I know this is unlike me to start a topic, which could be considered pointless purely on a common sence level of cognition, however, I'd apprecaite any contributions comparing/ contrasting these calibres.

As most of you konw, i've been working in a .408CT project since '04 and it's completed at it's end, however, I have a letter from the local firearms licencing telling me that my .408 "may not be in the interests of the state" and they are discussing muzzle energy and velocity as the key issues. It's almost fair enough, however if i'd purchased a HS .460 steyr, it wouldnt be a problem as it's fine, acceptable and available in stock "over the counter".....? I know, I dont make the rules.

if anyone can post here explaining to me, how a .408CT can have more power than a .460 steyr (not an accuracy discussion) I'd be appreciative.

cheers,

quote:

in the interests of the state

What State is that..??

I am not familiar with the 460 Steyr, what case is this based on? I know the 408 CheyTac is based on an improved, thick walled 505 Gibbs case. The real concern may be the very long range of the 408CT; at least if you are planning on using the very long VLD style bullets it is intended to use.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

in the interests of the state

What State is that..??

Queensland, Australia.

It's my atempt to be the first .408ct in OZ, though i've recently hears a person in another state has built a .338 snipe tac...

quote:

Originally posted by CMcDermott:
I am not familiar with the 460 Steyr, what case is this based on?

It's a necked down .50BMG case, and i'm trying to avoid the range and accuracy perameters as the only pills i can get at the moment are 400gr woodleigh rnsp's

Tell them that it's for culling camels humanely.

George

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Tell them that it's for culling camels humanely.

George

well, hoping for long range targetry or buff's up noth, considering the variety of pills (re: rnsp) but "they" are concerened about the maximum range, thus wanting to know about muzzle energy and velocity, which is why i would like this post not to get sidetracked

:fn solids have horrible BC, and, since you aren;t going to blow up your rifle, its only low pressure

I would be inclined to tell them that people, and not rifles, either are or are not "in the interests of the state," and that free people reserve the right to demur in any case, no matter what the state may say.

But before I said that, I would have lined up my ducks for a permanent move to a more politic place.

Give government an inch and all is lost.

quote:

a .460 steyr

If you can't get approval for a little .408 Cheytac they're not likely to give you approval for a 25 lb military anti-materiel rifle with an artillery style muzzle brake made in Austria...

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
If you can't get approval for a little .408 Cheytac they're not likely to give you approval for a 25 lb military anti-materiel rifle with an artillery style muzzle brake made in Austria...

that's my point, 460's are ok, and in stock, my 408 is "qustionable"

Build yourself a hopped up .378 Weatherby that looks like a hunting rifle and call it done.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Build yourself a hopped up .378 Weatherby that looks like a hunting rifle and call it done.

I didnt do that for the same reason i didnt buy a .22hornet and call it done.

can we please try to stick to the topic of actual numbers?

quote:

Originally posted by greggus:
...460's are ok, and in stock, my 408 is "qustionable"

Why not just ask for them to explane their "logic" on that point of veiw?

How can a round that burns half the powder and throws a bullet 25% lighter be a bigger threat to the Aussie "public safty". Than a rifle designed to take out light armored vehicled and other such targets. Maybe they want the 460s around for the day when OZ goes the way of MAD MAX.

Keith

Logic? Politicians?

WE need to draw the line...NOT the govt.

Greggus

Now I'm pretty sure the CT is based on the Jeffery case, the Steyr is based on the BMG case. Now it really depends on who makes the brass, but some BMG cases are made with very thick walls which can cut down internal case capacity. They really aren't made with the intention they will be reloaded

What your asking is a lot like asking why does the WSM case produce similar power levels to the WIN MAG, I suppose it's more a matter of efficiency in powder burning, and how much case capacity the projectile takes up

Now you haven't specified what you mean by "power", what do you consider "more power"

The more likely idea might be that they are able to produce superior ballistics in 408 cal compaired to the 460, which eventually means the 408 will "out fly" it, and in reality just because a projectile can "out fly" another, doesn't always mean it has more power behind it

How much POWER does a Glider have compared to a petrol run airplane ????? yet sometimes the glider can stay up longer and outfly a motorised airplane





Having said that

This is all heresay

I can't understand why you keep telling people to stick to the topic, there is nothing here to discuss, most of these blokes are in Countries other than AUstralia, It's a dead issue for you until you can get full approval from Australian Firearm registry for the calibre

And just because the 460 is ready to buy over the counter, doesn't mean you will get a permit to purchase it....does it

I hear there is 10, 50 cal steyrs sitting in boxes with interested buyers in Melbourne and it looks like they will never get sold because nobody is getting purchase approval

FULLSTOP

And you know what Firearm Registry are like to deal with

You can only go with whatever rifle "THEY" let you have especially if it's a wildcat or something not on the register, so this comparison discussion is pointless

You want something fancy, you might be better to get a lawyer and talk to your local SSAA rep and start fighting to have it or keep it, doesn't matter if your a park ranger, you will only be able to use whatever gun "they" will let you register and use

IMHO The suggestion of a 416 or 460 Weatherby based parent case isn't stupid, its the simplest, most direct way of getting what what you want without hastle

Firearms registry will more than likely knock you back on any case with a BMG as the parent case


regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
Greggus

I can't understand why you keep telling people to stick to the topic, there is nothing here to discuss,
And just because the 460 is ready to buy over the counter, doesn't mean you will get a permit to purchase it....does it
so this comparison discussion is pointless

regards
S&F

Ahh the joys of working in a gun shop.
I've seen the "permits to acquire" for some of the .460's, with another few on order.

