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| One of Us |
Can anyone tell me what the quality difference is between the English H&H &Purdeys against the best Italian makes. I have seen that Famars do integral pins in the sidelocks,but overall is the machining and finnishing just as good,better or worse than the best English? or are we mostly paying exhorbitant prices for the prestige of a british label? | ||
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| One of Us |
Italians did not make sxs rifles for the old African and Indian 'Raj".  Yes, lack of nostalgia will get you at resale time!  | |||
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One Of Us |
We're talking modern guns, right? The difference is hours that go into the guns. Most sidelock makers (of the caliber you're thinking of H&H, WR, etc...) claim to put about 1K hours into a gun. There are a few makers that claim not to limit the number of hours that go into thier guns and they claim an additional 2-400 hours. That's the difference between a "best" gun and a gun made by one of the top-5 makers in the world. Having said that, except for a couple of English makers, IMO – you are over-paying for English guns. The Italians are making better guns than the brits are today. Don’t belive me? Pick up a new H&H and compare it to a Rizzini R1, or a Fabbri. At a grade below that A&S is doing better work than WR. In fit and finish the Italians win… not to mention engraving. 25-years ago the Italians had some problems with hardening of metals, and that legacy still follows them (depending on who you ask) but they've long since figured that out. A more fair comparison would be to compare those two best Italian makers with a Peter Nelson gun or a Hartman & Weiss. Integral pins are just an aesthetic touch. As far as resale values go on one of these guns, just pull the trigger once and you've burned 20-30% regardless of the brand. The problem with the italian guns today is the exchange rate up 40% in 4-years! | |||
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| one of us |
Woodjack, ask your questions on nitroexpress.com. | |||
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Moderator |
no opinion on the comparision of quality,,, at resale, you get what you put in... (using simple interest... too early to do real compounded interest, even though that would show MORE) say you pay 40k for an english,and get 42 k ten years later.assuming 5% interest on a savings account, .(-20,000 passed interest on the money, 2000 "profit" at resale = net loss 18,000 and 6500 for a italian, and 5500 at resale, 10 years later...(-3250 passed interest - 1000 "loss" at resale = net loss 4250 So, if you had the 40k to get the english, and bought an italian, you would keep the interest on the remaining 33,500, which would be $16750 over 10 years, and have a sale of 5500, and at the end of 10 years, you have $55750 or, with the english, same money, you have 42,000 looks like a net gain of 13750 with the cheaper gun being sold at a loss tell me again where you are taking a bath on a cheaper gun??? jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeffeoso, PRESTIGE department. | |||
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400 Nitro Express should chime in...a WEALTH of info in that man's head... 577NitroExpress Double Rifle Shooters Society Francotte .470 Nitro Express  If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming... | |||
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One of Us |
I don't think prestige has anything to do with this. Double rifles either feel good to you or they don't. I've seen a Famars at the past Dallas show that was a beautiful well made rifle that felt good in your hand and came to your shoulder as a good rifle should, ready to do.  I've also handled Merkels that were well made and shot great. On the other had I've held Doubles that were boxy and had all the balance of and swing of a tree stump. If you are going to buy a double rifle you ought to be able to put your money down on a rifle that you like and can shoot. Buying and owning a double rifle requires you becoming knowledgeable in what makes up a good double rifle for your needs. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| one of us |
There are a few names that is comin up in this thread that it should be the ones to compare with the Italians. As new guys sais, it should be Peter nelson or H&W. So just look at the history of this firms. Where did they come from? (I dont remember who of them, but eather Hartmann or Weiss comes from Purdey. before they hooked up. Then a few yars leter another guy joins the H&W company. Yeas P.V. Nelson. and where does he come from?? yeas Purdey's. So let me ask. who of these three are the best?? It can be al three because Purdey once took al the customers from Mantons. So there is no reason why history can not repeat. But by handle and see one of theese Purdey Rifles feels me confident that this gun is a real chalange to beat for other makers. If there is any competittion in this. But I must admit that I have never seen an italian top noth gun eather. | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeffe I won't fault your math but I do fault your figures. While no one will know the future market it is a good bet that the value of well cared for used British rifles will increase substantially in the future. An example. I bought 3 Best quality Brit rifles in the early '90's. I paid less than US$20,000 for each of them. Now, 15 years later, all three would easily sell for between $50,000 to $75,000. Your $2000 rise in value is incorrect judging by past performance. This assumes a rifle that is bought correctly. Using your logic no one would ever buy new car because of the loss of value. | |||
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| One of Us |
I am not interested in nostalgia of H&H,Purdeys etc. Rather simlpy, If we put the best british,german,italian on a table and closely scrutinised,from a purely engineering point of view, which are the most precisley made? Is a Purdey any better than the best Italian available? I am not talking about resale value,just what you get for your money the moment you part with it. | |||
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| One Of Us |
They are all excellent at this level.
