quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Ray
You are known for having a decent, but not high recoil tolerence, I am known as a recoil sponge. I am telling you a fact, I can NOT effectively shoot a 14# 577 double (that was decently close to fitting me, btw) while I could take game with an 11# 585 nyati, that weighed THREE POUNDS LESS and went 280fps faster with a 750 gr woodleigh bullet. The 585 didn't come CLOSE to fitting me, it was built for a fella 8" shorter than me.

I've shot .577 doubles that weighed in that range. While not pleasant, they were definitely short of unshootable. I've never shot an 11 lb. 585 Nyati, nor would I ever do so under any circumstances. There would be no point, I'd never be able to shoot it acceptably.

quote:

Back to this subject IF-
Same caliber, Shoot TWO rounds, make them weigh the same and the double kicks more, every time.

I couldn't disagree with you more there, as I've so reliably found the exact opposite opposite to be true. I shoot large bore doubles a lot, and rarely find one that I don't enjoy. I avoid large bore bolt rifles because I find them so unpleasant to shoot. I don't even particularly like shooting bolt action .375s.

quote:

Here's why.

Drop...
A bolt gun with 3/4 of an inch of drop is fine for irons, and 1.25" drop falls into SEVERE drop... a double with 3/4" of drop would have an UGLY clunky stock due to the nature and requirements of stocking a double to fit the shooters hands and not cutting them on the trigger guard. Since the double is at least 2 degree out of the centerline (the sanding breech angle) effectively increase drop more. Bolt guns generally have less drop than double guns. Period.

Lots of misconceptions and myths here. Drop alone has little to do with felt recoil.

quote:

weight
double guns generally weigh MORE than a bolt gun

Not if both are built to a proper weight, but yeah, most large bore bolt rifles are built too light for caliber.

recoil/torque plane

quote:

bolt gun recoils IN the plane, double guns rotate out of BOTH sides... left barrel is INside the shooters face... effectively increasing cast ON. As everyone in the world knows, cast ON is recoil IN the face.

Jeffe, your post here is a gross overgeneralization. Sure, with bad fit and poor stock design, a big bore rifle can certainly hit you in the face. That's the part of recoil transmitted to the shooter that accumulates quickest, so it's the part that's the most important to eliminate. But, fit and stock design don't have to be bad.

For a shotgun or an iron sighted rifle, some drop is necessary to properly fit most individual shooters so that proper alignment is achieved with a fast, natural mount - Ray is right, it's just a fact of life. My own double rifles, and others that fit me well, have a lot of drop, and I need it. Correct fit - adequate drop and correct cast (on/off for left/right handed shooter) - and proper stock design (the long, tapered comb of the British design), completely eliminates face slap. My own DRs and others that fit me and have properly designed stocks NEVER hit me in the face, despite having considerable drop and my having a rather broad face. I would never tolerate a large bore rifle that did that to me, period. I find large bores fun to shoot, but not when they whack me in the face. And no, there isn't the slightest difference in felt recoil between right and left barrels.

With either type rifle, if the stock hits you in the face, it doesn't fit, or the stock is of poor design, or both, period. With good fit and good design, even when an individual shooter requires significant drop for correct fit, it simply doesn't happen.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Jeffe,Lightening,
I did say there is not a lot of difference between the two calibers and the difference would be in the mind of the beholder,as per your quotes.

I also said the .470 was a better killer on the buffalo that I personally had shot with both calibers IMO, probably about 6 or 8 with the .470 and more with the Lott..NOw that is in my mind as the beholder as I said. To makea point here, consider the fact that I came to the conclusion long ago that the 416 Rem and .404 killed about as well as anything, and in my mind I know that can't be right, but so far it has!

I could shoot another given number of buffalo and very easily come to an opposite conclusion, its just too close to call, but for now I am going with the .470.

If you want pat answers on killing big game, then your on another planet..I am not sure in my mind that a properly used .375 isn't as effective as a 458 Lott or .470 for that matter, but I think the .470 and Lott are better, but again that may just be in my mind because Harry Manners believed that about the .375 H&H and shot a lot more elephant than I, as did Bell with his 7x57...I would not challange either of them.

It's all just opinions and opinions can change from hunt to hunt...

If your still confused then you will have to live with it, I have for years when it comes to guns, calibers and killing power..

