Has anyone heard officially of a coming 416 RUM yet? It would be logical, and it seems as though the 416 Rem Mag is not real prevalent in their latest offerings. The 416 RUM as a factory round would be ideal, but I have heard nothing of it outside of possible wildcat status.

cap't,
the 416 rum would have zero gain over the 416 dakota... and nothing to compliment between the 416 rem (smaller) and 416 rigby (larger)

in fact, a 416 RUM would be a 404 J improved with a .416 barrel rather than a .423 barrel...

it would be as useless as a 300 WSM, if you owned a 30-06 and a 300 winmag.

and it's a bear to get to feed.. the rum cases that is

jeffe

Well, for starters, The Rem Mag has to be run right up ot 62k to get 2400fps. The Dakota can do it with more modest pressures. The RUM is no harder to feed than the Dakota, and the brass is certainly cheaper. If Remington did make the chamber, it would steal a little bit from Winchester's 416 Rem sales, perhaps.
I agree with captain. It's a no-brainer.

Smaller action than Rigby

Smaller boltface - easier on the action than Rigby

Lower pressure than Rem Mag

Would continue Remington's "innovation" in the 416 field

Cheaper brass than Jeffery or Dakota

I've been breaking in my new 416 Ultra-Mag by John Ricks, had Huntinton work up dies, using 375 RUM cases,and love it. The 416 Dakota is exactly the same case dimensions except that the shoulder is set back a bit farther on the Dakota, so it has a smidgeon less capacity. 26" Pacnor SS barrel, Olypic Arms Ultramag Action. Put a VA-Comp on it, which I like. Using the Hornady 416 Dakota load data. Velocity relates exactly to the book, same bullet, same powder, amount of powder. Snow 4' deep on the range, so only burrowed out 50 yrds. Essentially a one hole once I got it on the bull, Well, even with the 10 above shivers, a nickel will cover all 4 holes. John did load testing with a strain guage, but has been busy and hasn't sent me any of that data yet. Been getting 2540 fps with H4831 SC, well under max load in Hornady book for 400 gr. Hornadies. Goes bang twice for the cost of one Dakota case. Wayne

Right on Bwana. That lists every point in my book. I know it's essentially a 416 Dakota - but it would be way cheaper (like walex said) and would fill in the top of the RUM line very well. It would be nice if they dimensioned it such that the reamer would completely clean up a 416 Rem chamber, to boot. Anyone offering the 416 Rem could easily expand their line for the price of a new reamer.

Why is the 404J so wonderful? It's got great performance at modest pressure. Why not have the same capability in a 416 bore without going to the huge Rigby case? I don't think it would be useless at all - especially if it was one of the choices for a person's first big bore. I can't say that someone who already has a 416
Rem would be interested, but as someone shopping for a new rifle at this end of the scale, I'm interested.

Hey Walex - what action is that?
I think I have a pic of it chained up to the Oehler, along with mine a couple others, from when John was working on mine.
Mine's a 358-404 on a M70 and the feeding is a bit rough.

Bwana-be
Yes, Mine, I most likely have the same photo, three rifles all wired up, waiting for the rain to stop in Port Angeles last winter. Mine's on the Oly arms Ultra Mag action. It's throated so I can seat the bullets out to Rigby OAL, and feeds great, flawlessly smooth, the way he's shaped the rails. Holds 4 in the magazine, 1 in chamber. They take 5 down using the belted magnum case. I can stuff 5 of the RUM down but cramps them and the top one won't feed. Strange feeling, that brake/comp shoving the muzzle down instead of up. No smack on the cheek, just leaves your earmuffs in the airspace where your head was before touching her off. Wayne

Wow. Sounds like a bruiser. OAL of 2.85" or so? I'm certain you could get 2600 if you wanted the abuse. And a 350 to 2800 or so? That there is a one-gun African firearm.

If this forum is any guide it is very difficult to see Remington introducing a 416 RUM.

Just about every 416 Rem Mag on the forum is a Model 70.

The 375 RUM is almost non existant although I think there would be a lot more of them on the forum if they were chambered in the the standard Model 70 or CZ.

But how accurate a guide the forums are, I don't know.

