I just got a Marlin 1895sbl 45-70 and I really like it so far but I'm thinking maybe I also need a 50. What I am thinking of doing is sending my 2011 built Winchester mod 71 to Dough Turnbull and having him build me a custom 50 Alaskan, the question I have is does the 50 Alaskan out preform the 45-70+p loads enough to justify converting my mod 71? Would you use a 50 Alaskan for hunting cape buffalo and other soft skin dangerous game?

For a .50 in a lever action, give a look at the .50 B&M Alaskan: works in the same rifles, same case, but with .500 bullets instead of .510, much more choice...

quote:

Originally posted by Philip A.:
For a .50 in a lever action, give a look at the .50 B&M Alaskan: works in the same rifles, same case, but with .500 bullets instead of .510, much more choice...

Bingo.

I have thought about the 50 B&M Alaskan, but I don't believe Turnbull chambers it in thier rifles.I know SSK chambers it but I would really like for the rifle to be done by Turnbull.

There is nothing wrong with the .50 Alaskan as is. There are plenty of .510 caliber bullets available. The revolver in my signature is a .50 Alaskan. A lot of fun to shoot (not really).

460wby

I had a 50 Alaskan takedown with a 18 1/2 barrel built on the Marlin 1895 by Wild West Guns. I shot and tested all kinds of loads. I also have a Marlin Guide Gun 45-70 that I have shot and tested all kinds of loads. I harvested numerous animals with both. I was disappointed with the 50 Alaskan. It does not out do the 45-70 by enough in both velocity and performance on game to warrant the cost! I traded the 50 Alaskan back to Wild West and have never regretted it! The 45-70 out shot the 50 Alaskan hands down. I had a hard time keeping the 50 Alaskan under 3 inches at 100yrds. My 45-70 will shoot three shots 1 1/2. I wanted a 50 for a long time before I finally popped for one. I paid $2600.00 and was very disappointed with it's performance.

Regards
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by 460 wby shooter:
I have thought about the 50 B&M Alaskan, but I don't believe Turnbull chambers it in thier rifles.I know SSK chambers it but I would really like for the rifle to be done by Turnbull.

If you are considering a 50 B&M Alaskan only SSK IND. has reamers. You should give Brian a call at SSK IND. to get a quote, you will be surprised how much less it will be than Turnbull and how much sooner you will get your gun. As far as quality they are both top notch.

There is no dought that SSK makes great stuff, but Turnbull will do away with the tang safety and CCH the receiver. Also I believe that the resale value of a Turnbull rifle will be higher (I could be wrong).

I have 4 45/70's, a 50 Alaskan and a 50-110. I disagree that the 45/70 with +p in a lever action is 'close enough' not to bother with getting the work done. When I last took the .50 on a bear hunt. The guide took one look at the destruction the 50 did to the bear and said... "I gotta get one of those".

a coupe more photos.

Nice shooter, Buckeye...that looks like an 1895 Marlin receiver with the safety button? Doug sure does good work!!!!

The problem with all these this vs that stuff is everybody seems to compare CARTRIDGES NOT bullet weight/construction and velocity/pressure/rifle types and when they do, it's apples to corn pone...like saying I killed da dah, da dah, da dah... with a Remington... absolutely no information whatever and useless.

A 50 cal has a cross sectional area ~19% larger than a 45 cal so all things being equal like equal weight bullets, equal velocity, equal length barrel and equal impact momentum at equal distances the 50 cal will distribute that momentum over a 19% larger area and do more damage...

...BUT...THAT doesn't mean a 45-70 won't do a job on ANYTHING that walks, runs, swims or crawls on this planet IF the right platform is chosen.

A 45-70, 405 gr Rem factory load doesn't do such a bad job in a levergun, but it is a bit anemic, comparatively speaking, you can't expect it to do the work of a 458 WM, but take a R#1 in 45-70, step up to a 500 gr bullet, jacketed or lead, and load it right and you won't be far behind.

I have a bunch of 45 and 50 cals shooting 300 to 750 grain slugs and I know a bit about what different type/weight/cal bullets, at various velos, do in my sandbox and what they would be expected to do in game animals...no matter what, a 45 or 50 cal bullet will do major damage if only because of it's size.

If I could find a higher strength barrel in 50 cal I might do a 50 Alaska on my Marlin 336 Switch barrel, but I think a Turnbull 50-110 would be more fun.

