered expanded bullet.It shot through but was recovered from sand behind the cat.

Mike,

Based on my only cat experience and Non-Cons - a leopard with the 375 Flanged - it punched through and left the heart and lungs a puree.

Didn't ask to find the shed petals - I assume they were somewhere in the mix, but they apparently did the job as designed.

Mike, my experience with lion have both been with TSX. Somewhere in the terminal bullet thread, Michael458 addressed the Non-Con specifically for use on lion in comparison to the A-Square Lion Load bullet. I'm not sure what page that discussion is on but it was about 3 months ago IIRC. Maybe he will come on here with some insight.

Here you go Mike. My mistake as it wasn't on the Terminal Thread. Looks like he was talking about the "Carnivore" version of the Non-Con. His post is about 1/2 way down.


http://forums.accuratereloadin...621024661#3621024661

Thanks gents. Is the Carnivore the same as the Non-Con?

The lighter brass hollow points be it a non con or Raptor driven faster will create a bigger "splash" as it were. You can see this feom michaels tests. Penetration is awesome so that's not the issue. Having seven jagged sharp projectiles from one of these bullets blowing up inside a big cat will take away all it's nine lives at once. Not sure what weights the Raptors in 458 will come out to be but you can add the tip to the Non Con and single load it to keep velocity high. These bullets love velocity. I hope you use them with great success.

Mike,

The 420 BBW#13 NonCon WILL, turn a lion INSIDE OUT, and then some. Frangible--Yes, 6 blades shear off at 1.5-2 inches inside the body cavity, anything close to 4 inches of penetration is totally SHREDDED to pieces. As penetration increases the blades move away from center wound channel and start cutting-slicing their way through tissues, vitals, vessels and anything that gets in their way until they stop. All the while, the .458 broken beer bottle nose of the remaining bullet continues to penetrate, and unless you shoot your lion dead square in the chest, or up the ass, you will not recover the remaining bullet. Blades will be found in massive goo left behind.

Unlike the old A-Square lion load, you keep and increase penetration with a NonCon. I used this same bullet on a couple of buffalo in June, and a croc. Results are devastating to say the least.

White Hunter--Any NonCon transfers an incredible amount of trauma, far more than any conventional, and today a Barnes TSX is conventional.

crshelton

A nosler anything is no comparison to a NonCon and what it can do. You need to try some of the lighter weight .458 NonCons in your 45/70 and 45/90, it will enhance them far beyond anything you have ever witnessed.

Todd

I dropped the Carnivore from the BBW#13 Line. With the coming of the new Raptor, and having trouble getting the bigger longer blades to shear at the point I wanted them to shear, we decided to drop the Carnivore in favor of the more Terminally Reliable Raptor. Light for caliber Raptors run at higher velocity will turn the cats inside out, skin'em, and stack'em up all at the same time.



Mike--The Carnivore was a great idea I was kicking around and working with. It is a basic BBW#13 NonCon with a "Double Depth" cavity of .800 inches deep. Standard BBW#13 is .400. Now it was my theory at the time that those big long blades would shear and be absolutely devastating on cats and bears, and leaving a smaller remaining bullet to continue on it's path. The theory is correct, and it would do exactly that, but the problem we ran into was an Even and Consistent shearing of those longer and heavier blades. .800 deep goes well into the full caliber of the bullet, at the base where the blades are too thick to give a consistent shear effect. We were just to the point of doing some undercuts in the bullet at the depth of .800 inches or bottom of the cavity to test and achieve a consistent shear, when the Raptor appeared on the drawing boards. I felt like our time and efforts would be better spent to drop the Carnivore, concentrate on the Raptor, and the higher velocity it can produce to be THE Cat and bear bullet of the future for our big bores.

The problem I had with this uneven and inconsistent shear was penetration, and predicting that penetration in a straight line. Large heavy chunks of bullet would shear from one side and cause the bullet to go unstable and not able to predict exactly where things would end up.