Mike

Bwana-be I think this thing could bruise you without the VA-Comp. The recoil is not unpleasant,just quick, and straight back. I haven't been able to con any young macho into firing it without the cheater. Macho appeals didn't work either. Under 2500 fps it's fairly mild to shoot. I,ve tried seating to the cannelure, with a spacer in the magazine, and also out to 3.75", or slightly under. With the longer length, it loads easier, the easiest rifle to load the box I've ever seen, feeds flawlessly every thing I,ve stuffed in it. Well, it's a fun gun and cartridge, attention getter and all that. Wouldn't be if I could just go down to the store and buy a green box of (HO HUM) factory ammo. Wayne

BB,
iirc, one can use rum brass to form 416 dakota... which means if you don't care about headstamp, the brass price is exactly the same

so, other than shoulder, it would be the 416 rum/dakota.... or 404/416 improved.

One thing to remember.. a cz in 416 rigby, delivered, is 650... a custom reamer and barrel are 500 (together)

and the cz holds 3 down(usualy 4) 416 rigbys, while the rum (in factory trim) holds 2 and ONLY 2, unless you spend another 400 on custom bottom metal.


So, let's review.. a 416 rum is a bout the same difference to the 416 dakota as the 416 rem is to a 416 hoffman. that is to say, nothing worth talking about.

If you built a "holds 4 down" 416 rum, you would start with a model 70 rum action, 400, assuming you've got a 416 take off barrel (50), a custom reamer and headspace ga, 200, a smith to do the work (or equipoment depreciation) (200) custom dies, 175 (ch4d) unheadstamped brass (this is to be legit), bluing, 150, custom bottom metal, 400.

1575...
and THEN add at least 500 for a custom dropbox stock

2075

gain over a 416 rigby
"it's in a smaller actions"

loss on 416 rigby
less velocity for the same pressure
costs 1300 MORE
couldn't resell it for even 50%
no headstamped brass

cz 416 rigby
650
30 bucks for lyman dies

go shooting

So, net net, the 416 rem/dakota at the same pressues, would be a less powerful round than a rigby, and require custom bottom metal to even match the # of rounds a cz can hold.

the smaller action issue doesn't fly, btw... in fact, it's kinda funny.... in the felid, which do YOU want? 2 more rounds able to fire or 2 oz (that's about what is actually IS..) less weight?

length of throw is a WASH,.. i notive NO difference in a mexican mauser and a cz when I am shooting AT game.

weight? who doesn't want weight in a 416? you aren't building an ultralight rifle here, fellas... should weigh 9.5 clean and dry

jeffe

Jeffe,

Could you make 416 Dakotas from 375 RUMs

I think the RUM is .008 or .01 bigger across the head than the Jeffery/Dakota case

Mike

jeffe,

I'm with you. I am not opposed to new cartidges, but the 416 UM seems like a total waste of effort. Because one could get 2450 fps over a 2400 fps 416 Rem. Mag. makes no sense to me. I have never witnessed all this high pressure that is complained about with the 416 Rem. Mag.

But on the other hand, more power to the experimenters!

I'd rather just stick with the old .416 Remington. Bigger isn't always better.

I don't have visions of sugar plums dancing in my head over all this stuff. The bigger cases, while enticing, must burn more powder in order to achieve the even the same velocity, let alone exceed it, and that extra powder burn creates more recoil. Add to that increased feeding challenges and more limited action selection because of the big case, and all of a sudden the bigger .416s have lost their luster for me.

The .416 Remington has proven itself in Africa for sixteen seasons, and it's no more of a pressure problem than 90% of the chamberings that are routinely taken on safari, including the .338 Win., .300 Weatherby, .375 H&H, etc.

AD

Much easier and cheaper to just rebarrel a WinM70 RUM to .416 Dakota. I have done this. Dies and reamers are easy to come by, and after the initial extra brass cost, no worries.

And yes, Mike375, you can size those RUM cases down to the .404 Jeffery/Dakota size, no problem. But that dang "slightly" rebated rim is no help with anything. Ends my interest in cheaper brass.

Otherwise would sure agree with Jeffe, Will, and Allen.

That is why I have taken to necking up .338 Lapua, and I must tell you that the cartridge to end all wildcatting is the .375 Lapua or 9.5x69 mm Tornado. Same performance as Saeed's .375/404 but better brass. Hee haw!

On the practical side I agree, I was going to get a standard off the shelf 416 Rem Mag, save money to re-thatch the roof instead of squandering it on gun nut stuff. But how much fun would that have been?

The last new off the shelf rifle I bought ended up costing as much as this custom job, the cheap plastic stock didn't fit, there was jamming feeding problems, burrs left over from machining were carving up other parts, I added a brake, new stock and after several trips to the gunsmith, and freight to and fro, I've got more into it than the Custom Ricks rifle.

