OK: Provided you aren't the prince or king of UAE and you want one rifle that will hunt everything, and has a wide range, and stop any nasty that might go after you, isn't the 458 Lott it?

While I love the 375 H&H, it's not a real stopper. For a press, Dillon presses reload 375 and 458 Lott, making it cheap, and easy to make ammunition. 458 Lott CZ means a great value rifle.

So, you have lots of cheap bullets, a multi-stage press, and lots of cartridges in the magazine.

416 Remmington is close, but, it's a Remmington round, and who makes a rifle for it?

The only short side, is, unlike the Rigby rounds, these are high pressure rounds, with snappy recoil, but, they give you more rounds in the magazine.

G

My vote is for the Lott

Hog Killer

.

Sure, if you want to use expanding bullets.

Why not start with a preexpanded bullet?

I guess you are saying a high velocity, 300 grain flat nose out of a 458 doesn't kill as well as a 375 H&H?

What's the difference in recoil??HMMMMM???

G

GS , seems like you already made up your mind it's the 458 Lott. So why propose the question ? The 375 H&H gets my vote.

458 lott or those "close enough"..
cheap brass
cheap bullets
easy to get

best client gun, for GP?
375 or any of the 416ish

jeffe

.

With the right bullet... the 375 RUM is going to be hard to beat any where in the world.

With the right bullet... the 375 H&H is going to be hard to beat anywhere in the world, especially when your ammo doesn't arrive with your gun

If by Africa you mean Namibia, the Kalahari desert, or the Sahel, your 458 Lott won't be much help on a 250 yard shot for the majority of game you see there, will weigh too much to comfortably carry all day in those environments, will probably be mounted with the wrong scope for those conditions, and it will knock you around every time you take a shot.

The 375- hunt the world.

9,3x62 from Urals to Kamchatka, and .375H&H in the "Land of Lucy". Despite presence of "SUPER BULLETS" Americans and Australians often punish themselves with bigger "clubs". For those who can swing them "Big Berthas", I say go for it.

If you are asking what rifle will hunt everything from jackel to Elephant, then there is only one! The 1912 375 H&H!

The Lott is a great cartridge, but it is not versatile enough to be considered an all round rifle for Africa. Addtionally the verious 416s are close, but still on the heavy side for the little guys, just right for the Buffalo size stuff, and the 450s are better for the big guys.

There really isn't a single chambering that is perfect for everything, but the 375 H&H comes closer than anything else! All the 375s are good, but none of the late comers will do anything better than the old 1912 origenal 375 H&H, other than create more recoil. The 375 H&H is not only good "ONE RIFLE" deal for Africa, but it includes North America as well!
..............One rifle, for the world? The 375 H&H!

For those who can handle the recoil, any of the various .416s would be a terrific way to go for an all-around African rifle.

More power than the .375 H&H and more versatile than a .458 of any stripe.

I am taking a .416 Rigby to the Caprivi later this year as my back up DGR and for use on plains game.

As much as I like the 458 Lott, I will honestly admit that it is a specialized cartridge. Yes, you can load lighter bullets to lessen recoil and flatten trajectory, but that still doesn't make it the most practicle big game hunting cartridge, it makes it the most practical big bore to shoot for fun, or as the most practical stopping rifle.

If you want one hunting gun to do it all, and you are honest with yourself to admit that you will do very little hunting of the toughest game, the answer is quite simply the 375 H&H. The 375 is shootable, which makes it suitable for precise shots on dik dik on up to tuskers.

There are darn few people that can handle the recoil of the 458 Lott, and I've yet to hear anyone say they can shoot full patch loads from an unbraked lott from any shooting position and ignore recoil. I believe most any practiced rifleman can shoot a 375 from any position and ignore recoil.

The Lott is a very logical candidate, provided you can shoot it, and you'd better be honest with yourself in that regard, because wishful thinking doesn't count for much.

We have guys at our local rifle club with 458 Lott, 460s, 458 Win. Mags, etc., and many of these guys can't shoot for shinola. An elephant in an airplane hanger would be safe from these cowboys. But, they DO own the hardware, so I guess that's what counts!

I still think the 375 H&H and the 416 Rem. Mag. offer teh most shootability and power for the widest number of hunters. The Lott might be in the limelight right now, and that pilgrim editor for the NRA might feel the need to hunt mountain grizzlies with one, but I would wager that the average experienced rifleman and hunter can't shoot one for sour apples. That's what I've seen so far, anyway.

