Who here "double bags" when shooting their big bores? (ie. muffs and plugs)

I just got back from a visit to the Ear/Nose/Throat specialist in town. I have tinnitus pretty bad (I think, it sure is annoying) and told the guy I am really cautious while shooting....I always "double bag" when I am at the range, and pack plugs with me while hunting.

He tells me that "double bagging" is not as good as just muffs alone. Reduces the "air insulation" inside the muffs, or something to that effect.

I am not sure I believe him.

Anyone else (is there a Doctor in the house?) have any thoughts on this?

Cheers,
Canuck

I have had to start using both plugs and muffs before I go 100% deaf. When the noise very loud the combination is far more effective.

Another thing is that when I put my cheek on the stock it lifts the muff some on that side. I try to be careful about that but with a low scope it lifts it anyway.

It makes no sense what so ever that plugs and muffs are not more effective than just muffs. I have muffs with the mic. in them and it helps me understand when someone says something.

My hearing is very bad now.

I'm no expert but I always use both at the range. In my experience it certainly seems more noise gets through with just the muffs.

Unbelievable! What nonsense--and from someone who should know better, too.

Forgive me for mentioning it, but the legal term for that kind of advice is "malpractice."

I always double up, even with .22s.

I don't wear muffs since I can't get on the stock when using them, just plugs.

The muffs and plugs do not protect the same hearing mechanisms. The plugs protect the inner ear, which is about half of one's hearing. The muffs protect the bone structure below and partially around the ear, which is where the rest of one's hearing is coming from. At least that's what my friends who are audiologists and ear surgeons tell me. That's why both are necessary to protect one's hearing the best, too, according to them.

Are you sure your doctor is actually a doctor? Seems to me he maybe should know more than he appears to about how human hearing actually works.

i wear both...

plugs are "enough" protection for a shot or two, and muffs are better if there's only one...

but I wear custom inserts from hogkiller and 31db muffs... i am VERY protective of my hearing... I even wear tehm when I am working in my shop, one or the other

jeffe

Huh... Whudyasay? Yep I double bag every time I remember to bring both. Hope I can hear the jokes my pals tell next week. Hope I can't hear my wife bitchin between now and bedtime. Selective hearing can be a good thing.

I always "double bag".

I wear glasses [dont we all?] and they prevent an adequate seal by the muff type protection.

Les

I use both at the range and fitted plugs hunting. I have been thinking of getting one of the custom hearing aid type. From E.A.R inc or Walker tied into a fitted plug. That would allow me to hear and still block the BANG.

Anyone have any experience and/or preference?

I use plugs and muffs. I can tell a noticeable difference in the level of the noise when using both. I have considerable hearing loss in my left ear and my right ear isn't doing to good either. My hearing loss is hereditary and not related to firing guns, although I think that shooting contributed some. I want to protect it as much as possible. The Dr. I saw about my hearing loss suggested the doubling up, saying that you don't get double the protection, but doubling up does increase the protection over just using plugs or just muffs.
I don't claim any expertise in this area, and am relying on advice of others.
This is from someone that is struggling every day with a hearing problem, that will never get better and a hearing aid won't help. Protect your ears. Ask a medical professional you trust, that specializes in hearing loss, what you can do to best protect your ears. It helps if he is a "shooter". Follow his advice.

I use plugs if .22LR only is being shot at range. Use plugs and muffs for all other shooting situations at range. Don't use anything hunting.

I double up and it is a noticable reduction from just one or the other, especially at indoor ranges.

I don't wear anything hunting but am probably going to use custom electronic inserts for duck and goose hunting and volume dove shooting in the next season.

JPK

I use custom ear plugs and Peltor Tac-7S muffs when shooting anything with a brake, my .25-06, and my .300Wby.

Those last two just seem inordinately louder than say, my .270s or 7mmSTWs.

George

quote:

Unbelievable! What nonsense--and from someone who should know better, too.

Thats what I was thinking, especially while he was comparing hearing protection to home insulation.

I have always found the combination of plugs and muffs to sound quieter than either on its own....how can it sound quieter without actually being quieter?

Anyway, the guy is well known for his "nose" work (deviated septums, etc)...I think I'll find someone else that specializes in hearing.

And in the meantime, I'll keep "double bagging"!

Cheers,
Canuck

Speak up a bit, will ya?

I always double bag at the range, but I started too late.

I try to double up when shooting heavy calibers or anything with a port or brake. I found that just going for "NRR", isn't enough. My new muffs keep ALL noise down to 79db and amplify soft noise to 19db. A NRR of 31db is great on a non brake 30/06 but start shooting a 340 or 460Wby mag with a brake and it might not be enough to save your hearing. I regret I didn't use hearing protection in the military.