Of course all this depends on one's point of view, the Wastrel side of me can rationalize anything that looks like fun, the new boat, tools, bow and arrow, new sonar for the boat. The new guitar, then $10,000 worth of new tools to build a new guitar!

Like the old sailor on the ship told us youngsters many years ago, "Whatever snaps your pipe, sonny"

Some of my buddies are rabid golfers, bores me to tears just thinking about it. What they pay for a set of good clubs, I could have a couple more custom guns made up with what I'm saving right now by not being a golfer, Right ! I mean it makes sense to me. Wayne

I'm with Allen and Will, I have never noticed all those PSI in my 416s, wonder where those figues come from..I know I run mine as 2400 and I can load the cases as many as 10 times if I want and maybe more..Same with the 375 H&H...

I have no problem at all with the 416 RUM or whatever, but running down great calibers like the 416 Rem and 404 Jefferys to justify another caliber is unproductive IMO...

Ray, I don't think any one was knocking the 416 Remington Mag, that is what I wanted, and John Ricks talked me into this wildcat adventure, with the ultra mag case.

You don't really have to measure the pressure. A simple anology, take a hydraulic piston, for example. A large cylinder will push the same load at the same speed with lower pressure than a smaller cylinder. The larger cylinder will require a greater volume of oil, (or air, or gas) The small cylinder will take more pressure. That was the whole idea of the Rigby case design, which had to take into consideration the cordite propellant they had to work with, and the effects of temperature on it.
Wayne

Walex,

I like your Rick's-built .416 UM. I've thought about building the same thing. I've worried about the (largely theoretical) .416 Rem high pressure, too, with the potential for difficult extraction. But hell, the PH hunting test report cited often here and all the knowledgeable folks who have chimed in against the ultra mags above have got me buying Winchester rifles instead of Remingtons now, too.

Lack of headstamped brass would keep me from going that way, though; plus, I'd like a little more separation from my .375. Now I'm leaning towards a Lott for my "bigger than .375" gun. If it became a factory chambering or I could get reasonable custom headstamping done, I'd go this route for a .416.

I thought the UM cartridges were designed to be smooth feeders. My .300UM feeds better than any other rifle I have.

Steve

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bwana-be:
+ Smaller boltface - easier on the action than Rigby

---

humm... Can someone go into more detail about this? is it about bolt thrust or surface area of the cartridge case pushing back?

I always thought low pressures = easy on action.

help a n0ob out, thnx.

Steve

I think there is a place called Quality Cartidge and they source their brass from the different makers as cyclinders and then form and headstamp it. I think some of the 416 Taylor shooters use it.

That is how the headstamped brass for the 550 Magnum is done.

Mike

Stryker225

Lower pressure in a bigger diameter case could cause more bolt thrust.

But I don't think I would worry about it. Look how many years all those Weatherbys have been used in 30/378 through to 460 and with high pressure loads and of course the 378 is just a 416 Rigby Improved and a belt added.

When once also adds in all the people on the forum that say only 3 or 4 of the 9 lugs on a Weatherby bear then its suggests bolt thrust is not a problem, at least on actions made of good steel. Otherwise all 9 lugs would be bearing on those over loaded 378 based Weatherbys.

Mike

Necking up a 375 RUM to .416 is easy and logical, but the increase in energy will not help much in close on DG and the velocities are not high enough to make it into a long range flat-shooter. The 416 rem is just as good for DG, and once you reach that threshold its all about trajectory and longer range applications.

As far as a commercial proposition, it is highly unlikely to happen. Big green looks for big green, and that means big numbers of gun sales. I don't think the 416 rem mag was ever a huge seller for them. Now that the 458 Lott is a commercial offering, the average guy looking to have a big gun to brag about will go with the Lott. Those that think the 416 rem mag case is too small for the bore have the 416 Rigby, chambered in rifles that are superior to the Rem 700. With two CRF 416's on the market, CZ and Ruger, no wonder few Rem 416's get sold.

The 416 waters are already diluted enough with the 416 Rem, 416 Rigby, 416 Weatherby, 416 Dakota, and a handful of wildcats. It's really unfortonate that the hunting community didn't standardize on one 416, as there just isn't enough big game hunting to justify more than one in the hunting world. Which is also one of the reasons the 375 H&H has been such a success, it is the standard in its bore class.

Paul,

My impression (no science behind it) is that Remington sells rifles at a slight profit hoping to spur (greater volume and more profitable) sales of components and loaded ammo.

I could be wrong.