I can't speak to the cape buffalo part of the equation. But on brown bear the 45/70 has a very good reputation. The 50s SHOULD work better But.

My bear rifles are mostly 458 Win Mag and the 416 Taylor and Remington. . I can not PROVE to my own satisfaction that the 458 kills/ Flattens brown bear an instant faster than either of the 416s that I've killed bears with and I've killed bears at close to very close range with all 3 .
IMO, someone would have to kill a barge load of similar animals with both to say 1 way or the other. .

But. If you can and want a 50 Alaskan no doubt it will work. I'm just not sure how much better it will.

For myself, if I had a model 71 it would become a 450 Alaskan. That round in that rifle or an 86 makes up for what the 45/70 is lacking. Which is powder capacity.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Nice shooter, Buckeye...that looks like an 1895 Marlin receiver with the safety button? Doug sure does good work!!!!

The problem with all these this vs that stuff is everybody seems to compare CARTRIDGES NOT bullet weight/construction and velocity/pressure/rifle types and when th
ey do, it's apples to corn pone...like saying I killed da dah, da dah, da dah... with a Remington... absolutely no information whatever and useless.

A 50 cal has a cross sectional area ~19% larger than a 45 cal so all things being equal like equal weight bullets, equal velocity, equal length barrel and equal impact momentum at equal distances the 50 cal will distribute that momentum over a 19% larger area and do more damage...

...BUT...THAT doesn't mean a 45-70 won't do a job on ANYTHING that walks, runs, swims or crawls on this planet IF the right platform is chosen.

A 45-70, 405 gr Rem factory load doesn't do such a bad job in a levergun, but it is a bit anemic, comparatively speaking, you can't expect it to do the work of a 458 WM, but take a R#1 in 45-70, step up to a 500 gr bullet, jacketed or lead, and load it right and you won't be far behind.

I have a bunch of 45 and 50 cals shooting 300 to 750 grain slugs and I know a bit about what different type/weight/cal bullets, at various velos, do in my sandbox and what they would be expected to do in game animals...no matter what, a 45 or 50 cal bullet will do major damage if only because of it's size.

If I could find a higher strength barrel in 50 cal I might do a 50 Alaska on my Marlin 336 Switch barrel, but I think a Turnbull 50-110 would be more fun.

This was a brand new Cowboy that was sent to Doug to convert. I never fired it as a 45/70. You are correct that the bullet makes the biggest contribution to the wound and killing effect of any gun. I also agree that the 19% greater frontal area is the deciding factor on the difference between the 2 rounds. I get 1850 fps (22 inch barrel) in a 4/70 with a 400 grain bullet. I get 1850fps in the 50 Alaskan with a 535 grain Woodleigh and its 19% bigger. Many here comment on how a hardcast flatnose or a flatnose solid impart a heavier blow and penetrate better than a roundnose. I think this is the same thing I see using this round. I do file the nose flat on the Woodleigh just to be positive I have a flat profile on the bullet for better expansion and safety in a tube magazine. Woodleigh makes a 500 grain flat point now, but I bought a bunch of 535's that I'll be shooting a long time. I think the extra frontal area is responsible for the 'blow' the bullet puts on a bear. I've shot 4 with the gun and they have all been bang-flops with a shot through both shoulders and a golf ball sized exit hole or larger.
The gun did have a safety button, but I retro fit them with the Ludwig Safety Delete kit, about $15.00, with a blank that fits the safety hole and returns the gun to pre-84 design.

Yeah...you should limit the 50 A to ~35KPSI especially in a converted Marlin...it has a thin section in the threaded portion of the barrel just above the mag tube that put me off after I made a dummy threaded/chambered stub out aluminum and measured the cross sections and thickness of what was left, especially in square threaded barrels...that's one reason I think Marlin went to Vee threads for the 450 Marlin rifle...it leaves a lot more supporting meat around the chamber.

There have been many 50 A conversions to the Marlin and I've never heard of any problems but I'm a bit conservative with that receiver. I think most of the factory/custom 50 A ammo is limited to ~1850fs/500 gr and has been tested in Marlin conversions...some makers post their pressure readings and some don't.

I plonked my sandbox from 50 yds with a 1.40" long, 715 gr GC, Wheel Weight material, 0.400" meplate of my own design, from a 22" 50-70 at a measly 1400 fs/~21.7KPSI and it ended up with a ~0.900" almost perfect mushroom, the length was reduced to 0.829" long and it penetrated ~17" into the sand.