In June my only animal tissue test was on a Waterbuck with my 500 MDM, a deep Cavity Carnivore at 106 yds. It did the job, waterbuck hit the dirt and tried to get back up, problem he had was that the bullet had entered left side and exited in two peices 4 inches apart on the right side shoulder and in front of the shoulder. A spout of blood coming out steady the size of my thumb, and the shoulder broken as well. Inside was a goo mess with the lungs in several pieces, one piece as big as my fist or bigger. It really was incredible to see the reactions, along with the destruction of everything inside. Problem is, I never quite figured out the exits as compared with the entrance? Something was just not quite right. It works, and would work incredibly well, but I am going in favor of the Raptor right now, as the standard BBW#13 depth of .400 is well proven and way the hell beyond adequate and going deep into stopping anything on the planet that gets in its way.

If I were leaving today for lion with 458 Lott I would look pretty serious at both the 370 BBW#13 NonCon (band designed for levers) and the 420 BBW#13 NonCon. Either would do nice. Recently I ran some loads of the 420 BBW#13 NonCon with TAC, IMR 8208, and RL 15, all were in the 2425 to 2465 fps range. This can probably be improved upon some as I only tried one load in each powder. However, these are NOT STARTING loads either. Running either of these bullets at 2400-2550 fps or so, no lion in the world that ever existed can hold up to one! And, in my opinion, no bullet can come close to the destructive trauma these can produce, and without ever sacrificing any penetration at all, and in fact give superior penetration to any conventional in caliber.

Now that is saying a lot, and I have not shot lions with these, but I have shot three lions with conventionals, and I will take the NonCon and never look back again.

Michael

Thanks for the feedback. I will try and chrono the load in the next couple of weeks and report back. My guess is that it is around 2300-2400 fps. The load is 81 grains of H-335 with a F215M primer.

Michael,

So what is the difference between the Non-Con and Raptor? The Raptor can be fired as a solid or non-con? Is that correct. It has different placement of the driving bands to facilitate shooting either direction first? Is there a difference in the cavity depth?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Thanks for the feedback. I will try and chrono the load in the next couple of weeks and report back. My guess is that it is around 2300-2400 fps. The load is 81 grains of H-335 with a F215M primer.

My pleasure, no thanks needed. Do let us know what you come up with on that load. And, if you need specs on the loads I mentioned go here and it's in the Dec News and Events. Download the pdf document 458 Lott load data.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...m/News---Events.html

quote:

Michael,

So what is the difference between the Non-Con and Raptor? The Raptor can be fired as a solid or non-con? Is that correct. It has different placement of the driving bands to facilitate shooting either direction first? Is there a difference in the cavity depth?

Todd

Correct, ESP Raptor can be loaded either end, solid or standard BBW#13 NonCon. Driving bands are placed in such a way that if loaded with the NonCon side up, then you can add the Talon Tip increasing BC by 2-3 times, and fit in the magazine. Cavity depth is standard .400. Terminals are never an issue with the Raptors, in the small bores the challenge has been stability. We won't have that issue at all in the Big Bore Raptors! In 416 thru .510 the Raptors will be devastating on lions, leopards and bears. I am talking turn'em inside out devastating.

Raptors should work pretty good in doubles too! They are going to be very low pressure and very low barrel strain, just FYI. Bet on them getting tested for that as well at some point.

Sam is taking a Big Heavy Raptor and playing with it in .510 in the 500 Nitro, it weighs 525 gr or so as I recall, I have some of them. Different purpose however, not a light for caliber Raptor. We did a preliminary test with the solid end and it did great at Nitro velocity.

Opps, sorry off track a bit and rambling on.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Mike,

The 420 BBW#13 NonCon WILL, turn a lion INSIDE OUT, and then some. Frangible--Yes, 6 blades shear off at 1.5-2 inches inside the body cavity, anything close to 4 inches of penetration is totally SHREDDED to pieces. As penetration increases the blades move away from center wound channel and start cutting-slicing their way through tissues, vitals, vessels and anything that gets in their way until they stop. All the while, the .458 broken beer bottle nose of the remaining bullet continues to penetrate, and unless you shoot your lion dead square in the chest, or up the ass, you will not recover the remaining bullet. Blades will be found in massive goo left behind.

