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Originally posted by starmetal:
I have waded into the high grass to recover a wounded cape buffalo and I carried a Merkel .470 Nitro Express. My professional hunter carried a Remington model 700 in 30-06. I've seen him stop a charging lion and a charging cape buffalo with it.

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Originally posted by starmetal:


... the truth doesn't sell .458 Lots and .375 Rugers, and 375 Remington Ultramags. But if that is what you want to believe is required be my guest. No one would laugh at you for one of those selections. Well, maybe for the 375 RUM.

Obviously Saeed goes overgunned with his .375/404 UAExpress, according to that "yayhoo."


... Over time the Personal Hunters and Guides developed an understanding about what was appropriate for each animal ...

What is a "personal hunter?" Is it a PH with an attitude? Oh yes, about taxes on rifle caliber used: Never heard that one before. Another yayhoo yahooing ya?
Government legislation based on game departments and Professional Hunters' experiences and inputs did come up with legal mandates on caliber for safety sake.

What say you experts that have been there and done that to their claim you can do it all with such calibers as the 6.5x54MS, 7x57 Mauser, and 30-06 with precise shots?

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Originally posted by starmetal:
On another forum we got into a heated discussion on calibers for dangerous game.

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One of the favorite calibers of real life professional hunters used to take all African Game animals is the 9.3 X 62 Mauser

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Originally posted by surestrike:
What is the name of the PH who "waded" into long grass to sort out a wounded buff with M-700 in 30-06? I'd like to avoid him at all costs.

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That's for those that have something to prove

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Originally posted by gi:
The PH i Hunted with in Tanzania culled elephants with 30/06 with 200 or 220 gr solids. He said they chose their shots carefully and never had problems.

This is NOT advocating using 30/06 for elephant hunting.

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Originally posted by gi:
The PH i Hunted with in Tanzania culled elephants with 30/06 with 200 or 220 gr solids. He said they chose their shots carefully and never had problems.

This is NOT advocating using 30/06 for elephant hunting.

Free 500grains

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Originally posted by Grenadier:
I have no experience hunting or shooting dangerous game. But I know that velocity can skew an energy formula to the point of ridiculousness. I remember reading somewhere that an asprin fired fast enough would deliver the same muzzle energy as a 470 nitro. What is often overlooked in such comparisons is the momentum of a bullet. I don't think that any one formula can serve all possible situations but Tayor's KO formula is one of the few that includes a momentum component. His formula provides for interesting conversation. The formula can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor .

Here is a short list of some TKO values. Again, this is only for the sake of conversation. I make no recommendations. You can decide on your own what values represent suitable DGR calibers.

30-06, 180gr at 2700fps : Energy 2913, Momentum 69, Taylor KO 21
300RUM, 180gr at 3200fps : Energy 4092, Momentum 82, Taylor KO 25
338RUM, 225gr at 3020fps : Energy 4555, Momentum 97, Taylor KO 32
375H&H, 300gr at 2500fps : Energy 4162, Momentum 107, Taylor KO 40
45-70, 405gr at 1850fps : Energy 3077, Momentum 107, Taylor KO 49
458Win, 500gr at 2050fps : Energy 4664, Momentum 146, Taylor KO 67
470NE, 500gr at 2150fps : Energy 5131, Momentum 153, Taylor KO 72
12 bore, 750gr at 1050fps: Energy 1835, Momentum 112, Taylor KO 82

But you don't shoot animals at the muzzle. These change considerably with velocities reduced to typical 100yd values:

30-06, 180gr at 2500fps : Energy 2497, Momentum 64, Taylor KO 19
300RUM, 180gr at 2932fps : Energy 3435, Momentum 75, Taylor KO 23
338RUM, 225gr at 2842fps : Energy 4034, Momentum 91, Taylor KO 30
375H&H, 300gr at 2240fps : Energy 3341, Momentum 96, Taylor KO 36
45-70, 405gr at 1630fps : Energy 2388, Momentum 94, Taylor KO 43
458Win, 500gr at 1830fps : Energy 3717, Momentum 130, Taylor KO 59
470NE, 500gr at 1893fps : Energy 3977, Momentum 153, Taylor KO 63
12 bore, 750gr at 780fps : Energy 1013, Momentum 83, Taylor KO 60

Ranked by 100yd energy they would be:

338RUM
470NE
458Win
300RUM
375H&H
30-06
45-70 (hot load)
12 bore Paradox


Ranked by 100yd Taylor KO value:

470NE
12 bore Paradox
458Win
45-70 (hot load)
375H&H
338RUM
300RUM
30-06

The energy ranking doesn't seem to make sense but the TKO ranking does. Few would argue that a 470 is not a better DGR than a 338RUM.


