The Accurate Reloading Forums
Light and fast .458 bullets?
21 December 2010, 22:26
frank4570Light and fast .458 bullets?
I want to load up some .458 win mag bullets for deer. I'm thinking the .325 gr gas checked rnfp.
The idea is to get a flatter trajectory.
I'm reluctant to use the 300gr hollow points which are designed for 45-70 velocity. It sounds like it would make a real mess.
I'm sure somebody else has already done this. Can you tell me what works for you and what velocity you are getting. I am hoping not to break the bank to get some bullets.
Thanks.
Sand Creek November 29 1864
21 December 2010, 22:38
GeorgeSHow about the Hornady 325gr. FTX?
George
21 December 2010, 22:40
meteJust how fast do you want to drive them ? I hunt with a 45-70 and use 300 gr bullets. But I found that the HPs are too soft for me. I went to the Winchester Partition [Nosler] and I'm now happy .The Barnes TSX should perform well too. Both can be driven faster though I don't have experience for performance. Swift A-frame has lighter bullets both for 45-70 and 458.
21 December 2010, 22:53
frank4570quote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
How about the Hornady 325gr. FTX?
George
That is a really, really good idea.
Sand Creek November 29 1864
21 December 2010, 22:53
frank4570quote:
Originally posted by mete:
Just how fast do you want to drive them ? I hunt with a 45-70 and use 300 gr bullets. But I found that the HPs are too soft for me. I went to the Winchester Partition [Nosler] and I'm now happy .The Barnes TSX should perform well too. Both can be driven faster though I don't have experience for performance. Swift A-frame has lighter bullets both for 45-70 and 458.
I want them to go as fast as they can accurately.
Sand Creek November 29 1864
23 December 2010, 07:33
buckeyeshooterquote:
Originally posted by GeorgeS:
How about the Hornady 325gr. FTX?
George
they are very soft even at 45/70 or 450 marlin speeds-- think varmit bullet in a 458
23 December 2010, 07:54
MacifejHad some 250 XFN's or XFB's whatever the 250 Grain HP is that Barnes makes. Shot em at 2600+ FPS in 45-70 with 26" bbl. No clue what they do on deer. The load is posted on Ammoguide.
23 December 2010, 07:56
SGraves155My 458win didn't shoot the 400 grainers as accurately as the 450 and 500 grainers.
23 December 2010, 08:20
Ken ClineTry the Barnes 300 grain bullets. Either pointed or flat point. They are longer because of being pure copper, and shoot well at all velocities.
I had a 45-120 and I pushed them to 458 Lott velocities, and they shot to 1 MOA. Devistating on deer. Just don't hit shoulder. They don't blow up, but it's a really big bullet going that fast and it chews stuff up if you the good meat.
23 December 2010, 08:37
MacifejKen
Do you recall off hand what kind of velocity you were getting with the 300? Which rifle?
Thanks
23 December 2010, 18:45
MTMMy Mod. 70 shoots the 350 TSX very accuratly.
24 December 2010, 00:01
nyatiinc.comWhy don't you try a 250gr TSX at 2,000fps they work great on
Deer size animals from a 458WM
Ed
24 December 2010, 00:15
KabluewyDo you mean these?
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=819504Although it has a low BC, according to the Hornady ballistic calculator, it should be good for deer out to 150yds are so. Starting at 2000fps, it still has 1100 ft lbs at 150 yds. Sighted in zero at 125 yds, the drop at 150 yds is 2.4".
How flat of trajectory do you need? How much recoil do you want to put up with for deer?
IMO, I much prefer this bullet suggestion to full velocity loads. It should be a rather plesant load to shoot, and very effective, without explosive damage to the meat.
I'm planning on testing for accuracy some of the 300gr TTSX SOCOM bullets this weekend at the range, maybe tomorrow, at about 1900 - 2000 fps, to use on Texas hogs.
KB
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24 December 2010, 00:18
.458 Onlyquote:
Originally posted by MTM:
My Mod. 70 shoots the 350 TSX very accuratly.
The 350 TSX also shoots very accurately from my CZ at 2750 fps. Pretty flat shooting. Seated long and crimped in bottom groove, you can equal a Lott. The M70 must be loaded a bit shorter but can be crimped into the second groove I believe, but using H4198 you can get some pretty impressive MVs. Going to the 300 TSX, you could improve MV by 100 fps, or so, and flatten trajectory a bit, but they slow down faster than the 350, so trajectory isn't really that much better.
