The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .458 Lott vs. .470 Nitro ExpressGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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What are the differences in these calibers? Is there a difference in recoil? Is there a much of a difference in killing power in anyone's experience? Thanks. | ||
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Ganyana's done excellent write ups on these cartridges: Look at the 450 NE article and the Lott/Watts article gs | |||
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IMO, not a lot of difference in killing power between a 458 Lott and a 470 N.E.....and anyone that thinks there is its gotta be mostly in throry and in their mind.... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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1: yes, the 470 is meant for a double gun and runs at much lower pressure, for a 500 gr at 2150 2: not that most people would notice, given that a double gun has more FELT recoil than a bolt gun 3: not alot, though i've heard it said the 470 has more "impact" and the lott goes deeper jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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could always build a 470 capstick and get the best of both worlds | |||
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.500 Nitro offers a distinct step up in power (and recoil), however. | |||
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Like Ray, I don't think there is a measurable difference in the killing power between the 470NE, and the 458LOTT. They both kill like the hammer of Thor, if placed properly. Nothing shot from the shoulder will kill well with an off center hole drilled in a Buff. I believe bot the 470NE, and 458LOTT can be loaded down and still kill VERY well! Jeffe, says there is more felt recoil in a double rifle than in a bolt rifle, and I assume he means chambered for the same cartridge. I disagree! The double rifle is usually heavier that a bolt rifle, and the recoil is dirrected in a different way in each. A bolt rifle with a lot of drop in the stock will have more "FELT" recoil that the same rifle with a strighter stock. Most doubles not only weigh more, but usually have a larger footprint on the recoil pad, than most bolt rifles, to spread the impact out over a larger area on one's shoulder. The double rifle also recoils, not only back, and up, but to the side as well, spreading out the effect of the recoil dissipateing the punch you recieve. The absolute worse FELT recoil, for it's size, comes from a little mod 94 Winchester 30-30. That little saddel gun, that most people buy for their wife, or child, has given me more bloody noses than any big rifle I've ever shot, and I shoot some big rifles!  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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I've used both rounds on big critters and find them to be just about ditto in the killing department. My .470 is less of a kicker than my .458Lott but that has to do more with rifle weight than anything else. | |||
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Rip, Your lever gun actually makes the point, that the drop and pad make it feel like more. doubles have more drop on the whole, and the left barrel will crack your check more than the right will.... opinions vary, though It was either you or 500 grains that nearly had me convinced to build an nyati a couple years ago, as I had gone back and shot richard's 577.. his weighed 14.? # and kicked the snot (litterally) out of me... Rob's nyati last year FELT like 3/4 or 4/5 of that recoil, weighing 3 # less and going 280FPS faster... Then again, the lott is burning far less powder. assuming a 10.5# gun, if loaded to 2150, a fella would know the 470 kicked him more... more powder, more drop, more crack on the second shot. he would also know the double is 15X faster on second shot, assuming it fit him jeffe jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Drop: needed in any gun to seperate barrel rise and straight back recoil, half up and half back is the best route IMO...needed for iron sight shooting and off hand shooting... All guns need enough drop to fit the shooters build...straight stocks are a menace to society and strictly for scope shooting, but there is a happy medium in there, any gun can have too much of either or not enough of either.... A properly stocked double will recoil less than a properly stocked bolt action rifle of the same caliber... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray You are known for having a decent, but not high recoil tolerence, I am known as a recoil sponge. I am telling you a fact, I can NOT effectively shoot a 14# 577 double (that was decently close to fitting me, btw) while I could take game with an 11# 585 nyati, that weighed THREE POUNDS LESS and went 280fps faster with a 750 gr woodleigh bullet. The 585 didn't come CLOSE to fitting me, it was built for a fella 8" shorter than me. Back to this subject IF- Same caliber, Shoot TWO rounds, make them weigh the same and the double kicks more, every time. Here's why. Drop... A bolt gun with 3/4 of an inch of drop is fine for irons, and 1.25" drop falls into SEVERE drop... a double with 3/4" of drop would have an UGLY clunky stock due to the nature and requirements of stocking a double to fit the shooters hands and not cutting them on the trigger guard. Since the double is at least 2 degree out of the centerline (the sanding breech angle) effectively increase drop more. Bolt guns generally have less drop than double guns. Period.. weight double guns generally weigh MORE than a bolt gun recoil/torque plane bolt gun recoils IN the plane, double guns rotate out of BOTH sides... left barrel is INside the shooters face... effectively increasing cast ON. As everyone in the world knows, cast ON is recoil IN the face Jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I think a bolt gun has less felt recoil than a double. My .585 nyati bolt gun was not much harder to shoot than my .500 NE double. | |||