Not IMO.
At this level of gunmaking - regarless of design ideas - I assure you, any one of them will outlive you. How much more can one ask of their "money's worth?" | |||
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| one of us |
There is a reason that Italian guns don;t have the resale value and it sure as hell isn't nostalgia and prstiege, its workmanship and know how that the English had...The Italians didn't have it then and don't have it today..Thats my opine. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| One Of Us |
I'm not picking on Ray, but in fairness to Woodjack's question, it's a pretty common theme whereby gun-Anglophiles believe that no one in the 21st century is capable of building a gun as well as the brits. That may have been true "between the wars," but that was 75-years ago. And it's not as if the brits didn't take some time off from making "best guns" - look at the quality and value for guns from England made from the late 1950's into the 1970's. Rusty has actually pointed out a perfect example of the 21st century gun trade with the A&S guns above. A&S produces about 300 barreled actions per year. But they only finish and sell about 100 guns per year.  Where do you think the other 200 barreled actions in-the-white go? Next time you run into the A&S guys at a show, ask them. There simply aren't many guns made with manual cutters and milling machines anymore and these guys individually don't sell enough to afford the latest CNC equipment required to compete in the marketplace with companies that do. So where does a maker get the parts to build thier guns at a competative price? They buy from a handful of makers that have the CNC machines and produce parts for the trade. This is not a new concept in the gun business. Everyone knows that most of those famous "between the wars" guns that came from the famous names were on W&S actions. | |||
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| One of Us |
I will compromise by accepting a Fanzoj double (Austria). | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks NewGuy for your input. CNC technology is far beyond what the human hand can do these days,when it comes to machining tolerances. I meet with a guy now and then who works for a company that manufactures artificial hearts,they are removing metal to about 2 microns(.002mm) and less. they are also looking into technology that removes material on the molecular level. I know the best italian makers are heavily into CNC,but dont know to what level of accuracy. I believe you can order a barrel set without returning the action for fit.Dont know about the british rigs. Like I said The machines are much more capable than the human hand for consistency & tolerance in metal. | |||
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one of us |
I do machining that on a Citizen screw machine at work with repeatability of +/- .005mm.. And this is a nothing special, off the rack machine with rotary encoders - we machine 52100 at 11000RPM...  You start using glass scales and climate controlled buildings, you can get it to half that easy. Toolmaker | |||
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| One of Us |
I do not know about Italian DRs, BUT... As far as shotguns go, the Italians have re-written the book! Fabbri is unsurpassed nowadays in the shotgun world. When one takes into consideration all aspects of the gun; (Metalurgy, fit & form finish) the Italians of today have the best of the best on the market - as far as shotguns go. New DRs??? I'd put my money on Top of the line Hartmann & Weiss, LeBeau Courally, Searcy Presidential grade. Overall though, you can not beat a "between the wars" British DR when it comes to resale value - that is of course if you bought it right! JW | |||
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| one of us |
Please help me find a quality Italian double rifle in a big bore for $6500.00 and I will give you a finders fee if I buy it\!!!!  square shooter | |||
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| One Of Us |
You're kidding, right?  I mean that was a Freudian Slip (had to be)... you were just thinking about "double rifles" in general and that one popped into your mind. That has to be it... no one in their right mind would compare a searcy "presidential grade" to a H&W or a LC. | |||
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| One of Us |
Someday I hope that this Hurco will be able to machine actions. Square bridge and double rifle.  Just takes time and money! Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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| One of Us |
New_Guy, you onery rascal!  I put the Searcy in the same company due to the fact that although the other rifles mentioned H&W and LC will most likely be a bit nicer in the finish department, I'll guarantee that the Searcy will outperform them both in terms of accuracy and mechanical soundness, AND won't be too far off in the asthetics department either. I'll take the Z-06 Vette over the Lambroghini on anyday!  JW | |||
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| Moderator |
i can do it for half of that... pedersoli 45/70 kodiak, rechamber to 450 NE2, done opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Historically, James Purdey was an apprentice at Manton's. In fact, he was Manton's first apprentice. Purdey was known as a "stocker" and became an all around gunmaker. That is the reference today. If one is a "stocker" at Purdey, they can do anything include actioner, barrels, etc. The English really shine in doubles and for name, nothing is better than Purdey although Boss and H&H round out the top 3. Now others also make "Best" guns and quite a few now as we are in a Golden Age of gunmaking at the present time. The Italians are also making superb guns as always do the Austrians, etc. However, for affordability, strength, accuracy, and cost, you cannot beat a Searcy. I currently have an unfired 470 Searcy with an extra set of 12 Ga barrels and another gun coming in 470 so one of these is for sale if anyone needs one for a hunt this Summer. | |||