Steve

What happens in the world of gun nuts is they get too involved in technology and therory and lose track of common since...

The 416 Rem, like the 270, 280, 300 Win and others works off about the same pressures and no one seems to disagree until some idiot writes a BS ariticle proclaiming some supposed pressure problem towards a certain caliber, when in fact he put too much powder in the case, forgot to trim his cases or Lord knows what, but his BS becomes gospel because it was in print...

quote:

---

Originally posted by skl1:
Paul,

My impression (no science behind it) is that Remington sells rifles at a slight profit hoping to spur (greater volume and more profitable) sales of components and loaded ammo.

I could be wrong.

Steve

---

They'd have to sell a bunch of 416 ammo to break even on the tooling costs, and there just isn't that big of a market.

Look back at when the 416 rem mag was introduced. There were folks that wanted something more then a 375 H&H, and the only comonly available options at that time were the 458 win mag, and 460 Weatherby.

At that point in time, there was definately a niche for a 416. Even though the general hunting public and press have been down on Rem 700's as DGR's, if they were the only game in town, they'd still sell guns and ammo.

Subsequent to Remingtons introduction, Ruger brought back the 416 Rigby, and Weatherby came out with their 416, and now CZ offers a 416 Rigby as well.

So where is Remington's 416 Ultra niche? Those that want more velocity go to the 416 Weatherby. Those that want lower pressure go the 416 Rigby. Those looking to the most affordable rifle, which also happens to be a CRF, go to the CZ.

The only niche the a 416 Rem ultra would fill is somebody who is looking for a rifle that is slightly lighter then the 416 Rigby offerings. There aren't that many people that think 416's should be built light.

Finally, the dangerous game and big bore croud tend to be more nostalgic and calculated in their buying habbits, so there is nothing for the marketing folks to exploit and hype.

Then again, when I heard about the 325 WSM, I figured Winchester wasn't stupid enough to come out with such a wonder nothing, but they did.

I've heard of people using RUM brass for Jeffery-based chambers, but hopefully they are being careful and working up with the new cas4e. Depending on how tight your chamber is (mine's about .548" at the base, IIRC - the 404 case is about .542", the RUM something like .550" nom.) you might get some hard extraction before expected.
And since we're talking about Rem making the 416 RUM a factory offering, it doesn't make sense to recite the custom conversion costs.
There isn't much of a market for anything over 338, unless you go 45-70 maybe. But I imagine anyone wanted to buy a Rem Mag would be happy getting the RUM, assuming they were set up similarly. And one of the crueler aspects would be that it would force Win to tool up for it in their custom line. They'd prolly end up selling more than Rem would.
As for "not noticing" the high pressures, 62k isn't the sort of thing you notice. I'm not one to tout the alleged problems of a 62k round in the hot African sun, but I know there are a number who do. Its mention was in light of there being a market for the RUM. I think it would sell. I don't think feeding would be a problem, I do think it would run faster than the RUM, I do think it would fit in more actions than the Rigby, I do think hunters would buy it, at least as much as any other 416 these days.
;-)

Well, the 416 on the RUM case seem's to me like a lot of other things, like our video recorder format, tv definition we got locked into just a little before something better come along, and then it means tremendous cost to retool and re-eduate or whatever. Look at the money Sony lost trying to push the Beta Max, which really is better than the VHS.

This 416 RUM/ 416 Dakota, etc. whatever the label will do quite a bit better than the 416 RUM, at the same pressure, with out the scope-destroying recoil velocity of the Rem Mag, that Darcy D'Echols mentioned in a recent magazine article. It will do all that the Rigby will in a smaller, more ecomomical package, and if one was starting from scratch, like if one had our modern powder instead of cordite and whatever else they used back a hundred years ago, The RUM would have been the best way to go.

The 375 H&H wouldn't have needed so much taper to the case and could have been even better than it was, and no need for Weatherby, and Ackley wouldn't have been able to Improve anything.

John Ricks made get my 416 chamber for the RUM case, he's a real big guy too big to argue with about guns and I like it and am having fun with it and enjoying just being different.

As for big green making the 416 RUM legit off the shelf, I would imagine that they would have to come up with a real "schtick" to create a demand big enough to sell any profitable amount of them. As it is, with the demand for anything bigger than a 338, they must chamber the bigger stuff just to keep their hand in the game anyway, so that the guys who have been Winchester users or Remington users, etc, don't have to buy any one else's brand if they want a 375, 458 or 416, I mean the guy who's used Remingtons for 50 years and gets the hots for a big cannon, they don't want him to find out the Winnies or brownies or Weatherbies actully will shoot a bullet.