You have to balance penetration, expansion and momentum depending on your quarry, but even with a huge meplate the penetration of low velo, large cal, hi SD, heavy bullets has to be seen to be believed...they're like the Energizer Bunny...they just keep going and going and going.

Luck with your new toy.

Although I really like my marlin, that's the reason if I do the custom it will be on a NIB Winchester mod 71. But again I have nothing against marlin at all.

I've always liked the Marlin platform, but it does have limitations because of the design. I like the 86/71 design also and it is a stronger design. My 50-110 is on an 86 by Turnbull. I actually have not shot it yet as I'm offshore and have been for nearly a year. I have been stuck on 50 caliber for a while, just kind of like something a bit different.

Ya it is fun to have the odd ball in hunting camp.

Have you considered having Mic Mc Phearson convert a Marlin into a 510 Kodiak Express. With a 23" BL. I can get 5500 ft. Lbs of energy with it. It is basically a 50 Alaskan lengthened by 21/100ths of an inch. Lost of power in a Marlin! I love mine.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:


A 50 cal has a cross sectional area ~19% larger than a 45 cal

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the .512 caliber is ~19% larger than .416 caliber, not .458". You only get ~10.5% greater bullet diameter from the .50 over the .45 caliber. I may be splitting hairs here, but I doubt you would get 10% faster kills, but you might get 10% more thrills from havering something different from most folks. Throated properly, and using wide long nose LBT bullets, you can approach 50-110 performance given equal pressures. In the 86/71 action, the same situation exists with the 45-70 approaching 45-90 performance with the long LBT designs. One of my dream rifles is a fancy Turnbull 86 in 50-110, but I have long realized that the 45-70 is all the hammer anyone really needs. I just like the look and the look and feel of those big-honkin 50 cal round in my hand, and that 50 cal hole in the barrel! Maybe not very rational, but it gets me excited.

For a circle the cross sectional AREA is calculated by the formula A = Pi(3.1415) X Radius Squared...the radius is the diameter divided by 2.

R for .458 = .229 x .229 x 3.1415 = ~0.165 sq in
R for .510 = .255 x .255 x 3.1415 = ~0.204 sq in

0.165/0.204 = 0.809-1.00 = 0.191 x 100 = ~19%

You were dividing by the DIAMETERS not the RADIUS...a common mistake when comparing cross sections(which has more whack) between bullets.

Whether or not one size(caliber) kills faster??? is the continuing, contentious, ad infinitum, ad nausium saga that I WON'T get into, as many of the arguments border on school yard BS. You know, "Love the one your with"...doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

What you believe and what you use to kill with is YOUR decision alone.

It's patently obvious that mostly ALL large calibers with heavy bullets do the job they are supposed to do, that the constant comparisons are mostly useful only in proving some point in the OP's mind and much of those comparisons really miss the point that killing QUICKLY is the reason for "bigger is better"...but "bigger" is only relative.

I have/had rifles in cals from 17 Mag to 73 cal including smoke poles and have taken game killed with calibers everyone screams are not equal to the task...armchair hunters I think more often than not.

But I've gotten older and MAYBE??? a little wiser and I've noticed that the larger the caliber the quicker the kill relatively speaking and taking into account ALL the factors related to CNS disruption/blood circulation(leakage)/tissue destruction and NOT JUST "the game got dead".

The last elk I took was with a 416 Taylor and 400 gr Speer and I was thinking "I wish I had my 458"...not that I thought the Taylor wouldn't/didn't do the job very quickly and cleanly otherwise I wouldn't have used it...but more for the "bigger is better" mantra. AND...I've taken a WHOLE lot of deer and antelope and one elk with a 22LR with a bullet in the eye/skull close up.

My THOUGHTS...Put the bullet where it belongs, stay within the cal/bullets/game optimum range and DON'T take stupid shots...and bigger is better...and paper ballistics only kill paper game.

I have a 45-70 32" NEF rechambered to 45-120 that produces velos hard on the heels of a 458 Lott with a 26" bbl with bullet weights up to 500 gr at pressures ~45KPSI.

I like that shooter a lot but if I were stomping around in grizzly country I would have my 23" 50 Rigby with two down and one up and 600 gr bullet minimum and probably wishing for Ma Deuce instead.