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I have never shot an elephant with the 470 Nitro but have shot several with the 465 H&H. other than a 20 gr difference in bullet weight and a .006 difference in bullet diameter they should have similar penetration and thump effect. I also have never shot an elephant with the standard 500 gr, 458 Lott load at 2300 fps. But I have shot several with the 550 Gr Woodleigh solid at 2150 fps. In my experience the 550 gr. Lott bullet hits with a noticeably greater thump and definately penetrates much deeper then the Woodleigh 480 gr. 465. I have shot a fair number of the 465H&H bullets into elephant heads and have never had one completly penetrate the head on a side brain shot. The 458 Lott bullets have all fully penetrated ele heads on side or top down head shots. For you sd fans the 550 gr 458 bullet has a sd of 371 compared to the 341 of the 500 gr bullet. Although the Lott weighs 1 lb more then the 465 and has a mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock, it kicks noticably more then my 10 lb 465H&H.

465H&H

I think that the 470, for which nominal velocity of 500grs at 2150 was recorded in a 31" barrel, is more comparable to the 458wm than the Lott. And either is plenty enough for anything.

465H&H,

You observations are interesting. Here are mine.

Two .458" 500gr Woodleighs at 2050fps failed to exit a cow on side brain shots, stopping at the off side zygomatic arch. One exited the skull on a cow front on.

Every 500gr Woodleigh at 2145fps exited cow skulls side on or front on. Two exited bull skulls front on and several more exited bull skulls side on for insurance shots, none stopped in a skull from either angle.

Every 450gr NF has exited cow skulls regardless of angle. I have yet to use NF's on a bull.

About 2/3rds of Woodleighs at 2145fps exit cows on side on heart shots, every NF has exited.

Neither of two Woodleighs at 2145fps exited bulls on side on heart shots.

JPK

JPK,
Since I made that post two years ago I have taken 5 elephants with the 470 Nitro using 500 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps. Unfortunately none were side brain shots. Three were frontal brain and two were body shots. Only one exited on a frontal and it came out behind the ear on the neck.

465H&H

465H&H

465H&H,

Geez, I didn't realize that this one was dug up from long ago.

FYI, when I say, "exited the skull," I don't neccesarily mean exited the whole of the elephant, just the rear of the skull on a frontal, etc. Might have found it back in the neck or, especially in the case of NF's, they might have actually exited the ele.

Thanks for the update. It looks like I will have an opportunity to try some NF's on a bull or two this year. I will try a couple of side on body shots for "insurance shots" just to see if they exit.

JPK

I have never taken an elephant with a 458, so im just following this thread here but you guys might be interested in a book I read, yall may have read it already I dont know, anyway it is by Ron Thompson (his first book) who used to work for the parks in Zimbabwe. I do not know him but his book about elephant hunting is wonderfully informative from a hunting standpoint as well as a wildlife management standpoint. Do not quote me here but I believe he shot somewhere between 5000 and 8000 elephant culling. Whether or not that is the number is mute, the point is he shot a hell of a lot of them! He was a proponet of the 458 WM. One specific story in his book was about 7 or 8 bulls walking in a line past him. He waited until they were halfway past then started shooting. He shot all of them. What made this interesting was the observation that any bull closer than @ 20 yds the bullets did not exit the brain, and the ones further than this distance they did!! He notice it while he was shooting the bulls. He could hear the bam! whock! whirr! of the bullet hitting, exiting and whirring through the air. On the close bulls it was just Bam! Whock!..... He attributed it to the yaw of the bullet at the shorter distance. The bullet had not stabilized before 20 yds and therefore used up a lot of its penetrating energy while going through the skull in a less than straight fashion, whereas the bullet beyond 20 yds was stabilized so that when it hit an elephant it had all of its energy behing its axis to bore a straight hole completely through the skull and exit. Just though it might be someting you guys would find interesting. I will look at the book and verify my facts and get the title for yall.

Not sure that any of that in his book about the 458 WM ammo, etc., is relevant today.

Will,

That is total BS. Even if only to point out that today's loads far exceed those Thomson used with complete success.

Thomson indicate ~4000 eles, Harland indicates more, I call it ~9000 between them, neither had a problem with the 500grers at ~2050fps. And that is chicken shit to today's 458wm.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Will,

That is total BS. Even if only to point out that today's loads far exceed those Thomson used with complete success.

Thomson indicate ~4000 eles, Harland indicates more, I call it ~9000 between them, neither had a problem with the 500grers at ~2050fps. And that is chicken shit to today's 458wm.

JPK

Huh?

quote:

The absolute worse FELT recoil, for it's size, comes from a little mod 94 Winchester 30-30. That little saddel gun, that most people buy for their wife, or child, has given me more bloody noses than any big rifle I've ever shot, and I shoot some big rifles! beer

Could not agree more. Damn glad to hear this from someone else...

100% agreement. We'll be swaping Christmas cards next.

Remember those suckers with the steel butplate.
Now I have a $70 pad and it still boots.

Will,

Your right some of us don't live on the same planet!