There's anotehr lad i'm talking to in SA who's built a .338 snipe tac (further modification of the chey tac necked down to .338), no probs! i've seen the 375/50 jonngmanns.

current legislation is no BMG's, but wildcats are ok.


now referring back to my original post...
i'm sorry S&F that you dont understand the topic. I'll try to clarify:- does anyone have COMPARATIVE FIGURES FOR MUZZLE ENERGY and VELOCITY. no questions on politics, IMHO's or anything else,

eg 408ct 400gr pill @3000fps =10872 joules
460st 600gr pill @3100fps =17414 joules
(source: janes cartridges of the world)

has anyone got any different data to that?

Yes, this makes zero common sense.
.408 Cheyenne Tactical based on the sporting .505 Gibbs case, is tiny compared to the 460 Steyr. Not politics, pure ignorance.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Yes, this makes zero common sense.
.408 Cheyenne Tactical based on the sporting .505 Gibbs case, is tiny compared to the 460 Steyr. Not politics, pure ignorance.

Surely you don't expect gunlaws to make sense?


And to be precise, the 408 CT isn't really based on the Gibbs.
From a post by Triggerfifty/Dean Michaels on snipershide:

quote:

ON the subject of 408 brass. Guys should not assume that this round is based on the 505 Gibbs case. IT IS NOT. The outside dimensions are roughly the same, the case head size is the same, but the web thickness, flashhole dimensions, shoulder angles, and of course the neck diameter, neck tension, neck thickness, and a few more items are quite different. If you neck down .505 Gibbs cases and shoot them ( as some sad souls have done ), you will rupture the cases, have case head separation, blowback, possible chamber ruptures, etc. DO NOT USE 505 GIBBS BRASS!

Cardinal,
Yeh, I know all about that.
The .408 CT is to the .505 Gibbs
as
The .338 Lapua Mag. is to the .416 Rigby.

.416 Rigby is designed to operate just under 50K psi
.338 LM brass is designed for just under 70K psi

.408 CT operates close to 70KPSI too, eh?
.505 Gibbs operates down around 40K psi, eh?

Don't have time to look up the exact numbers.

Also note it would be a bad idea to build a .408 CT on a CZ550Mag or any .505 Gibbs sporting rifle, even using the proper .408 CT brass. Bolt thrust issues.

You really ought to have an action capable of 50BMG to build a .408 CT.

The .408 CT is dead in the water since the .416 Barrett, made from shortened and necked down 50BMG.

The .416 Barrett would be vastly superior for Australian varmint hunting, with a "400-grain" VLD pill at 3250 fps (actually the factory bullet is about 395 grains of pointy-boat-tailed-monometal brass).

Wondering what the Aussie Regulators think about the .416 Barrett?

According to QL, max pressure for the 408CT is 63k.

And no, the 408 has been better than the 416 Barrett in the reports I've seen.Interesting discussion about the 416: http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=sho...er=505059#Post505059
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=sho...er=634705#Post634705


The 375/408 Cheytac has them both beat when it come to max range.

Yes, but is the .416 Barrett politically correct in Oz?

The .408CT has had a 10-year headstart on the .416B. It is just a matter of time until the loading kinks are worked out for the .416 Barrett, then it will leave the .408 Shy Anne Tea Party behind.

You cannot judge the .416 Barrett based on the first run of factory ammo, though it is far from bad, no matter what the other forum smoke signals say.

Is there any such thing as factory ammo for the .408 Cheyenne Tactical?
Roll your own only?

All of these cartridges go in the same size action, so which one makes the most sense for varmint hunting?

I'ld take the 375/408, thank you.

As for the 408. Ammo is available from CheyTac.
Brass made by jamison (can buy it at Midway) and Horneber. In barrel life one can expect 2-3000 rounds with the 375/408. Triggerfifty had one 408 which surpassed 8000 before it was a 1 moa gun.
most I've seen expect a barrel life of the 416 to be around the 1000 mark.....
416 also requires a 50 BMG-sized action whereas the 408 is available in a smaller action made by lawton (and others). Smaller action often means lighter gun.
For the 375/408 Sierra is making a 350gr matchking if you don't want to use one of the turned mono-metal bullets.
In general the CheyTacs ammo seems more available than the 416.

If one don't intend on shooting that much at ranges over 1500m, then realistically a 338 Lapua is probably a more sensible choice. But being sensible is often not that much fun.

Here is a pic with a 460 Steyr next to a 338 Lapua Magnum. Looks like a dear to feed caliber.

http://www.australianhunting.n...ex.php?topic=41303.0

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RIP:

Also note it would be a bad idea to build a .408 CT on a CZ550Mag or any .505 Gibbs sporting rifle, even using the proper .408 CT brass. Bolt thrust issues.

You really ought to have an action capable of 50BMG to build a .408 CT.

QUOTE]

I think the MRC PH action is one answer to that issue. I am thinking of 505/416 run at full throttle for one of mine.

Yup after 8000 rds it was 1 MOA at 50FT if you didnt look too carefully. I actually have LOOKED DOWN THE BORE of a .408 CHEY TAC with a BORESCOPE and after 200rds it looks like the CRATERS ON THE MOON for over 1 ft! Can you spell PLASMA TORCH! Oh I know, the internet designers say thats not so! I must be BLIND!
Seriously- To go through all the trouble you are describing for a .408CT makes no sense to me OTHER THAN IF YOUR PLAN IS TO BE A ROYALE PIA to the Authorities! Which I can understand and commend you for !-Rob