I shoot the 416 Rem. better than the Lott so that's what i'll stick with........

AD

If you only own one rifle and it is a 458 lott you are a sucker for punishment or do not intend shooting much game. It will be good to carry around a lott and intersting to show off around the braai. No good for a biltong hunt or dragging after pigs.

"I know, from using the rifle myself, that the .375 Magnum can safely and satisfactorily be taken against any animal anywhere in Africa. This is not written on the strength of shooting a few beasts with a new weapon and being pleased with the result. I have had three of Holland's .375 Magnums: the first bought secondhand in the early days of my experiments; after using it extensively I discarded it in order to try other weapons; Later, after I had been through the list of it's contemporaries, I bought another, also secondhand, so as to check up on the notes that I had made on the first one's behavior. So satisfied was I that I then discarded it and had Messrs. Holland & Holland build me up a new one - the one that I am using at present. I have fired more .375 Magnum ammunition in my life than any other calibre: over 5,000 rounds at game, including all kinds of African game from elephant downwards.

"I kept no record of the number of elephant and buffalo shot with the first two .375 Magnums; but I distinctly remember the day when this one dropped it's hundredth elephant; and in addition this same one has accounted for somewhere between 400 and 500 buffalo, besides a number of rhino, hippo and lion, and of course, a fair quantity of lesser game. So that both it and I are thoroughly accustomed to each other's little ways. I am not suggesting for a moment that it alone is a suitable weapon for the professional elephant hunter; and naturally I have other much more powerful weapons for use under certain conditions. But what I am suggesting is that personal experience has shown me that it is an eminently safe, sound and intensely-satisfactory weapon to take against any animal anywhere if the sportsman does not want to be bothered with a number of different weapons."

John Taylor - "Big Game and Big Game Rifles" Chapter 8 - page 103.

_______________________________________________

I don't know what more could be said than that. Few men alive today or who have ever lived have had the level of experience that Taylor had. His testimony carries tremendous weight IMHO...

375 H&H would be my first choice. If you feel that something bigger is called for, then go with the 458 Lott. That should cover just about anything.
Best, Starcharvski.

Gents,
the lott, when loaded to the same recoil level as the 375, is just as shootable...

I don't enjoy shooting ANY bigbore off the bench (from .366 up).

load a lott with 400br barnes X bullets at 2400 fps, and it's less recoil than a 416 rigby, perhaps even about the same as the 416 rem.

I understand that big bore shooting is a rather refined and trained art... exactly no difference than benchrest shooting, or ipsc or any other specialized shooting... skeet to 550 express... they ALL require training and discipline...

and the very very very very very first thing to "do" once you have made up your mind to shoot a big bore is to GET one and start banging away with it. This means both training and "flinging lead" as both has their place.


From a guy with a 30-06 that he thinnks kicks to a 375 OR a 458 lott, there's ZERO difference in "a sh!t load of recoil"...


In short, if you don't train with a big bore, and FULLY ACCEPT THAT YOU SUCK WHEN YOU GET STARTED, you will never get good with ANY big bore.


as a negative example, when I started shooting 416s, I thought it was all of the world of recoil and shot them poorly.. got 2 scope cuts... got a flinch FROM THE SCOPE CUTS and then trained to get far better...

today i can shoot the 550 express better than i could shoot the 416s THEN...

but today I can shoot the 416s like 308s, when a couple years ago they were all i could do to hit paper at 100.

train, practice, shoot, and get better

jeffe

More accolades from John Taylor in his chapter on Medium Bores from "African Rifles & Cartridges":
".375 Magnum Holland & Holland. Undoubtedly one of the deadliest weapons in existence...Altho my formula gives this rifle a Knock-Out value of 40 points, I must regretably admit that does not really do full justice to it. In actual practice the stopping power of the .375 Magnum would seem to warrant a higher classification...And altho I've been speaking of heavy and dangerous animals, it must not be imagined that the .375 Magnum is only suitable for them. This is where the .375's great beauty comes in- it is equally effective on all the non-dangerous list, both the heavier as well as the lighter varieties...Its weight and diameter, combined with its speed and depth of penetration, would seem to be the factors that are responsible for its amazing killing power. And when I say "amazing killing power", that's just what I mean- it's not hyperbole. Only those who have actually used this cartridge on a wide variety of different animals, having previously used "ordinary" rifles on these same species, are in a position to thoroughly appreciate the .375 Magnum's deadliness."