~

________



"...And on the 8th day, God created beer so those crazy Canadians wouldn't take over the world..."

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I have fought large gangs of gooks who were armed with AK’s and RPD machineguns using a Bruno 9.3 bolt action

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I have fought large gangs of gooks who were armed with AK’s and RPD machineguns using a Bruno 9.3 bolt action

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Originally posted by Atkinson:

The best advise, although I have not always practiced it, is to use all the gun you can handle and still shoot accurately, the rest is more of a stunt...

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
The British colonies introduced a minimum calibre requirement after sending home too many sons of gentry in wooden boxes. it is all right for the colonial fellows and peasantry to get killed but not the upper classes!

Nothing to do with taxation- just the hard realities of the body count.

What you can get away with after a fair ammount of experience and what you can get away with as an amateur are very different. Most of the elephant culling in Zim was done using either 7.62x54R (with soviet armor piercing ammo) or 30-06 with A square 220grn mono’s. However, to make the culling teams one first needed to have shot 500 ele…working either as a problem animal control officer of a swing flanker on the culls. Until you had racked up the required experience you were strongly advised to stick to 9,3 and up.

Also, on the culls, the big cows were dropped first using a bigger caliber. Clem Coetsee used a .465, Mike la Grange a .495 A Square, Tim Paulet a .450 Watts, Ken Worsley a .458 win etc. Once the matriarch and other big cows were down the culling team switched to light semi auto rifles to finish off the younger cows, and calves as quickly as possible.

The circumstances of living and working full time in the bush often meant that you didn’t have the appropriate weapon for the job on hand. I have fought large gangs of gooks who were armed with AK’s and RPD machineguns using a Bruno 9.3 bolt action and shot problem elephant and buffalo with 7.62 Nato from my F.N. FAL , because that was what was on hand when needed.

I would never recommend going into a fire fight with a bolt action , nor could I recommend going on an unguided elephant hunt with a .308! On a guided hunt, you have the advantage of the services of a professional who will (should) help you get into position for a reasonable shot and is there to help sort out the situation if things go wrong. This means that a visiting sportsman can reasonably (but not totally safely) use a marginal weapon for dangerous game- a bow, a .45-70, a .30-06…

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Originally posted by Ganyana:
Pichon- the whole story is somewhere in the nicudu files I think, but briefly, I was sent to finish off a wounded buffalo which had escaped from a cull. The guys in the chopper were suposed to do that, but a ricochet from a .458 had killed one of the honary officers on board and the chopper had gone back to Bulawayo. An old Seargent, 'Mlausi and I set off after one buff, and two otyher groups of parks and vetinary department staff went after two others. As I was looking for a wounded buff bull, I took along my hunting rifle (an issue 9,3) rather than an anti-personel rilfe (I had a G3 issued to me at the time- which was useless anyway).

We found the buff, but one group of Vet staff had run into the gooks and was wiped out. My shots into the buff had attracted attention - I made the rookies mistake of firing two shots when the buff went down to the first one. Gooks were part of a large gang (100+( and some made the mistake of picking up our tracks. 'Mlausi wan't much to write home about as a shot, or upholder of any morals, but he was a bushman of some note, and an experienced fighter. under his tutalige we got out of the pridicament and four of them didn't.

All I can say for certain is that 293grn TUG'swere more effective on gooks than the AK bullet that went through me 7 years later

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Originally posted by Ganyana:

Also, on the culls, the big cows were dropped first using a bigger caliber. Clem Coetsee used a .465, Mike la Grange a .495 A Square, Tim Paulet a .450 Watts, Ken Worsley a .458 win etc. Once the matriarch and other big cows were down the culling team switched to light semi auto rifles to finish off the younger cows, and calves as quickly as possible.