skl1 To answer your query about John Ricks, I believe he is, and has been getting into some kind of a construction business. I seen a post somewhere that he was going to finish projects in the works and then close the gun shop.

Ray Atkinson-- Aren't YOU missing the point of the DGR design that Rigby used when they came up with the 416 Rigby, which I understand had been fairly sucessful for guys like Harry Selby, etc.

Big Case, low pressures, = easy extaction. That is the argument that John Ricks used when he talked me into trying the RUM case, instead of the 416 Rem mag. Two different approaches to the same problem. Guess a guy could argue which is best from now on and then there's the guys trying to muddy the water with their extreme powders, and ALGORE inventing global warming which they say could cause another ice age.

Who knows what'll happen nest. Wayne

Wayne, next is spelled NEXT, not NEST. Wayne

Wayne

There seems to be a great deal of inconsistency on this site and especially on the African forum.

For example, the 416 Rigby is wonderful because it will do 2400 with low pressure and is a rimless case

By the same reasoning then a 375 Ultra should be wonderful as compared to the 375 H&H, but not so.

Not long ago there was a thread about maximum velocity and penetration and the 2300-2400 number came up and above that bullet instability and whatever meant penetration went down.

But just recently I tried the new search function on the new forum and there was a thread on the 416 Wby. And one of its big disadvantages was that it would over penetrate so was not good in a heard situation

If you take a 500 Jeffery to Africa that has the royal seal of approval. But if you take a 460 Wby and load it back you have problems if you lose your ammunition. I guess 500 Jeffery ammo must be all over Africa.

I get terribly confused by it all

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by walex:
Ray Atkinson-- Aren't YOU missing the point of the DGR design ....
Big Case, low pressures, = easy extaction. . Wayne

wayne,
sorry, you are missing the ACTUAL point of the big case and low pressure... it is NOT for easy extraction (sideresult) but from the lessor (than today) metalurgry and powder consistency of the day.

remember that the rigby (1912 or 1914) was made at EXACTLY the same time that the 1903 was made with three different methods of heat treating, and the first were KNOWN to be soft... too soft? that an interesting question... certainly too soft for modern high intensity rounds.

With the 416 rem, the same parameters are met, with better steels. I'll bet ray's been to africa more times than i ever will... while i have no problem disagreeing with him when he complains about recoil (must be the idaho water.. no texan would say it kicks too hard), that he's seen the 416 rem perform under condition is a fair assesment.

truth of the matter is that the 416 rugby was nearly extent during the 50,60,70,80 until the cz and ruger breathed new life back into it.

jeffe

Jeff, Never read anything about the soft steels of the day being the design factor, only about the effect of the hot African sun on the cordite powder, and pressures.

Of course one can read alot about the tapered case of the 375 H&H and the thutty-thutty, etc. creating bolt-thrust, and one doesn't have to go to Africa or the great north woods a jillion times to know that those two cartridges have slayed mightily over a good many years.

Actually, with modern powders, it doesn't seem logical to go and rob the grave to reinvent the Rigby 416, the only thing was the mystic that sold.

Boy this is like commercial fishermen here on th coast, just get them started on which is a better engine, Jimmies or Cats. Wayne

Walex,
I think you must have missed my point..With a case tapered to the extent of a 300 H&H, 375 H&H,and the 404 Jefferys, you notice all are time proven rounds..and the they all have an extreme taper that allows them to extract when a primer is blown or whatever would normally jam a straight case..There is a good deal of taper to the 416 Rigby (.581 to .540) I might add so thats not a good comparison...Has nothing to do with pressure but does have to do with what happens after pressure or whatever has done some damage to the case thats in the chamber...

Ray,
you keep talking about these heavy taper youngsters...

why the 45/70 has been a durn near straight walled smooth feeding case for over 100 years!!!

heh
jeffe

I thought the 404 was a very parallel case up to the start of the shoulder.

Mike

Ray, don't see where I missed any points. The tapered cases like the 3030 and h&hs and 30-40's all are time proven critter killers and I never heard of any bolts failing from pressure. As to the rigby it's got a lot more brass surface gripping the chamber walls so it wouldn't matter so much on back pressure on the bolt.

What I said was that I've read and heard lots of different points, and there's more opinions, than points, I would imagine.

When I was growing up in Brownie country, someone made the point that my little 300 Savage was as good as an '06 because of the sharper shoulder, but when my dad first seen a brownie up personal I got the little 99, and he got a new '06. And I always wondered if maybe I missed a point there somewhere.

Anyway.

That sharp angled shoulder point that someone made, sure made me feel a whole better about that little gun, for a along time, though. Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by Mike375:
I thought the 404 was a very parallel case up to the start of the shoulder.

Mike

That's right Mike. The .404 Jeffery has about the least case body taper of any production ammo (0.543" - 0.530" over the 2.001" run of the body). The overall taper of this cartridge comes mainly from the long gradual shoulder and long neck.

That taper is from the Norma spec drawing that Alf posted here previously.

The .404 Jeffery has less body taper than the .416 Rigby , and less body taper than the RUM and Dakota cartridge families.

But the .404 Jeffery sure is tapered at the nose end of the cartridge where it starts feeding into the chamber!

Ron,

I realise that but I was referring to Ray's comments on tapered cases and extraction and in that area the 404 could hardly be called tapered.

In fact from case head to start of shoulder it is almost like an Ackley Improved.


Mike

Wayne,

Can you just neck up the .375 RUM brass, no fireforming necessary?

Steve

skl1 Yes, no fireforming at all. I got the dies from Huntingtons, spendy, but the savings on brass will cancel out the cost difference on Rigby or Dakota brass with a couple more boxes of shells. I got the tapered expander and every case has come out perfect, with little effort.

I got two Lee classic presses new, that work slick, one for sizing and one for seating. Using and old pawnshop RCBS "O" press for the Lee factory crimp die.

The reamer came from Pacific too and guage, the print was titled 416-300 RUM.

The length from base to shoulder is .106" longer than the 416 Dakota. The throat is about that much shorter, so the cartridge brass length comes out about 2.830"

I'm seating both 400 grain A-Frames and 450 grain Woodlies out to 416 Rigby C.O.L.

I'm still using my old Custom Chrono archery rig, snow and gloom so I'm getting a few erratic readings, but 5 grains under max in Hornady book for 416 Dakota, of H4831 gave me 2550 to 2570 fps with aframes and 96 grains of same is giving 2375 with the 450 Woodies. And every so often I get a pretty good reading on a snowflake or the bullets are bouncing off of them.

I need a new chrono I think. I shot this one once with a 900 grain arrow from a Manchu type siniew/horn composite bow I made once. And nicked it with a 375.
Wayne

Heck, Southern Belle Brass has once fired 375 RUM brass for like $70 for 250. If you are sizing up anyways, I wouldnt think it really mattered that it was already once fired. Opinions?

gixxer Sounds like a deal.

At that price, a guy wouldn't have to dive for empties in the muskeg moose-swamp, would he? Wayne