Unlike the old A-Square lion load, you keep and increase penetration with a NonCon. I used this same bullet on a couple of buffalo in June, and a croc. Results are devastating to say the least.

White Hunter--Any NonCon transfers an incredible amount of trauma, far more than any conventional, and today a Barnes TSX is conventional.

crshelton

A nosler anything is no comparison to a NonCon and what it can do. You need to try some of the lighter weight .458 NonCons in your 45/70 and 45/90, it will enhance them far beyond anything you have ever witnessed.

Todd

I dropped the Carnivore from the BBW#13 Line. With the coming of the new Raptor, and having trouble getting the bigger longer blades to shear at the point I wanted them to shear, we decided to drop the Carnivore in favor of the more Terminally Reliable Raptor. Light for caliber Raptors run at higher velocity will turn the cats inside out, skin'em, and stack'em up all at the same time.



Mike--The Carnivore was a great idea I was kicking around and working with. It is a basic BBW#13 NonCon with a "Double Depth" cavity of .800 inches deep. Standard BBW#13 is .400. Now it was my theory at the time that those big long blades would shear and be absolutely devastating on cats and bears, and leaving a smaller remaining bullet to continue on it's path. The theory is correct, and it would do exactly that, but the problem we ran into was an Even and Consistent shearing of those longer and heavier blades. .800 deep goes well into the full caliber of the bullet, at the base where the blades are too thick to give a consistent shear effect. We were just to the point of doing some undercuts in the bullet at the depth of .800 inches or bottom of the cavity to test and achieve a consistent shear, when the Raptor appeared on the drawing boards. I felt like our time and efforts would be better spent to drop the Carnivore, concentrate on the Raptor, and the higher velocity it can produce to be THE Cat and bear bullet of the future for our big bores.

The problem I had with this uneven and inconsistent shear was penetration, and predicting that penetration in a straight line. Large heavy chunks of bullet would shear from one side and cause the bullet to go unstable and not able to predict exactly where things would end up.

In June my only animal tissue test was on a Waterbuck with my 500 MDM, a deep Cavity Carnivore at 106 yds. It did the job, waterbuck hit the dirt and tried to get back up, problem he had was that the bullet had entered left side and exited in two peices 4 inches apart on the right side shoulder and in front of the shoulder. A spout of blood coming out steady the size of my thumb, and the shoulder broken as well. Inside was a goo mess with the lungs in several pieces, one piece as big as my fist or bigger. It really was incredible to see the reactions, along with the destruction of everything inside. Problem is, I never quite figured out the exits as compared with the entrance? Something was just not quite right. It works, and would work incredibly well, but I am going in favor of the Raptor right now, as the standard BBW#13 depth of .400 is well proven and way the hell beyond adequate and going deep into stopping anything on the planet that gets in its way.

If I were leaving today for lion with 458 Lott I would look pretty serious at both the 370 BBW#13 NonCon (band designed for levers) and the 420 BBW#13 NonCon. Either would do nice. Recently I ran some loads of the 420 BBW#13 NonCon with TAC, IMR 8208, and RL 15, all were in the 2425 to 2465 fps range. This can probably be improved upon some as I only tried one load in each powder. However, these are NOT STARTING loads either. Running either of these bullets at 2400-2550 fps or so, no lion in the world that ever existed can hold up to one! And, in my opinion, no bullet can come close to the destructive trauma these can produce, and without ever sacrificing any penetration at all, and in fact give superior penetration to any conventional in caliber.

Now that is saying a lot, and I have not shot lions with these, but I have shot three lions with conventionals, and I will take the NonCon and never look back again.