I've got a Lott and 375. The Lott is a 'lot' more than the 375. I stay around 2200 fps with 500 grn bullets in the Lott.

On a typical session at the range, hunting positions, I can go all day long with the 375.

However after about 20 or so rounds with the Lott, I start getting recoil shy and start doing bad things. Flinching, jerking the trigger, etc.. It is definitely an eye opening cartridge.

For a long time I was doing well and keeping them inside of ~8 inch circle at 100 yds (with a 2.5x scope) while standing, no rest. With the last couple of trips groups my are opening up.

It's all me as, quite honestly, I'm getting a bit shy of the gun. Somehow I started hitting my upper lip with my thumb of my right hand. I need to do more dry firing and having someone randomly load emptys outside my view so I can catch myself flinching. I also need to start pulling the rifle into my shoulder with my left hand, while pushing away with my right. I've somehow dropped that habit and it really helps.

Basiclly I've learned that you need to practice, but not too much durring each session. Short and frequent is the key to shooting big bores.

-Steve

The most practical Dangerous Game caliber is the 416 Remington without a doubt...The 375 is a close second but for the big ones that bite, hook or squash you into pulp, the 40 caliber is a plus IMO....I have used the bigger ones ans I have a .470 but I have never seen any advantage to any round larger than a 416 Remington except in someones mind...

While the lott can be downloaded to lesser recoil levels, it can't be downloaded and still have the loads that makes it what it is for thick skinned game.

There are darn few that will put in enough range time to master the lott. I also know from personal experience that if you have a long break from shooting, all that time building up to shooting the big bores will be lost, and you'll have to start from scratch.

IMHO, 20 rds of full patch Lott ammo is too much for a shooting session, limit it to 10. Once a gun hurts you, you'll never shoot it well. If you feel the gun is becoming too much during a shooting session, stop shooting it for the day.

My vote goes to the .416 Rem or Rigby, whichever floats your boat. Good shooting.

Just for lack of any other topic to talk about after 7 or 8 days of hunting, I asked my PH in Zimbabwe (when we passed by) to point out places where he been successful on elephants. He'd point out a hill or a valley and tell me about the hunt... almost everytime I asked him about the gun... he'd smile and say, ".375!)

Would I trade a .375 for my .470 for a shot at a hippo on land, no! Would I have killed a couple of buffalo this last trip to Tanzania if I had my .375 with me (probably.. because a dozen reasons one can figure.). Can I shoot the .375 20 to 40 times in an afternoon and still remember on the way home that a red light means stop and green means go, yes.. and no! after shooting with my Lott or .470... ask 1115 about that.


The .375 is just a practical tool that works without punishment at all. Unless you're going to make hunting hippo and elephants a pretty regular thing, it just ain't necessary to have a Lott... but I have one, and a .470 and a .404 and a .416 and......

It's kind of like women. A high-powered, plastic titted bimbo will do the trick, but there's a price to pay. Good sense points to the .375 H&H. But guess who I had a date with last night. We never learn. An accurate .375 that puts 300 grain solids and softs in the same hole and hunts with 4 or 5 down and one in the spout will always do the job.. but does it always "flick your bic?" If not, just close your eyes and make believe you're holding J.A. Hunter's .500 Boswell. It works on most women.... or just take one of those blue pills when you start getting on hot tracks.

Judge, I am surprised at you. You should know that with a bimbo, plastically enhanced or otherwise, you always need to use solids. Never softs.

At my age, you take what you can get with what you've got.

Let me get this right...you have 2 rifles ready to go on a table in camp, one a 416 Rem and the other the Lott, and you are rolling dice to see WHAT you are about to hunt and what range you will be shooting over. The down side of picking the Lott and having a 300 yard shot is worse than picking the 416 and going for point blank Buff.

Ray wins again!

I suppose the most practical all around is the 375 H&H, but the 458 Lott excels in most categories and is a great plains game bullet with 400 grain spitzers, and perfectly capable of 300 yard shots as well.

Judge G

quote:

A high-powered, plastic titted bimbo will do the trick, but there's a price to pay.