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| One Of Us |
I appreciate your practical application/end-result-driven approach to defining a “best gun.†But Dude… what are you smoking over there???  You’ve obviously never even seen a H&W, LC, Purdey or even a dominion grade H&H or you would know the extreme to which you’ve blasphemed a “best gun.†Sorry, we're just too far apart on this one.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Duuude! As the owner of a 1920 Rigby .470 I think one would agree that I could have some idea as to quality, huh? (BTW I sold my last H & H a few months back, Albeit it was a 12 bore) Now that's behind us.  Let's get to the meat and original topic of this discussion - "Double Rifle Quality". I would agree that those "hallamrk" brands are the creme-de-la-creme (beteen the wars that is), and will no doubt have a finer finish than most modern rifles. BUT there is no way those older rifles can compare when it comes to technology; metalurgy for example. This is where Butch Searcy has the advantage - don't use the PH model rifles he builds as the benchmanrk of Butch's capabilities. Those rifles are intended as the name implies to be tools for PHs and the like, thus are nicely done, but are made for everyday use, not worshiping! Butch is fully capable of producing "primere/ best grade" rifles. By using the best the industry has to offer he can and does when ordered produce rifles that will someday be considered modern masterpieces. The rifle that I have on order for example will be finished to a level that is as far as I'm concerned on par with anything out there being currently produced - Rust blueing, Lee (formerly of Purdey's) engraved and turnbull color case hardened (ain't none better than Doug), just for starters. Couple all of that with the fact that the rifle will be a dead-nuts accurate rifle and we're talking "Best" gun. It is a myth that the best guns are made in Europe - great guns yes, but when it comes to rifles (all categories) - the best are now being made here in the US - Butch Searcy is capable of "Best" work thus is on my list. George Hoenig is yet another example of this US dominated renessance. I own one of George's rifles and have had it side by side with what are considered to be the best. Maybe H & W (not mechanically though), but have yet to see another that comes close. AND, the list of top grade US makers goes on and on. You might consider commissioning a Searcy and seeing for yourself. Quality is more than just fancy engraving and pretty wood! Jeff | |||
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| One of Us |
Jeff, My Searcy has been great. It was a good purchasing decision. George Hoenig makes some unique and beautiful rifles. But to be fair, shouldn't Germany get credit for him? | |||
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| One Of Us |
Take it easy, Jeff. It's just a difference of opinions. Not like it should cost you any sleep or anything. I'm sure you'll be pleased with whatever you own. | |||
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| One of Us |
No worries New_Guy....we're on the same page. Just wanted to make sure that folks know abour Searcy's ability to turn out great stuff. Just curious what you are currently shooting? I've got a line on a Rigby .450 DR (not a .450 no 2), yes a genuine .450 - completely original! Interested? JW | |||
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| One Of Us |
For DRs, I've got 3 chapuis - a 470 and two 375s. Working on a bolt gun now, and looking for a good Heym DR (Euro is tough right now), but would be interested in the Rigby. PM me. I'm also starting a magnum-action bolt gun... caliber TBD. I'm posting for suggestions in a bit. You'll have a chance to contribute. | |||
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| One of Us |
500grains, Germany does not get credit for George! He lives in "-Merica" afterall!!! Germany was the sperm donor, but America raised him - so to speak!!!  JW | |||
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| one of us |
If I want an investment I will buy a English double rifle..If I want a using gun then I will buy a Searcy... I will let those who want Italian and Spanish guns have them, All the Italians ever did right IMO was Pizza and only after the Americans gave them the recipe... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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| one of us |
I dunno...Gina Lollabrigida comes to mind. You remember her don't you Ray? Peter. Be without fear in the face of your enemies. Be brave and upright, that God may love thee. Speak the truth always, even if it leads to your death. Safeguard the helpless and do no wrong; | |||
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One of Us |
You are an evil man for posting that pic! 
Good hunting, Andy ----------------------------- Thomas Jefferson: “To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.” | |||
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| One Of Us |
Ray, you're still living "between the wars." The Spanyards... I'll give you that, but the Italians are making some serious guns these days. | |||
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One of Us |
If my income can keep up with my outgo, an H&H Royal in .500/.465. If not, and I can't live without a nice sidelock double, a Searcy sidelock double in .470. If not, and I can't live without any double at all, a Merkel in the same. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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