YOU are very welcome to do what you think is best for you and good hunting.

If you have a 45/70, then I think going to a 50 Alaskan is a waste of money...

If I wanted more killing power than the 45/70 in a Lever rifle I would go with the 475 Turnbull...


However, after my experience on Australian Buffalo with my 405 Winchester, with 300gr North Fork Softs and 300gr North Fork FP Solids, I do not see how ANY rifle, other than a 10 Megaton Thermo Nuclear Plasma Phase rifle, could do any better...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

If I wanted more killing power than the 45/70 in a Lever rifle I would go with the 475 Turnbull...

Just what I was thinking.
Tony Makris used a Turnbull Winchester 1886 .475 Turnbull on a big bull elephant side-brain shot: DRT, one shot through the brain was all she wrote.
That rifle started off as a 50-110 WCF, IIRC.
It was the last elephant of Johan Calitz's last season in Botswana, 2013.
Nevermore?
Botswana has shut it down.

RIP

Did Tony's Makris's hunt make it to the dvd of Johan's and Ivans recent dvd?

Thanks
Mark

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
If you have a 45/70, then I think going to a 50 Alaskan is a waste of money...

If I wanted more killing power than the 45/70 in a Lever rifle I would go with the 475 Turnbull...

Why would it be a waste of money going to a .50 Alaskan and not a waste of money to go .475 Turnbull?

Reading threads such as this is thoroughly enjoyable and it often boils down to what one hunter/shooter wants versus what he needs to do a specific thing.

All cool - collecting and shooting a variety of rifles is fun and rewarding to most of us.

One the most successful deer hunters that I have known owned only one rifle all his life - a 30-06, and he took all the game south of the Artic with it. He was a pure hunter and not a gun nut like some of us(including me).

Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

N E 450 No2

it is good to hear that your Australian hunt was a success; let me know if you ever post a trip report so I can read it.

One anecdote if I may:
Just as I reached 2080 fps with a 400 grain Woodleigh in my .405 WCF, a friend at the bench said this "Now you have a .45-70!" He was correct in that he and other big bore friends reached that velocity with 400 and 405 grain bullets with their Miroku Winchester 1886 45-70 rifles. I had also done that easily with my 1886 .45-90 which weighs 9 pounds empty and more with a tube full of cartridges.

Why stretch the 1895 .405 to 400 grains when
a .45-70 could do the same job? I like to carry and shoot the 1895 and it was an interesting project. Many of the members of this forum will know just what I mean.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
N E 450 No2

it is good to hear that your Australian hunt was a success; let me know if you ever post a trip report so I can read it.

One anecdote if I may:
Just as I reached 2080 fps with a 400 grain Woodleigh in my .405 WCF, a friend at the bench said this "Now you have a .45-70!" He was correct in that he and other big bore friends reached that velocity with 400 and 405 grain bullets with their Miroku Winchester 1886 45-70 rifles. I had also done that easily with my 1886 .45-90 which weighs 9 pounds empty and more with a tube full of cartridges.

Why stretch the 1895 .405 to 400 grains when
a .45-70 could do the same job? I like to carry and shoot the 1895 and it was an interesting project. Many of the members of this forum will know just what I mean.

I too would like to hear of NE 450 No 2's exploits in Australia

crshelton,
I always enjoy reading your posts,you are one of the very few who has actually been there & done that with Lever action rifles that most of us dream about,but you gotta quit listening to the 45/70 crowd a 400 gr woody out of a 405 wcf is not quite what a 400 is out of a 45/70 at the same speed,now I am ready to be burned at the stake ha ha ha.

If you want a little more power in a Marlin Lever action. Go with a 510 Kodiak express. I can get 5400 ft.lbs out of mine no problem. Mine has a ,23" barrel made by Mic McPhearson. It is one slick gun! I love it.

quote:

other than a 10 Megaton Thermo Nuclear Plasma Phase rifle, could do any better...

Tony, I just ordered one of those :-)

The hot-rodding of the 45-70 by Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Grizzly, Cor-Bon, and others has certainly made the gap between it and the other big bore lever calibers narrower or non-existent. The 50 Alaskan, 50 B&M, or 475 Turnbull are interesting calibers, but I don't know how much more you need than the ability of a 540gr Garrett Hammerhead 45-70 going end-to-end in a Cape Buffalo.