Michael

There is an additional effect from the pedals.

"projectile fragmentation (pedals)can turn the energy used in temporary cavitation into a truly destructive force because it is focused on areas weakened by fragment paths rather than being absorbed evenly by the tissue mass. The synergy between projectile fragmentation and cavitation can greatly increase the damage done by a given amount of kinetic energy."

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY
by M.L. Fackler, M.D.

Which is a facny of saying the pedals cause the permenant wound channel to get bigger because of the synergy between projectile fragmentation (pedals) and temperary cavitation as well as cause their own damage by "cutting-slicing their way through tissues, vitals, vessels and anything that gets in their way until they stop." A win-win

Cats include Lion, Tigers, and the smaller varity..A Leopard or Jaguar can be hunted with a .270 or 7x57 and a standard Nosler partition or Accubond...

The Lion is not that soft skinned for lack of a better term, he is very heavly muscled in the shoulders and I would use the same 500 gr. bullet on Lion as I do the Buffalo, it makes a big hole and kills them very well indeed.

A-Square makes a frangible so called "Lion Load" bullet specifically for Lion, and I think perhaps he started the idea that Lions are fragile creatures that need to be killed with a varmint bullet, and things like that catch on amongst the masses.

Personally I would not be caught with one of the A-Square Lion Loads in my big bore rifle while hunting Lion, cuz I might get caught dead! ..

I do very much like his "Dead tuff" bullets, and I would not hesitated to use one on a Lion, Buffalo or heart shot on elephant.

quote:

The Lion is not that soft skinned for lack of a better term, he is very heavly muscled in the shoulders and I would use the same 500 gr. bullet on Lion as I do the Buffalo, it makes a big hole and kills them very well indeed.

Hi Ray!

Ray, I have to tell you that your thinking is clear, but it is "Dated", or I possibly a better term would be "Out Dated".

Now, I don't intend to be a smart ass, nor do I intend to slight you or the statement in any way what so ever, so please don't take offense as none is intended. It was only a couple of years ago my thinking was Out Dated as well and you and I would have been in 100% Agreement on your statement above!

Times have changed. One can now do things with a BBW#13 NonCon that were never heard of in our recent history. In fact, this same 420 gr BBW#13 NonCon will out perform, and out penetrate any 500 gr Conventional expanding bullet ever made. A BBW#13 NonCon will transmit more trauma to target than any bullet I have ever witnessed on live animal tissue.

I doubt you have kept up with the terminal thread or you might begin to realize some of what I am talking about. The NonCons have been to the field this year by many, but for myself I used them this year in my own cartridges and rifles the 500 MDM and the 458 B&M, on 7 buffalo, croc and a few other things. Shooting in three different areas, Zimbabwe and RSA, and working with several PHs, and other observers the common statement after seeing these at work was this "I have never seen anything like this", referring to the trauma inflicted upon animal tissue, along with animal reactions when taking a hit. Using similar bullets in 2009 with one of my 500 MDMs, my die hard PH in Australia pretty much had the exact same statement. To the effect of chunking his carry rifle for a 500 MDM, and the bullets requested are the BBW#13 Solids and NonCons for his work Down Under. He got to witness 27 buffalo shot with similar bullets.

Naturally all the test work was done before taking this bullet to the field and the test work looked great. Here is but one of the first tests done with this particular 420 gr BBW#13 NonCon;



Obviously you cannot compare with what you don't know. In the test medium I use, a mix of catalogs and newsprint, wet and soaked, I use 458 Lott and the 500 gr Buffalo bullets as benchmarks so that I can understand and compare trauma and depth of penetration, and I have used many of the 500 gr Expanding Conventionals on buffalo in the past for direct comparisons. 500 gr Conventionals fired from a 458 Lott will drive from 19 inches up to 24 inches. For example, 500 Woodleigh Soft 20 inches, 500 Nosler Partition 19 inches, and 500 Swift A Frame 24 inches. I have used a good many Swifts in the field over the years with great success on buffalo. I have also used the Woodleigh with success. So I figure anything that gets to 18-19 inches in my test medium and above is good buffalo medicine. I have not been proven otherwise.