I'm ready to move to Texas or LA, right now on that account.

quote:

At my age, you take what you can get with what you've got.

NO S... I'm no spring chicken, either.

OK: I've GOT a 375 H&H CZ, with REMOVEABLE muzzle brake, and, with hi power ammunition, it still kicks. Nice Kick-eze magnum pad, custom bedding, had the stock cut so it fits, and squared it up, so it recoils more straight back.
Still, a 300 grain bullet out of a 375 cartridge, should recoil REAL close to a 300 grain 458 bullet, out of a slightly expanded 375 cartridge. What's the difference in grains between a 375 H&H, and a 458 Lott?

The remmington is out of the running because it's a REMMINGTON, soon to be extinct, cartridge.

So, what should I do? Take the scope off my 375 H&H and call it a dangerous game rifle?

The calibers that kick less, or could kick less, with lower pressure, don't seem to be as easy to reload. 500 Jeff anyone?


G

All of these geriatrics on this sight are recoil shy! Guys go get another sponge bath and take some prune juice. A .458 lott or a .470 is not the viscious recoil montser I keep reading about on this sight.

Yes, if you are shooting one off of your walker with double rebuilt hips and a pace maker it may be a bit much.

But darn it guys if you'd take your dentures out and empty those colostomy bags before shooting it'd ease the shock a bit.

Seems we go through this circle jerk on a regular basis I guess I will join in this time

I vote for the 416 Rem Mag, but with a different twist. I use 350 grain A Frames at 2600 fps. This makes for a pretty good plains game rifle with very managable recoil while meeting the requirement of handling dangerous game. You should always be armed for the most nasty critter you may run into.

If a 300 grain 375 is OK, a 350 grain 416 is better. Just my opinion.

.416RM 350gr SAF sighted 2&1/2" high at 100yds drops about 5" at 300yrds and.... .375 BRMNE is still king. That H&H is just too svelte for those "Big Berthas". It's much like comparing female fitness competitor to a female bodybuilder!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
All of these geriatrics on this sight are recoil shy! Guys go get another sponge bath and take some prune juice. A .458 lott or a .470 is not the viscious recoil montser I keep reading about on this sight.

Yes, if you are shooting one off of your walker with double rebuilt hips and a pace maker it may be a bit much.

But darn it guys if you'd take your dentures out and empty those colostomy bags before shooting it'd ease the shock a bit.

god lord, I was laughing out loud in my office!!

One unique recoil observation I had was once with my father during a goose hunt. He had his 10ga double loaded with 2.5 ounces of shot in each barrel and 120 grains a blackpowder underneath each shot column. The gun doubled on him, so now the equivalent of 5 ounces (2188 grains) of shot in front of 240 grains of powder generated so much recoil he was actually stunned, still standing, but completely unresponsive for about 5 seconds I took me a few more seconds to figure out what was going on, but in that time he came back to his senses... SO, before all the chest beaters go out and use a 458,505,600 etc... for a general purpose rifle, the physiological effects may need to be taken into consideration. You never know when you brain may decide to take a vacation after being pummeled with a super might magnum JUST when you need it the most. Like that second shot right before your ground into the dirt between the hooves of some PO'd beast Hunt well.

just recalled something.. about 1/2 the big bore forum posters don't actaully consider the 375 a "big bore".. rather a heavy medium....

not my opinion, just relaying others

so, to not risk offending that crowd, I bet the 40s are the starting point....

Mancannon,
doubling is a uique consideration to double guns, and a 375 HH or a Lott in a double spells disaster due to pressure, and is not a consideration for most of the conversation...

yes, merkel does it in 375 hh and 416 rigby... but still a bad idea

jeffe

The .375 may not be a stopper but then again the Lott is not an all purpose round. The .416 is a good compromise, but still, you may find yourself out of range in Namibia on Springbok. So, for me it would be a .375h&h or .375 Wby.

My Winchester 70 in .375 H&H is my world gun. I have thought many times about the .458 but the .375 gets it done for me.

I really like my .375 H&H and it is VERY practical, I'd reckon that most hunting camps have good supply of ammo for it, left by other hunters. I'm really starting to like the .416 Rem also, so I would have to weight it on how much of the big DG it was going to be used for, if a small % percentage the .375, if a bigger % then the .416 Rem.