I read that 30-30 "felt recoil" thang in a magazine 20 years ago, it didn't make since then and still doesn't...This is something that came out in print and has been floating around out there for years and quoted with gay abandon ever since, mostly used by those that have not shot a 30-30 in years or never have shot one...If the 30-30 kicks I'll eat my hat without salt.

Tell me I'm right, please

Got a .30-30 T/C Contender Carbine that is lighter than any Win94 I've ever owned. It doesn't kick much at all, and still seems to kick less tha a Win94! I guess I'd chalk it up to the stock.

Could be -- my 1895CB weighs about the same as my Mark X 458 Win mag -- and I'd much rather shoot a win mag than a garret 45-70 -- I can shoot that CB very well, if for no other reason than I shot it quite a bit, but the back end of it hurts.

you gentlemen should all know that the .470, along with the others is merely a wartime expedient. British gunmakers had to find different calibers than .458" because of some civil unrest, and the .450 parent case is a good size for a DR.

I think the Lott is going to be the winner here, simply based on the cost of a 470DR.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
you gentlemen should all know that the .470, along with the others is merely a wartime expedient. British gunmakers had to find different calibers than .458" because of some civil unrest, and the .450 parent case is a good size for a DR.

The rest of the .470 group (.465, .475, .475 No. 2, .476 WR) were indeed, but the .470 was not. Although it initially failed, the .470 was introduced before the enforcement errors with the .450s in India arose. The .450 crisis led to the creation of the others in 1907, and also revived the .470. The parent case is the .500, not the .450.
------------------------------------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

The absolute worse FELT recoil, for it's size, comes from a little mod 94 Winchester 30-30.

Me too!!!

Just take a peek at the price difference for a quality rifle and 20 pack of ammo!

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
100% agreement. We'll be swaping Christmas cards next.

Remember those suckers with the steel butplate.
Now I have a &70 pad and it still boots.

Damn 30/30 carbine nearly had me too skeered to shoot anything bigger than my rubber band gun until I hit puberty.

Aren't your x-mas's during my July? Don't know how we'd work out the logistics there.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Will,

Your right some of us don't live on the same planet!

I read that 30-30 "felt recoil" thang in a magazine 20 years ago, it didn't make since then and still doesn't...This is something that came out in print and has been floating around out there for years and quoted with gay abandon ever since, mostly used by those that have not shot a 30-30 in years or never have shot one...If the 30-30 kicks I'll eat my hat without salt.

Tell me I'm right, please

My old mans' oldman's oldman's 94' 30/30 carbine with the little saddle ring and the metal butt plate may not have much "recoil", but it's about as comfortable to shoot as a kick in the crotch. Feels like getting popped in the shoulder with the business end of a battle ax.

I've shot damn near everything thats shootable including CANNON( real big ones too). Saddle ring 30-30 winchesters simply have NO PERCEPTIBLE RECOIL PERIOD. Thats a MYTHBUSTERS missed opportunity and ranks as a urban legend I think the .470 NE is by far sexier than the .458 Lott and kills just as well. There are a whole bunch of dead critters here who can attest to that. A crappy stock kicks way more than a properly fitting one. If you don't know how to hold and shoot a big bore it will hurt you. THE worst kicking gun I have ever enountered is the .600NE Heym bolt action. Everything about that guns design is flat wrong. Doubles don't kick more than bolt guns inherently. Its all in the design and experience level of the shooter.-.585 NYATI's and .600OK,s in a properly designed gun fired by a experienced shooter DO NOT GENERATE LEVELS OF RECOIL UNMANAGEABLE BY MEER MORTALS. I wish I had a dollar for evryone who said " WOW that wasn't bad at all".-Rob

quote:

I've shot damn near everything thats shootable including CANNON( real big ones too). Saddle ring 30-30 winchesters simply have NO PERCEPTIBLE RECOIL PERIOD. Thats a MYTHBUSTERS missed opportunity and ranks as a urban legend

You may have shot cannons (I'm sure the recoil must have been terrible...?) and "damn near everything that's shootable", but you haven't shot my m94 30/30. By stating that it is a flat out myth that a 30/30 could have painful recoil, you're essentially calling me, Mac and a few other fellas here liars... needless to say, you're gross generalization is incorrect and I am not lying. Why would I claim that my old 30/30 stings to shoot if it weren't true?

Biggest thing I've shot is a 505 Gibbs, and I have and do shoot a 458 Lott. Yes, the recoil from these rifles is not comparable to my 30/30, but that does not mean that shooting my little carbine isn't a bitch.