Brand loyalty means a lot to them, I believe. Wayne

Wayne

I don't Remington can take a trick in the over 30 calibre market.

If you run through GunsAmerica on the Remington section there is very few Rem 700s over 30 calibre and that is the same on this forum.

I reckon there would be lucky to 2% of the 416 Rems on this site are Rem 700s.

I think a 416 RUM would sell much better than 416 Rem Mag but the sales would be when M70 and CZ chambered for it.

Personally, I think if Hornady, Speer, Nosler and Sierra would make some bullets in 416 then the 416 RUM might just be the best play around big bore of all.

Mike

Mike, Actually having mine and working up the loads, I have to agree with you. Also the CZ option, especially. as I got my first real close look at one in 375 H&H yesterday at the range, and could see the quality for the money.

My 375 SS classic 375 is nice but it took a trip to a good smith, to smooth up the feeding, and Blackburn bottom metal, twice the money as a CZ would have been right out of the box.

Also, having used and been around other muzzle blasters, (brakes) I'm really happy with this VA Comp, by BP- TEC, It's as good as any for holding her back, the muzzle has zero rise, and with the holes on the top, all the blast and noise goes straight up and forward too. It's quieter when standing 15 feet off to the side, than a 223 bare-donk.

It likes your 450 grain Woodie bullets, too. Looks like 2350 to 2400 FPS with them. I'd like to know what the Rigby does with that bullet. Whatever it should do a number on my big brownie next spring. Or one of your big black Water buffaloes.

Or place enough lead in my next moose to anchor him on the spot, and keep him from running out into the nearest muskeg swamp and dying in the water like they always did with the old mans '06. Wayne

Walex,

Did I read that right? Are you saying that the compensator/brake you're using makes the gun similar to a .223 without a brake?

Sounds like the rig my PH had, though he called his brake a silencer. Sounded like a .223, though.

Steve

skl1, Only with the sound part of it. There' quite a bit of difference in the counter punch you get when you poke the 416 on the button. You can check out the VA comp on bp-tech 's site. The four holes that divert the gas from the four chambers are on a flat ot the top of the brake. This holds the muzzle jump down, and aims the sound waves straight up as well. What don't go straight out the front end, and I would guess that what goes out the front is greatly diminished.

I imagine that if you were on a perch above the muzzle and slightly ahead of it, you'd find that the sound and fury is still there.

There are some videos on the BP-Tech website that are interesting. One clip shows a guy firing a 458 Lott with and with out the VA Comp. Mine is just exactly like the clip shows.

I need an adjustable reamer so I can tune it for negative muzzle rise or dip. I bored it out some on a a friends late, but it still shoves the muzzle down a little.

The sensation wil take a little getting used to, after a lifetime of gunbarrels going up instead of down. I can see an advantage, as the target is not obscured by the rifle not obscuring the target. In fact the view of the target is opened up a little.

My friend who had the 223, is an assistant bear guide who was impressed by the lack of side blast and sound, as he's been bounced around by more than one brake going off next to him on hunts. I hope this is clearer, Wayne

The big bore market is now and always will be limited and none of the big bores will be a big seller, not in the cards..

I will say that I see more 416 Remingtons in Safari camp than any other caliber by a good margin these days and I see a lot of PHs carrying them...Surprisingly the showing of 375s has not been all that great as of late, but it'll always be with us thank goodness...

I doubt the 458 Lott will sell in large numbers because of its vicious recoil, I have never seen a Lott or bigger bore that showed much real use or abuse, on the used market, most folks shoot them a few times and can't wait to dump them..Many rest in gun cabinets for show.

Today big bores are more popular than ever but they don,t even make a dent in the gun market or in ammunition sales..

One thing about a 416 Rem is if they drop it from production all one has to do is run 375 H&H through a 416 die and presto your back in business and we'll always have 375s, 300 H&H and good belted brass...

Remington would drop the 416 Rem. in a heartbeat and go to the 416 RUM, to make a bunch of rush sales, they have done it in the past, its all about money with those guys, good or bad, thats a fact...They will also drop the 416 RUM if it does not sell, and it won't...

I think we all forgot the obvious. If you really want to use the RUM case to improve the 40 caliber, you start back at the beginnning. The 404 Jeffrey.

Mild pressures, bigger bullets, and a case that is well designed for DGR use.