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Dan, that is interesting, but does your .500 double have recoil redusers like your Nyati? Bent Fossdal Reiso 5685 Uggdal Norway | |||
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And a 470 mbogo, loaded down to 2150, in a 10# gun, kicks nothing like as hard as a 470 NE merkel jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I have never shot an elephant with the 470 Nitro but have shot several with the 465 H&H. other than a 20 gr difference in bullet weight and a .006 difference in bullet diameter they should have similar penetration and thump effect. I also have never shot an elephant with the standard 500 gr, 458 Lott load at 2300 fps. But I have shot several with the 550 Gr Woodleigh solid at 2150 fps. In my experience the 550 gr. Lott bullet hits with a noticeably greater thump and definately penetrates much deeper then the Woodleigh 480 gr. 465. I have shot a fair number of the 465H&H bullets into elephant heads and have never had one completly penetrate the head on a side brain shot. The 458 Lott bullets have all fully penetrated ele heads on side or top down head shots. For you sd fans the 550 gr 458 bullet has a sd of 371 compared to the 341 of the 500 gr bullet. Although the Lott weighs 1 lb more then the 465 and has a mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock, it kicks noticably more then my 10 lb 465H&H. 465H&H | |||
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Alf, This statement is at it's best is an underestimation and at it's worst a gross exageration. My question to you is have you used both rounds on buffalo or elephant? I have. There are several monometals you can shoot in a double. And none which you can't shoot in a Searcy. (Not a contention but a fact!) The Lott is a by far a more sensible round when it comes to cost and components, no doubt. But they are about the same in killing ability and striking force. With the edge going to a hot loaded Lott but it's not much. I shoot 500Gr Barnes X and Solids through my Searcy well over 500rnds of them at the current time with out any problems what so ever. | |||
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Bent, no it does not have mercury. | |||
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Alf, I have no doubt that the Federals did what they did. I've had less than stellar performance with round nose woodleigh solids as well. The point that I am making is that yes, in a modern double you can shoot mono metal solids at near the same velocities that a .458Lott can. And that even if your double is shooting slower than a Lott it's not slower enough to make a hill of beans difference. | |||
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Those Federal FMJs are made by Woodleigh. But be careful what you say, or you may step on the toes of the Woodleigh fans at http://www.nitroexpress.com 
Welcome onto the Flat Nose Solid bandwagon! Interesting data point: I found that a .500 NE shooting a 570 grain FN solid at 2150 fps generally gives deeper penetration than a 470 Capstick shooting a 500 grain FN solid at 2300 fps. Is it because the larger meplat of the .500 NE solid more than overcomes the greater velocity advantage of the Capstick round? Perhaps supercavitation is influenced more by meplat size than muzzle velocity. | |||
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Alf, Just how many animals have you shot with each?? based on your emails I'd say none, correct me if I am wrong.... I have shot a number of buffalo with both calibers and it is my opinnion the .470 is the quicker and better killer of the two... I wouldn't swear to that, but I belive it and credit it to the cross section of the .470 bullet and my kills are my testimony...Maybe some have had a different experience but I sure believe you to be wrong for the most part. Granted its close and could go either way I suppose and I doubt that it makes much difference one way or the other since both are fantastic rounds, but to just state outright the 458 Lott kills better than a .470 is just not right. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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I have not used the Lott on Buffalo however I have used my 450 Dakota. I load to about 2350 to 2400 FPS...these are not max loads but should be similar to the Lott. In my experience with that gun and my Searcy 470, the 470 seems to put more hurt on the animal. I have no idea why but that is how it appears to me. Both guns kill animals but the 470 seems to give more initial shock. My theory is that the 450 has too much velocity and the bullets pass without loosing much energy. The 470 will still pass through but maybe more energy is transfered to the animal....No science just my own view. I have taken 3 buff with the 470 and 2 with the 450. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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Ray, Can you help me sort out these two statements?
opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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I really have to agree. I have read alot of different threads, and I really appreciate and respect Ray's opinions, but this is not the first time I can't keep up with which big bores you prefer. I read alot of contradicting statements from the .416 to all the way to the .470 and everything in between. I hope you wwill clarify. | |||
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Alf, OK, look at this way..... A Searcy .470 is a 500 gr. .475 cal bullet regulated for 2245 FPS ..... A 458 Lott is a .458 cal 500 gr. bullet at 2300 FPS (most load it down to 2250 FPS btw).... The cross section of the 475 cal bullet puts it over the top of the 50 FPS plus of the Lott when the Lott is loaded to the hilt, and the 470 is at low pressure for what thats worth.... Now, if a Buffalo or elephant can tell the difference I have no clue, but then we have jumped off into the ridiculas world of theroy have we not, inasmuch as one is as good as the other for all practical purposes, correct me if I am wrong  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Lott .... .470.... no Lott......no .470....No Lott.....No .470.... I can't eat....I can't sleep... F....CK!!!!!!!!! | |||
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If you are serious about DG hunting, get the .470 because then you will have the advantage of a double. | |||
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Anyone seen a CZ 589 O/U double rifle in 458 win Mag? They cost about 3K and how accurate does it have to be at 25 yrds anyway? I picked one up a year ago with the idea of reaming it to a LOTT. Never got a chance to shoot it yet. The thing weighs 8.1 lbs and while it will kick like a mule, it's so light you can carry it forever and It's a double! I am seriously considering making another set of barrels for it in .470NE. Super lightweight barrel profile. Sure it will kick but so what, I'm not interested in a range queen, but rather a light fast handling hunting machine. That fast second shot( only possible with a double or gasp( a semi-auto .470 capstick/.458 lott BAR( too bad it's not legal in Africa, although they would never know) is not to be underestimated. On my ELE hunt, I believe that was the critical difference between success and failure when things go wrong( and they do). -Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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Rob, Sounds like we need to run some 3" brass into that chamber and run em 2200 fps!! You seen you email? heh jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Couldn't that CZ O/U .458 be a candidate for the 458 Hubel, which is a 3.5 inch (or so) version of the .458 Lott? My only concern would be that those ultra-long cartridges would bend under the weight of their own bullet. | |||
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Alf, Lions and Landrovers don't count!  Last year I used a light load of 85 grs of RL-15 with a 5 grain filler and 500 gr. North fork Cup points and Woodleigh softs in my 470 for a velocity of 2020 FPS....It simply knocked the big ugly black bulls off their feet, every one I shot stuck all four feet in my direction and never got up...based on this that wonderfull Sarasquetta should be just the ticket... I passed on a Sarasquetta in .470 with case with all the bells and whistles about 10 years ago in a pawn shop for $5000, something I had second thoughts about and ran back down to get it the following day and it was gone...He who hesitates is lost...  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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500grains- Yup, I had the same sick idea. I just proofed the gun with the Lott chambering at approx. 80Kpsi. It will definately take a beating. It's build Hella strong. It has two locking lugs protruding through the bottom of the frame. The foreward one huge and a greener style top crossbolt (wedge shaped to boot). The 589 just looks stout. If ED ever gets his hands on one he'd be in heaven. We should see if we could organize a group buy from CZ. I'll bet they would go for it.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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A 470 Capstick should shoot a 500g bullet 100 fps faster than a 458 Lott. You gain a little frontal area and velocity and lose a little sectional density. Both cases are about the same capacity. I've read the ghost shoulder helps feeding and accuracy as well. 470 Capstick is where I'm headed ...  Chuck Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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.If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Chuck 470 capstick, at 2400, runs at higher pressure than the lott. the rule of them is 25% of any increase .. essentially the same case, and 3.7% larger diameter .. which means, basically, 1% at the same pressure and bullet..., which is 2322 vs 2300 In reality, it is the same as the lott .. jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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As to recoil between the two..I wonder if the twisting motion of a double adds to this equasion with some..I know it bothered me when I first started shooting doubles but it went away in time. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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From my experience the 458 Win at 9 1/2 lbs recoils less with Federal Sledge hammer factory loads than my 10 1/2 lb Searcy 470 with 500 grain Wooleighs at 2,150 fps. My Lott with 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps has far more recoil than the 470. 465H&H | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .458 Lott vs. .470 Nitro Express
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...........Even some A-Sq. rifles couldn,t reach 2300 fps when tested by Finn Aggaard around the time the rifle came out .......I think he got about 2250 fps with the 500 gr TriAd factory ammo ....