You might claim that I'm shooting it incorrectly yada, yada, yada, but again, you would be mistaken. It's simply proof to me that misaligned stock design, metal butt plates, and rifles that don't fit (gun probably fit my great grandad who was 8 inches shorter than me, and he also complained about its recoil) make for rough recoil.

Now, more along the lines of the thread... I don't see that any animal, whether it be a dik dik or an ele, would notice the difference between a 470 and a 458 Lott. So many times I've read statements by many of the very experienced members of this forum that a 375 is as effective as a 458. I believe there is a thread related to this on the African Forum. A brain shot is a brain shot, and a gut shot is a gut shot. That said, a shot to the lungs or heart will be more effective more immediately by a bigger caliber rifle IMO. I don't personally believe that there is a substantial enough difference in caliber between the 475 and the 458 bullets. If you blind folded me I couldn't tell the difference in my hands, and the poor sucker on the receiving end of the bullet probably couldn't either.... Just my opinion.

Fellas,
i think what rob meant to say is that "while the recoil values of the leveraction 30/30 are low, certainly the ergonomics of it are unpleasant to shoot, which confirm my position that stock design and fit are far more critical to felt recoil than the absolute value of the recoiling rifle"

Jeese, why argue about it?

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Jeese, why argue about it?

Ditto. Do you guys really give a shit about this?

LMAO! I'd never dream of calling you a liar, just guilty of gross exageration due to recoil induced dementia! Your right, I don't give a shit about 30-30's. -Rob

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 465H&H:
From my experience the 458 Win at 9 1/2 lbs recoils less with Federal Sledge hammer factory loads than my 10 1/2 lb Searcy 470 with 500 grain Wooleighs at 2,150 fps. My Lott with 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps has far more recoil than the 470.

How much does your Lott rifle weigh?

It weighs 10 1/2 lbs. with out scope.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Fellas,
i think what rob meant to say is that "while the recoil values of the leveraction 30/30 are low, certainly the ergonomics of it are unpleasant to shoot, which confirm my position that stock design and fit are far more critical to felt recoil than the absolute value of the recoiling rifle"

Well said, my point exactly.

Also, you fellas are right... I shouldn't give a squat whether my 30/30 kicks. I've just now realized the that I need to stop the bleeding here and quit emasculating myself by continuing to contend that a 30/30 stings.

Wow, I need someone to kick me in the junk quick ... admitting to such sissiness on this forum! Sorry fellas, won't happen again. I'll go tape tacks to the butt of my Lott and shoot it silly until my senses come back.

And to think, Sutherland, an itty bitty tea sip, toted and shot those big 577's like I do my bb gun.

"Wow, I need someone to kick me in the junk quick "

that had me going

John

hey Maddenwh,

you coming to Houston? If you are, stop at the Nimitz Museum and get me a gray or blue XXL T-shirt. Mine finally washed and weared itself into a cleaning patch. I went to Ken Oehler's M43 school, right after he announced the intro of the unit.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

My 30-30 is a saddle ring carbine and I guess someone has been stealing powder out of it, it is about like shooting a bb gun IMO...I'm with Rob the day a 30-30 is uncomfortable to shoot I'm going to hang up my badge partner!

If your thumb is hitting your nose then move your thumb. My 12 year old daughter shoots my 30-30, my grandson shot deer with it when he was 9 and so did I for that matter.

I am not calling anyone a liar, please believe that, just a wuss!

I guess I'm interested in this thread, since I've always planned to rebarrel my 375 H&H up to a bigger caliber once I got used to shooting my 375. For us bolt action guys, a 470 Capstick loaded to 470 NE performance (500g bullet at 2150) seems a nice step up from 375 H&H. About 50% more recoil, given that my 375 is a pussycat, that's not bad There are some nice .475 caliber cast bullets and 325 and 400g XTP jacketed bullets for light practice loads. There are those lovely Swift-Aframes, Dead Toughs and Monolithic Solids for full power loads. Anyway, it's where I'm probably headed next winter after I hunt with my 375 this year.

Regards,
Chuck

You ought to leave the 375H&H alone. It will do for any game and is the most versitile of cartridges. Everyone should own one.

Try looking for a second hand Lott or so and either live with it or rebarrel it.

By the way, actual nominal performance of the 470 is 2125fps but from a 31" barrel. Most vintage rifles are doing well if they make 2050 or 2100fps since they don't have the barrel length.

My 2 cents worth.

JPK

I would go with the Lott rather than the Capstick. Although the larger bullet diameter is an advantage for the Capstick the ability to use the 550 grain Woodleigh at 2,150 to 2,200 fps in the Lott is a huge advantage in my book. It will give you greater penetration and nearly equal stopping power to the 570 grain bullet out of the 500 Nitro.

465H&H