Ray, the NonCon works like this, after 2 inches of penetration there are 6 blades that shear off at the same time, these travel along with the center core bullet for up to and around 8 inches in the test medium. As they move forward they disperse in a star pattern away from center. While they are still close with the bullet to around 4-5 inches of penetration they work with the center bullet to transmit tremendous trauma to tissue, extremely distructive. As they continue to move away from center wound channel they become little slicing machines on their own path, ripping through lung tissue, vessels and other vitals along the way. Smaller animals, such as deer, impala and such, many of these blades will actually exit the far side. They do not exit buffalo of course. All blades found in my recovery efforts were in the massive goo and mush made of the vitals in the body cavity, which is nasty to say the least.

What works in the test medium, duplicates itself in animal tissue, with the exception of penetration. Penetration is much more in animal tissue than in the test medium. I have shot enough in both to be able to correlate to some extent, conventional expanding bullets will penetrate something from 80% to 100% more in animal tissue than test medium. From what I could tell of the NonCons that penetration of the center bullet is more 100% than less. Still more study to be done on that, but none the less, one does not concern oneself with penetration of a NonCon! As you well know, Penetration is a MUST. I believe in Penetration first--everything else comes along!

The only 420 BBW#13 NonCon that I recovered was from a cow buffalo about 35 yds, frontal chest shot with one of my 458 B&M rifles. This bullet traveled through the heart, made mush of everything behind it, completely through a full stomach and was found on the other side of the stomach after a tremendous amount of digging around in nasty things! That's a good bit of penetration. On frontals I have shot with conventionals I have never seen one pass through the stomach? Found in the stomach yes, not a pass through.

Below is a photo of this cow buffaloes heart as the 420 BBW#13 NonCon passed through it;



And the stomach contents we dug through twice completely, finally finding that the bullet had gone completely through this mess.



Below is the recovered bullet.



I also shot a croc in the top of the head as he jumped up to grab a nice nasty piece of elephant leg. This is what the 420 BBW#13 did to the top of his head, no bullet was recovered. So much trauma was inflicted that the top jaw was broken in two almost to the point of falling off, photos were hard to do, and the jaw fell off to the side several times during the photo session.




On another cow I shot broadside with the 420 BBW#13 NonCon during the inspection I took this photo of the exit.




A photo of myself and my daughter Mercedes with the cow buffalo that was heart shot with the 420 BBW#13 NonCon.




Now I reckon that would be more than enough penetration and trauma inflicted for lion!

Ray, we call them NonCon for a reason--Non Conventional! They do defy "Conventional" thought, and "Conventional" wisdom, that both you and I have been taught, and that we have learned!

They are also by no stretch a "Frangible" "Lion Bullet" along the lines of A-Square, which I concur with you 100%, I would not be caught with one of those for anything, not even impala, much less lion! This in my opinion is a "Dangerous to the Shooter" bullet! Will get you killed!



IBT

quote:

projectile fragmentation (pedals)can turn the energy used in temporary cavitation into a truly destructive force because it is focused on areas weakened by fragment paths rather than being absorbed evenly by the tissue mass. The synergy between projectile fragmentation and cavitation can greatly increase the damage done by a given amount of kinetic energy."

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE WOUND BALLISTICS LITERATURE, AND WHY
by M.L. Fackler, M.D.

Which is a fancy of saying the pedals cause the permenant wound channel to get bigger because of the synergy between projectile fragmentation (pedals) and temperary cavitation as well as cause their own damage by "cutting-slicing their way through tissues, vitals, vessels and anything that gets in their way until they stop.

Spot On!


This is the way I see it too.

Hope this helps some understanding of how these work.