Always double. I had a test done recently and my chart has some very deep valleys where I have lost hearing. My audiologist says it looks suspiciously like the voice pattern and db level where my wife speaks.
Tinitis is sometimes the result of illness and other factors. I got it particularly bad when I used to drink too much caffeine. Either in coffee or especially when having Jolt- Cola with all the sugar and twice the caffeine.
While at Cal Expo, I talked with and was fitted for digital inner ear insert. It has a "spike" mode which works faster than the speed of sound and shuts down at the clap of the shot. He said unfortunately that it offers no protection against the concussion of large calibers on the outer ear as mentioned above.
I feel that all the protection possible is better than the lower limits. Good luck
Frank

Well gentlemen, I shot all my life up till the age of 17 yrs, without noticable damage to my hearing! Then they crammed me down in a turret of a Quad 50 cal, on a m-16 half track, and said start shooting those airplanes down! I can still remember the first time I pressed the trigger on thos four 50 call two on each side of my head, 12" from myuncovered ears! That hurt like hell, and after the initial fight of about an hour, my ears have rung like a police siren ever since! In the early 1950s, the army had no idea hearing protection existed. Working around running jet ingines for 31 yrs didn't help out much either, along with a total of 63 yrs of shooting .

My hearing is gone for the most part, and I have to use a GAME EAR II, in each ear so I can hear the games movement in the long grass, as well as commands from my PH. Everywhere else I simply don't hear much. At the range I use very good muffs, and plugs as well, but like someone already said, I did that too late!

quote:

Tinitis is sometimes the result of illness and other factors. I got it particularly bad when I used to drink too much caffeine. Either in coffee or especially when having Jolt- Cola with all the sugar and twice the caffeine.

Frank,

Did the tinitis go away if you cut out the caffiene?

I know I am caffiene sensitive (I get irregular heartbeats if I really over do it), but never related the tinitis to it.

Cheers,
Canuck

I started out not using any protection at rock concerts and later on extending that same practise to shooting.

The result is a severe tinnitus (which doesn´t bother me anymore) an hearing loss.

The military in Finland always "double bag" recruits if they do heavy shooting.

I just use my Peltors, I really don´t have much left to loose.

I used to wear just plugs, because I had trouble shooting with muffs on. But then I developed a chronic infection in my right ear. Ear drops and antibiotics didn't help (in fact, one course of antibiotic ear drops made it worse, because I had an allergic reaction).

My doctor told me that it was likely because of using the foam ear plugs. He told me to stick with the muffs. Problem cleared up and have been fine since.

It's funny about the tinnitus. One day, all of a sudden, it just started.

I remember the exact moment. And then I had headaches and fatigue symptoms for a while.

It hasn't stopped since that day, but my headaches and fatigue symptoms have stopped and eventually I reached the point where I stopped noticing the ringing as much, or even at all, most of the time.

Except at times like now, when I'm thinking about it, when I hear it clearly!

But it doesn't seem sensitive to anything I eat or drink.

Like RaySendero I use plugs only for .22 rimfire (not including the .22 Mag) and both or double bagged for all else. Have lost too much hearing already, and can't afford any further loss. I do know however that more is inevitable as time takes it's toll on body parts.

More beer please

I had many ear infections as a small child and then shooting, electric guitars, trucks, farm equip, const. equip. hot rods, pistols, and close shotguns and my ears ring 24-7. now I ride frieght trains and try to save what little is left. loud noise is painfull and I use plugs to bird hunt. we thought we would just get used to it back in the 70's. how wrong we were!will be 50 in Nov. and have had ringing for 15 yrs.

Mathsr, Why would hearing aides not help? It sounds like you have nerve damage. I certainly do along with a severe hearing deficit.

I wear in-the-canal aides in each ear. They help a lot. I still can't hear well, but I can hear. also, they have sound supressors designed to close off at high decibles - just like the amplifier muffs. I wear both at the range allowing me to hear but still shoot with protection - I think. :-)

Texas Hunter, the Dr. said that while I have some loss that could be attributed to loud noises such as shooting and working conditions, the main problem is that I can hear the tones, I just can't interpret what they mean. They don't know why. After about $5000.00 worth of test and an MRI that probably caused me more loss, he told me I was dang near deaf in one ear and couldn't hear good with the other. He said that I could spend thousands of dollars on hearing aids and they would just make the noise I hear louder. He said not to waste my money on hearing aids, that they wouldn't help my situation at all. So I took the money I was going to spend on hearing aids and bought a new set of muff type protectors and while I was in the gun shop, I bought a new rifle too. Felt better all the way home.

I really wish people would quit mentioning tinnitus. Every time I see that word my ears start ringing

Close your eyes Mathsr, the "t-word" is coming:

There is a form of therapy originating in the US that utilizes some sort of "learning not to hear the tinnitus", no couches or stuff like that but different cognitive/biofeedback/relaxation techniques. Look into it if you like, I hear it´s quite successive -around 80%.