Paul H, Hi, I have been gone a while. You are right, that is obvious, to start with the jeffrey case.

And isn't that exactly what Remington and Dakota have done? Started with the 404 Jeff case and worked up the RUM line and the Dakota line of cartridges.

And wouldn't one include the various wildcatters who instantly recognized the obvious, and punched out a bigger hole in the front end of the 375 RUM case, (Cheap) and made a 416/300 Rum, 416 Ultra-mag or whatever they wanted to call it.

To answer Jeffeosos comments, I would more or less surmise that a 416 UM would have zero gain in performance over the 416 Dakota. Wouldn't take much to figure that out, with the case dimensions being almost virtually identical. There is a major difference in cost of the brass. the name brand Dakota case being 4 to 5 times more expensive.

I look at what John Ricks has done to my gun to make it feed slick, smooth and flawlessly and it looks like very simple blacksmith file, (or Dremel Tool) work, on and action/magazine designed for the 375 H&H belted magnum type cases. Very basic metal smith work.

It's also one of the easiest magazines to load of any bolt rifle I've ever owned or handled.

All in all, it's been a fun rifle to shoot. It's a one-hole rifle at fifty yards,essentially, and that's right on the bullseye, where they are aimed, not just a pretty group inches away from the thing, like all the pictures in the magazines that the gunwriters are so proud of. Half Inch one ragged hole groups, all complete misses! John Ricks can do the precision machine work necessary to make a rifle perform. Too bad he's giving up on the gun work. Wayne

Wayne,

John Ricks has quit doing gun work? Do you know why?

Steve

You know, even though neither of those wildcats mentioned are not exactly the best thing since sliced bread to all, somebody felt all warm and fuzzy inside by making a wildcat off of any of those earlier mentioned cartridges. If they have the money to blow on something redundant, then let it be. If I had the money, I would make a wildcat instead of someting "factory" even if they were almost the same thing. Just so I could call it "mine", truly a one of a kind custom job. All depends on what you want to spend your money on.

I am sitting here with a BIG smile on my face because the EXISTING 416 remington mag is the most misunderstood big bore out there. Even experienced reloaders look at the straight case and go with fairly fast powders with even the 400 grainers, many loveing the good velocities of the old data from Hodgdon using R15. R15 is a great powder for the 300 grainers out there and will not give pressure problems, but with 400 grainers it will climb up there when it gets hot. Same goes for 4064 and the like.

The classic 400 grainers actually need something like AA4350...87 grs will drive it 2450 fps at 43,900 CUP. This is a slightly compressed load and has the best shot to shot consistency of ANY powder. It has no nitroglycerin, and you need to get it hotter than africa can to spike it up to 54000 CUP.

Once you move away from the pressure isses associated with DG and go after plains game, the Barnes 300 gr X can easily be driven 2950 fps with R15 with a BC of .394 and a decent SD of .248 for thin skinned game. The X will penetrate better than any expanding 350 grainer, and it is long enough to get close to the lands and stabilize well. The bigger cases, including the 416 Weatherby, can only muster an additional 100 fps which is hardly worth the 20 grs of additional powder.

If one needs more than this as a practical matter in the field I am wondering what criteria are being used. Bigger cases can drive the 400 grainer faster, but I can't imagine that they dispatch with greater authority in close.

And don't forget...the Hornady and Federal Heavy Mag technology is waiting in the wings to jump in at any time. The expansion ratio is perfect for the technology (same as the 308 Win)and will add 150 fps for those that want a security blanket. It has already done this for the 375 H&H and there is no question that in the 416 Rem it can launch 500 grain bullets at 2250 fps at modest pressures (SD is .413). I have already done this with R22, but right at max pressure so the H-mag technology is the way to go for DG applications where pressure needs to be reasonable.

All of this is about fully developing the 416 Rem, which is still in its infancy and probably won't mature for another 5 to 10 years. If you need more than it already offers...for whatever reason...it will come sooner than you think and not in a bigger case.

Feeding?, you guys missed the DGR point of the .404 Jefferys, 375 H&H and that is all that case taper makes for easy non sticky extraction when other designs would pull the rim off and stay stuck in the chamber...Its not feeding, its unfeeding that counts when the chips are down

RUM, Dakota and several others are all going in the wrong direction, and sales will show that in time, once the new wears off and the velocity nuts wonder off in another direction, then the 404 Jefferys will once be king of the hill, if, in fact, it still isn't a better seller...

Think goodness for the many calibers based on that grand old case, it will keep the .404 Jefferys in production for ages to come.