Michael

You cannot compare your bullet to what I refer to as a fragile bullets such as the "
Lion load, yours is a two fold bullet, it fragments the front and I have no problem with that, because it has a solid flat nose core that finishes the job...

BTW it not an altogether new concept, and I'm not altogether out dated I don't think but if I am then I earned the hard way!! , perhaps a bit of both.

More than a few lead core bullets with fragmenting front portions have been around for a hundred or more years and met with success, you just added the monolithic concept to it, and for that I say kudos to you, and excellent idea and I can see where it is workable. I do wonder if it works that well on buffalo, then will it do the same on a lighter carcass such as a Lion, have you tried them on Lion specifically? Are they velocity specific? Normally if a bullet works on buff then its too tough to work the same on lighter game, that said even if it did not frag the front portion on a Lion, it would probably kill well enough..????? Just my take.

Ray

quote:

You cannot compare your bullet to what I refer to as a fragile bullets such as the "
Lion load, yours is a two fold bullet, it fragments the front and I have no problem with that, because it has a solid flat nose core that finishes the job...

Exactly Correct!

quote:

I do wonder if it works that well on buffalo, then will it do the same on a lighter carcass such as a Lion, have you tried them on Lion specifically?

No, I have not used them on lion as of yet. However, any of them, any caliber, that has been used on lighter game, even deer, they perform exactly the same way. I makes no difference whether very light thin skinned, or heavy buffalo thick skinned, exactly the same, shear at 2 inches, even and consistent, 6 blades moving with the center bullet, as they penetrate the blades move away from center. I have 110% Confidence they will turn a lion inside out, and perform exactly as described.

CCMDoc used the 375 BBW#13 NonCon in 375 Flanged this past year on Leopard, as I understand it was bang flop, bullet worked perfect.

quote:

He was dead before falling from the limb.
It was a great shot – just behind the right shoulder, it sheared the great vessels off the top of the heart and exited through the mid-left shoulder leaving a challenge for the taxidermist and made current jelly of the internals.

One of our own took some 9.3 BBW#13s and some 375 BBW#13s to Australia last year, mopped up pigs and steers with them. As I recall there was a story about shooting a feral cat with one as well. I also recall there was no question about the bullet giving perfect shear, on a feral cat! So I reckon they are in fact, "Dandy Cat Bullets"

quote:

Are they velocity specific?

Only to a minimum impact velocity to obtain shear. I tested this particular 420 and 450 BBW#13 down to low 1500 fps impacts before it would not shear. Anything above it shears and performs. There is NO UPPER END, they love velocity, the more velocity the more trauma and deeper the penetration. I have NEVER in my life been a velocity freak. I care nothing about velocity, and in my recent past I had a saying when it come to many conventional bullets "Velocity is not Always Your Friend", many of my friends and folks I have spoken with have heard that many times, somewhere I think it is even in print! BUT I HAVE HAD TO realize that with a Non Conventional Velocity Can be of great Benefit! While it does well at low velocity, it just gets better as velocity goes up. No upper end I can reach.

Lower end, without shear, it works like a BBW#13 Solid, dead straight penetration, and with a 67% meplat of caliber it hits hard anyway, and drives deep deep deep.


For sure not a new concept, and I sure did not invent it. I think I along with my "Lab Assistants", -------Discovered how it works, why it works, and we tweaked things to make it work better. It is of zero comparison to a lead core bullet that looses it's nose. Akin to "Wiping the Nose"! A BBW#13 Blows the whole DAMNED HEAD CLEAN OFF! HEH......

Ray, let me know if you are going to go shoot anything at some point, don't care if its a deer or a buffalo, I will send some bullets to you to give them a go, give me your opinion on them! I would value that. Seems I recall you being some partial to 9.3? I like my own 9.3 B&M, so I have some 9.3 BBW#13s, even a ESP Raptor! Might be of interest?

Michael

Nice interchange and discussion! Staying on track and educational. This is why we read AR!

Best,

jpj3

... and civil too. I appreciate everyone's thoughts and input.