Another option, and perhaps a good one that I'm looking into, is the 300gr TTSX for the SOCOM which has multiple grooves also. It has a boat tail and a plastic tip. Barnes claims it will open down to a velocity of only 1100 fps. It's all copper with a hollow cavity,apart from the tip. I'm planing on ordering a box as soon as I have a bit more info: cost and how many per box.I think they should make a great long-range medium game load... even for coyotes and wolf.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)
24 December 2010, 01:16
akplsI loaded up some 250 gr. Barnes X for my 450 Marlin and tried to push them fast. The accuracy was pretty poor compared to pushing 350's and up at slower speeds.
24 December 2010, 01:21
nyatiinc.comNo Kabluewy I'm talking about a load that is in developement for Nyatiinc.com using the 250gr TSX Barnes Bullet with 50grs of 5744 accurate
Powder it will push that bullet about 2,000FPS
Thats what I mean
Ed
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24 December 2010, 02:48
MacifejBarnes 250 XFN
56 Grains H-4198
2.525 COAL
2612 FPS
26.0 BBL
RUGER #1 or ENCORE ONLY!!24 December 2010, 06:30
.458 OnlyI believe frank4570 is speaking of a fast bullet for his .458 Win Mag. It appears that some others are thinking that also. Is that correct Frank?
If so, the 250gr TSX FN and 300gr TSX FN are definitely NOT the way to go! With B.C.s of .136 and .163, respectively, they will slow down in a hurry! Better bullets are some of those mentioned: 300gr TSX FB; 300gr SOCOM; 350 TSX FB; 400gr Original FNSP or 400gr Original SP. And Barnes has the 400gr Buster which should work on just about anything. ALL of these will work on deer, hogs, elk, moose, bear, and some on bison.
Then, there is the traditional 405gr by Remington which is a good bullet (not as tough as those mentioned--but still good)with a good B.C. of .281. It'll work on anything up to moose, and from a .458 WM, pushed at 2200 - 2400 fps it shoots pretty flat also. And it's dirt cheap!
A hardcast isn't a bad idea either. A good one can be accurate and will punch through a bison.
Good luck in your search.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)
24 December 2010, 14:58
frank4570quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
I believe frank4570 is speaking of a fast bullet for his .458 Win Mag. It appears that some others are thinking that also. Is that correct Frank?
[/url]
Yep, that is exactly it. The idea is to be able to shoot farther without having to figure holdover.
Sand Creek November 29 1864
24 December 2010, 16:19
Don In ColoradoAlthough it is probably heavier than you are looking for I have had great results with 400 grain Woodleigh Protected Point bullets using AA 2230. I load this to a muzzle velocity of 2,255 fps with good accuracy, excellent performance on game, and reasonable recoil from an old M77 Ruger.
Best of all he loved the Fall....
E. Hemingway
24 December 2010, 20:26
Ken Clinewith the 300 grain in the 45-120 I was getting over 2800.
Actually, I loaded the pointed and flat point versions, and the flat points were more accurate. I'm sure they would cool down quick past 150, but I wasn't looking to shoot that far anyhow.
It was a custom Ruger #1 with a 26" barrel. Same twist rate as a 458 win. mag.
24 December 2010, 20:50
mstarlingThere are several aspects of lightening the projectile and increasing velocity.
Increasing the velocity does flatten the trajectory ... is a tradeoff though if the shape of the bullet changes dramatically. Large diameter bullets with less aerodynamic shape will bleed off velocity much more quickly.
The other major factor is the ruggedness of the bullet. Larger diameter projectiles take a heck of a beating upon impact. Lightly constructed bullets at velocities substantially above their intended use range tend to blow up on impact.
Am not opposed to going to a lighter bullet and higher velocity ... but do try to make sure there is a balance to all things. In Africa I have used a .416" 350 gr Barnes X at 2700 fps for Cape Buffalo ... worked well. Have also used a 425 gr Rhino bullet at 2400 fps and dropped at Eland at 186 yards with ease.
What I've tried not to do is to hit game with a projectile that will grenade on impact.
Mike
--------------
DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ...
Knifemaker,
http://www.mstarling.com 24 December 2010, 23:33
Kabluewyquote:
Originally posted by frank4570:
I want to load up some .458 win mag bullets for deer. I'm thinking the .325 gr gas checked rnfp.
The idea is to get a flatter trajectory.
Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by frank4570:
quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
I believe frank4570 is speaking of a fast bullet for his .458 Win Mag. It appears that some others are thinking that also. Is that correct Frank?
[/url]
Yep, that is exactly it. The idea is to be able to shoot farther without having to figure holdover.
quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
quote:
Originally posted by MTM:
My Mod. 70 shoots the 350 TSX very accuratly.
The 350 TSX also shoots very accurately from my CZ at 2750 fps. Pretty flat shooting. Seated long and crimped in bottom groove, you can equal a Lott. The M70 must be loaded a bit shorter but can be crimped into the second groove I believe, but using H4198 you can get some pretty impressive MVs. Going to the 300 TSX, you could improve MV by 100 fps, or so, and flatten trajectory a bit, but they slow down faster than the 350, so trajectory isn't really that much better.
Another option, and perhaps a good one that I'm looking into, is the 300gr TTSX for the SOCOM which has multiple grooves also. It has a boat tail and a plastic tip. Barnes claims it will open down to a velocity of only 1100 fps. It's all copper with a hollow cavity,apart from the tip. I'm planning on ordering a box as soon as I have a bit more info: cost and how many per box. I think they should make a great long-range medium game load... even for coyotes and wolf.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
quote:
Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I'm planning on testing for accuracy some of the 300gr TTSX SOCOM bullets this weekend at the range, maybe tomorrow, at about 1900 - 2000 fps, to use on Texas hogs.
KB
I think the advice (quoted above) from .458 only(Bob) is most likely going to give the best results. The flat trajectory, longer range thing is sort of a quandary for the 458. Sure, it’s not much of a problem to get lighter bullets starting out fast, but the problems happen after the bullet leaves the muzzle. Some bullets will do what they were designed to do at 200 yds, but blow up ar 25 yds. Some bullets will act like a solid at 200 yds, and do what they were designed to do at 25 yds.
Accuracy is also a relevant factor. The standard chamber and throat of the SAAMI .458 WM wasn’t designed for lighter bullets, nor was it designed for long range accuracy. Pure and simple – it was designed to deliver a heavy bullet, at about 2100 fps MV, at less than 100 yds, to clobber DG, in a hot climate. I’ve never tried long range shooting with a 458WM. Perhaps some rifles are capable of the accuracy needed, but I doubt it.
It was not made clear just how far are you planning to shoot game with your 458? I suggest that you look at the Hornady ballistic calculator on their web-page. I ran the numbers for both the 300gr TTSX socom and the 350 gr TSX, and assuming you can get 2800fps with the 300gr, and 2600fps with the 350gr, it looks like about 200 yds is all there is, without holdover. They both drop about 4” below point of aim at that range.
My point in the earlier post is that for deer and hogs, 2000 fps gives good trajectory out to 150 yds, and energy further than that with holdover. Use a range finder.
Starting out at about 2000 fps has other advantages too. It opens the possibility of lots of other bullets, such as the soft flat nose Rem 405 gr, and the Speer 400gr.
Everything is a trade off. Flatter trajectory in 458 definitely = more recoil. If your “flat trajectory” is to achieve an extra fifty yards then IMO it too high a price to pay, especially since it’s a problem solved with a range finder.
If you must push it to the max, these two bullets are probably the choices. I'm going to the range today to test some 300gr TTSX bullets in a load I'm estimating to be about 2000 fps. If it goes well, I'll shoot some at the 200 yd target, and post some pictures just for you.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=776105http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=558791http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource
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25 December 2010, 00:25
Frank MartinezI have some swedged .458's @325 gr. and .350 gr that were made with .065 jackets. They will not come apart at whatever speed you drive them into your animals. They are .935 long so only a touch over 2:1 for caliber. I would believe that your twist rate and your final accurate velocity will ultimately indicate what your hunting load should be but I would not be afraid of a POA out to 350 yards fairly reliably. It will be nice to know what a ballistics calculator says. These are flat nose soft and solid.
I recall many years ago using a .458 LaFranc bullet in 300 or 350 grain that was spitzer and very accurate but more of a frangible jacket that I wanted.
Send me an address and I will send you a few to test and Chrony.
Frank
25 December 2010, 03:27
MARK H. YOUNGFrom my 20" barrel 458 WM I get 2550FPS with the 350 X and 1 MOA accuracy. It hit caribou like a hammer with complete pass throughs and I don't see why it would not do the same for anything but the heaviest game out to about 250 yards.