Caffeine makes my tinnitus louder, most painkillers aggravate it (ibuprofene in large doses, aspirin is well known for giving ringing in the ears at larger doses).

Contact a larger clinic for info on the tratment or try Google for tinnitus and therapy.

Buying a new rifle is always great therapy!

Canuck, yes it does go away if I stay away from the heavy caffeine. At least I am not as sensitive to it.
Watch that irregular heart beat. I just went through another procedure brought on by a week of very serious work load, stress and being out of town. Each time I drop into overdoing the coffee, junk food and soda. This time cost me.

You can ween yourself off with slowly substituting de-caf but remember it still has some.

One thing about the plugs and muffs is that it will help you stop focusing on the damage and allow you to relax when shooting.
I use NEW plugs everytime and spend time in the shower letting hot water flush my ears so wax doesn't get packed in when you insert the plugs.
Frank

Hell, my ears ring so loud they wake up my wife.

And we're divorced - she lives 10 miles away!

Canuck

Canadian doctor Obviously hearing advice is not his specialty. I also wear the plugs and muffs when shooting the really big stuff, 450 and up.
one situation that really bothers me is a low flat roof over the shooting line or a noise abatement at the back of the line.

Actually have joined a small club where I have the option of moving my bench anywhere since I am the only shooter, eg. open air. Seems like this arrangement is easier on my ears, also no muzzle blast from the line.


Dak

Always muffs when training or hunting.

Canuck...

I'm an audioprosthologist ( advanced hearing aid specialist ) and always wear muffs when at the range, and I typically double-up with plugs.

First piece of advice is to put some distance between yourself and that ENT. While many are quite good, some are only interested in surgical procedures; tinnitus ( and most hearing losses ) can't respond to such and some ENTs are woefully lacking in non-surgical corrections.

Tinnitus is usually, but not always, a symptom of nerve damage in the inner ear. As mentioned above, it is temporarily aggravated by caffeine but alchohol and tobacco are also irritants.

Consider the tinnitus to be a shot across the bow and a warning to see someone about a possible hearing loss. If one waits too long there is little that can be done. If the speech center of the brain is not consistently stimulated by sound stimuli because the nerves are too weak to consistenly respond ( this is hearing loss ) it will eventually lose some of it's ability to consistently and accurately process that stimuli, even when hearing aids are introduced and the stimuli re-supplied. "Mathsr" mentioned that aids only made sounds louder but did not help him to understand better. That is a classic case of what I mean, and it should have been explained to him. There is a test procedure which quantifies what percentage of speech a person will understand with hearing aids; that should have been offered to him before he opted for treatment.

Today's technology is magnificent, but no one has yet determined how to reverse what is, in essence, brain atrophy. Look into it now as what you do, or don't do, this year may affect how well you spend your later years.

Again...wear those muffs all the time at the range. PM me if I can be of more help.

Grat explanation BBob. I had no idea retraining could stimulate the brain center into "re-hearing" lost sounds. It muct explain why I can somtimes concentrate and hear very minut sounds that otherwise excape me.
Frank

I shoot 3000 plus rounds per year with my rifles and also shoot skeet in the spring, summer and fall seasons. While shooting rifles I use plugs and muffs and shooting skeet, plugs. Some of my rifles have brakes. I have my ears cleaned yearly and tested, and have no damage presently. I have friends who hunt without hearing protection and will never change, they all have hearing loss to some degree. Anyone shooting a gun should have some form of hearing protection, or suffer the consquences. I Deer and Elk hunt yearly with trips to Canada and Alaska several times and one African Safari. I have fired a gun three times in my lifetime without hearing protection. The targets were a Brown Bear and Moose in Alaska, and a Cape Buffalo in Tanzania. I was lucky that I did not recieve any damage after those shots. How many of you have fired a gun without hearing protection. If you have very much, you better go have your hearing tested tomorrow. ----- The only time my hearing is below normal is when my wife calls me out of my reloading room. Good shooting.

When shooting centerfires I always try to double dip. At this point though I can't even hear my ears ringing.

I double up at the range and while hunting. I have the electric ear muffs with a volume control so I can hear others around me.

No, Frank, total comprehension cannot be restored. Perhaps I did not make that clear...sorry.

Once the speech center has atrophied it cannot be restored to fully-normal function even when the nerves of the inner ear are stimulated with amplification and the stimuli are again sent to the brain. It has lost the ability to consistently and accurately intepret the data. Full-function is lost forever. This is the sad part about waiting "too long" to get treatment.

The earlier a person gets the problem attended to the better the prospects for successful treatment.

At the range I double up, whether the covered rifle range or the indoors pistol range. I do this both to protect my hearing and also to help my shooting. I am MUCH more sensitive to the blast/noise than the recoil of the firearm.

I love my Pro Ears muffs and use them ALL the time when rimfire varminting. My buds_might_use their muffs with 17 HMRs and 22 LRs and say they're okay with the noise but I know better!

John