Mark
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https://www.facebook.com/pages...ures/627027353990716 25 December 2010, 05:03
KabluewyToday's range results:
Three groups, 100 yds, three shots each.
Left to right: 60gr H4895, 62gr H4895, 60gr H4198. The small hole is from a 308. I shot the 60gr H4895 loads first, and note that the first shot cold barrel hit within an inch of the two shots that followed in warm barrel.
The H4895 60gr loads averaged a little over 2000fps, 62grs a little over 2100fps, and the H4198 loads a little over 2400fps.
All with Hornady brass, Fed 215 primer, Barnes 300 gr TTSX Socom bullet.
I am very pleased. Also I discovered that I forgot to tighten the base screw on the rings, and the scope is a little wobbly. I'll tighten it.
So, I'm going to go with the 60gr H4895 load for the hog hunting trip in a couple of weeks. Most likely I'll post pictures.
KB
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31 December 2010, 18:00
a.tinkererBob-
quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
The 350 TSX also shoots very accurately from my CZ at 2750 fps. Pretty flat shooting. Seated long and crimped in bottom groove, you can equal a Lott. The M70 must be loaded a bit shorter but can be crimped into the second groove I believe, but using H4198 you can get some pretty impressive MVs.
I want to hear more about this load and how you developed it.
2750fpsMV with a 350gr bullet from the .458win is definitely a ripping load.
If Barnes is correct with the BC=.278 figure on that bullet, you're still doing 1964fps at 300 yards, 1736fps at 400!
That could be just about 4" high at 150yds and 5" low at 300yds, effectively point it and punch it out to three hundred yards no problem.
At 400 it's 22" low.
Pretty amazing.
Where did you do your load development?
What components did you use?
How is the brass looking at 2750fps?
Cheers
Tinker
_________________________________
Self appointed Colonel, DRSS
31 December 2010, 18:05
a.tinkererquote:
Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Bob-
quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
The 350 TSX also shoots very accurately from my CZ at 2750 fps. Pretty flat shooting. Seated long and crimped in bottom groove, you can equal a Lott. The M70 must be loaded a bit shorter but can be crimped into the second groove I believe, but using H4198 you can get some pretty impressive MVs.
I want to hear more about this load and how you developed it.
2750fpsMV with a 350gr bullet from the .458win is definitely a ripping load.
If Barnes is correct with the BC=.278 figure on that bullet, you're still doing 1964fps at 300 yards, 1736fps at 400!
That could be just about 4" high at 150yds and 5" low at 300yds, effectively point it and punch it out to three hundred yards no problem.
At 400 it's 22" low.
Pretty amazing.
Where did you do your load development?
What components did you use?
How is the brass looking at 2750fps?
Cheers
Tinker
_________________________________
Self appointed Colonel, DRSS
31 December 2010, 21:55
a.tinkererBy the way Bob --
Are these articles yours?
458win WinVsLottI need to take a look at the throat in my Whitworth, also to look at max COAL with that rifle.
Cheers
Tinker
_________________________________
Self appointed Colonel, DRSS
31 December 2010, 22:16
GanyanaI got 3000fps with the light barnes out of a .458 Lott (CZ 25@ barrel) and 2820fps out of my 22" barrel. Still kicked like hell
31 December 2010, 22:25
a.tinkererDo you mean the 350gr or the little 300gr tipped bullet?
quote:
Originally posted by Ganyana:
I got 3000fps with the light barnes out of a .458 Lott (CZ 25@ barrel) and 2820fps out of my 22" barrel. Still kicked like hell
I'm more interested in relatively flat shooting and good retained energy in the 300-400yd range.
More retained energy is better, and I'm seeing a better BC and more energy out there with the 350...
Cheers
Tinker
_________________________________
Self appointed Colonel, DRSS
01 January 2011, 00:01
.458 Onlyquote:
Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
quote:
Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Bob-
quote:
Originally posted by .458 Only:
The 350 TSX also shoots very accurately from my CZ at 2750 fps. Pretty flat shooting. Seated long and crimped in bottom groove, you can equal a Lott. The M70 must be loaded a bit shorter but can be crimped into the second groove I believe, but using H4198 you can get some pretty impressive MVs.
I want to hear more about this load and how you developed it.
2750fpsMV with a 350gr bullet from the .458win is definitely a ripping load.
If Barnes is correct with the BC=.278 figure on that bullet, you're still doing 1964fps at 300 yards, 1736fps at 400!
That could be just about 4" high at 150yds and 5" low at 300yds, effectively point it and punch it out to three hundred yards no problem.
At 400 it's 22" low.
Pretty amazing.
Where did you do your load development?
What components did you use?
How is the brass looking at 2750fps?
Cheers
Tinker
Tinker;
My .458 Win Mag is a CZ550. It's action is the same as any of CZ's long-action magnums. That is, it allows a COL of up to 3.75" in the magazine. The throat (leade, or "freebore")is typical of most .458 Win Mags... which allows a COL of up to 3.75" still with freebore of about .20", depending on bullet profile and length. Of course, the 350 TSX isn't long enough to allow more than a COL of 3.45" when crimped into the bottom groove. In the .458 Lott, with the same bullet seated to crimp into the top groove, it's COL would be 3.5" (2.8" + .7"). The difference is .05" in favor of the Lott, which would still have less freebore than the .458 Win Mag at 3.45".
Sooooo, I've referred to BARNES #3 Manual, which shows loads for the 350-X in both the .458 WM and Lott sections. I've used the data for the Lott, minus 2 grains and get almost exactly the MV they show for the Lott.
In summary: My COL is nearly equal to the standard Lott COL for the 350-X. BUT, I have more freebore than the Lott, so I consider that a safe practice. Also, it has proven to be a very accurate load (MOA, consistently. Last year's load that killed a black bear at 90 yards, shot into 1/2-inch (2 shots) when I retested it a few weeks ago at 100 yards. The two holes were touching.
Plus the fact that recoil isn't that severe at 51 ft-lbs. Believe me, you'll never notice it when shooting a game animal. It shoots as flat as a .30-06 out to 400 yards, and is carrying plenty of smash for ANYTHING up to moose in size!
It is my go-to load for that rifle, and I didn't find the weight, or length, a burden when I carried it for 8 hrs a day in moose hunting two years ago. It's balance is superb.
I don't know about the Whitworth... the magazine would be the only limiting factor as the leade on .458 Win Mags is usually about 3/4-inch.
The best powder for the 350 TSX in my experience is H4198. H4895 and H335 (and AA2230)are a tad too slow. RL-7 is also very good, just not quite as good as H4198 (NOT the same as IMR 4198).
I hope this is helpful...
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)
01 January 2011, 00:07
.458 Onlyquote:
Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
By the way Bob --
Are these articles yours?
458win WinVsLottI need to take a look at the throat in my Whitworth, also to look at max COAL with that rifle.
Cheers
Tinker
Yes. they are mine.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)
01 January 2011, 00:21
ontarioIMR 3031 and a Honaday round nose 350Grn.
Works great on deer and bear. Remington 458.
one of us
01 January 2011, 00:22
a.tinkererBob Thanks-
I run the hornady snrn 350 in my 458 at about 2450fpsMV
I'd very much like to see more launch speed and a better BC, for more energy at 300+ yards.
The mag box in that whitworth needs a peek some time this afternoon, we'll just see about my max COAL.
Cheers
Tinker
_________________________________
Self appointed Colonel, DRSS
01 January 2011, 00:34
.458 Onlyquote:
Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
quote:
Originally posted by a.tinkerer:
Bob-
How is the brass looking at 2750fps?
Cheers
Tinker
Sorry, I missed that one...
THE BRASS is Winchester and I have never had to replace any of it, yet... Probably good for 10X.
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)
01 January 2011, 00:46
.458 OnlyTinker;
PRIMERS: WLRM. The only primer I ever use!
Bob
www.bigbores.ca
"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT)
01 January 2011, 00:48
a.tinkererI use the same brass and primer for the .458
Thanks Again
Tinker
_________________________________
Self appointed Colonel, DRSS
01 January 2011, 01:59
a.tinkererOk, looked at the mag box on the Whitworth.
I have about 3.410" to work with.
What is your trim length at a COL of 3.45?
What kind of powder compression are you getting with that load?
Can you either measure one of those TSX 350gr bullets and tell me what the base of bullet to bottom of first groove measurement is, or send me one in the mail?
I wonder what the measurements are on the lighter tipped bullet.
I'd be happy to max out the magazine box space with cartridge length if that gets me ideal powder load density and overall length with a cartridge that's accurate in my rifle and swift enough out of the muzzle to do good work outside 300yds.
Cheers
Tinker
_________________________________
Self appointed Colonel, DRSS
