Double Rifle Quality

24 June 2005, 07:59

new_guy

quote:
Originally posted by Woodjack:
Can anyone tell me what the quality difference is between the English H&H &Purdeys against the best Italian makes.
I have seen that Famars do integral pins in the sidelocks,but overall is the machining and finnishing just as good,better or worse than the best English? or are we mostly paying exhorbitant prices for the prestige of a british label?

We're talking modern guns, right?

The difference is hours that go into the guns. Most sidelock makers (of the caliber you're thinking of H&H, WR, etc...) claim to put about 1K hours into a gun. There are a few makers that claim not to limit the number of hours that go into thier guns and they claim an additional 2-400 hours. That's the difference between a "best" gun and a gun made by one of the top-5 makers in the world.

Having said that, except for a couple of English makers, IMO â€“ you are over-paying for English guns. The Italians are making better guns than the brits are today. Donâ€™t belive me? Pick up a new H&H and compare it to a Rizzini R1, or a Fabbri. At a grade below that A&S is doing better work than WR. In fit and finish the Italians winâ€¦ not to mention engraving. 25-years ago the Italians had some problems with hardening of metals, and that legacy still follows them (depending on who you ask) but they've long since figured that out.

A more fair comparison would be to compare those two best Italian makers with a Peter Nelson gun or a Hartman & Weiss.

Integral pins are just an aesthetic touch.

As far as resale values go on one of these guns, just pull the trigger once and you've burned 20-30% regardless of the brand.

The problem with the italian guns today is the exchange rate up 40% in 4-years!

24 June 2005, 10:56

vigillinus

Woodjack, ask your questions on nitroexpress.com.

24 June 2005, 13:30

jeffeosso

no opinion on the comparision of quality,,,

at resale, you get what you put in...

(using simple interest... too early to do real compounded interest, even though that would show MORE)

say you pay 40k for an english,and get 42 k ten years later.assuming 5% interest on a savings account, .(-20,000 passed interest on the money, 2000 "profit" at resale = net loss 18,000

and 6500 for a italian, and 5500 at resale, 10 years later...(-3250 passed interest - 1000 "loss" at resale = net loss 4250

So, if you had the 40k to get the english, and bought an italian, you would keep the interest on the remaining 33,500, which would be $16750 over 10 years, and have a sale of 5500, and at the end of 10 years, you have $55750

or, with the english, same money, you have 42,000

looks like a net gain of 13750 with the cheaper gun being sold at a loss

tell me again where you are taking a bath on a cheaper gun???

jeffe

24 June 2005, 15:36

Paolo9,5x73

Jeffeoso, PRESTIGE department.

24 June 2005, 18:36

577NitroExpress

400 Nitro Express should chime in...a WEALTH of info in that man's head...

24 June 2005, 19:34

Rusty

I don't think prestige has anything to do with this.

Double rifles either feel good to you or they don't. I've seen a Famars at the past Dallas show that was a beautiful well made rifle that felt good in your hand and came to your shoulder as a good rifle should, ready to do.

I've also handled Merkels that were well made and shot great.

On the other had I've held Doubles that were boxy and had all the balance of and swing of a tree stump.

If you are going to buy a double rifle you ought to be able to put your money down on a rifle that you like and can shoot.

Buying and owning a double rifle requires you becoming knowledgeable in what makes up a good double rifle for your needs.

Rusty
We Band of Brothers!
DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member
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25 June 2005, 03:35

Shultz&larsen

There are a few names that is comin up in this thread that it should be the ones to compare with the Italians. As new guys sais, it should be Peter nelson or H&W. So just look at the history of this firms. Where did they come from? (I dont remember who of them, but eather Hartmann or Weiss comes from Purdey. before they hooked up. Then a few yars leter another guy joins the H&W company. Yeas P.V. Nelson. and where does he come from?? yeas Purdey's. So let me ask. who of these three are the best?? It can be al three because Purdey once took al the customers from Mantons. So there is no reason why history can not repeat. But by handle and see one of theese Purdey Rifles feels me confident that this gun is a real chalange to beat for other makers. If there is any competittion in this. But I must admit that I have never seen an italian top noth gun eather.

25 June 2005, 07:04

Mickey1

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
no opinion on the comparision of quality,,,

at resale, you get what you put in...

(using simple interest... too early to do real compounded interest, even though that would show MORE)

say you pay 40k for an english,and get 42 k ten years later.assuming 5% interest on a savings account, .(-20,000 passed interest on the money, 2000 "profit" at resale = net loss 18,000

and 6500 for a italian, and 5500 at resale, 10 years later...(-3250 passed interest - 1000 "loss" at resale = net loss 4250

So, if you had the 40k to get the english, and bought an italian, you would keep the interest on the remaining 33,500, which would be $16750 over 10 years, and have a sale of 5500, and at the end of 10 years, you have $55750

or, with the english, same money, you have 42,000

looks like a net gain of 13750 with the cheaper gun being sold at a loss

tell me again where you are taking a bath on a cheaper gun???

jeffe

Jeffe

I won't fault your math but I do fault your figures. While no one will know the future market it is a good bet that the value of well cared for used British rifles will increase substantially in the future.

An example. I bought 3 Best quality Brit rifles in the early '90's. I paid less than US$20,000 for each of them. Now, 15 years later, all three would easily sell for between $50,000 to $75,000.

Your $2000 rise in value is incorrect judging by past performance. This assumes a rifle that is bought correctly.

Using your logic no one would ever buy new car because of the loss of value.

25 June 2005, 07:27

Woodjack

I am not interested in nostalgia of H&H,Purdeys etc. Rather simlpy,
If we put the best british,german,italian on a table and closely scrutinised,from a purely engineering point of view, which are the most precisley made? Is a Purdey any better than the best Italian available? I am not talking about resale value,just what you get for your money the moment you part with it.

25 June 2005, 08:59

new_guy

quote:
Originally posted by Woodjack:
I am not interested in nostalgia of H&H,Purdeys etc. Rather simlpy,
If we put the best british,german,italian on a table and closely scrutinised,from a purely engineering point of view, which are the most precisley made?

They are all excellent at this level.

quote:
Is a Purdey any better than the best Italian available?

Not IMO.

quote:
I am not talking about resale value,just what you get for your money the moment you part with it.

At this level of gunmaking - regarless of design ideas - I assure you, any one of them will outlive you. How much more can one ask of their "money's worth?"

25 June 2005, 22:48

Atkinson

There is a reason that Italian guns don;t have the resale value and it sure as hell isn't nostalgia and prstiege, its workmanship and know how that the English had...The Italians didn't have it then and don't have it today..Thats my opine.

26 June 2005, 09:06

new_guy

I'm not picking on Ray, but in fairness to Woodjack's question, it's a pretty common theme whereby gun-Anglophiles believe that no one in the 21st century is capable of building a gun as well as the brits. That may have been true "between the wars," but that was 75-years ago. And it's not as if the brits didn't take some time off from making "best guns" - look at the quality and value for guns from England made from the late 1950's into the 1970's.

Rusty has actually pointed out a perfect example of the 21st century gun trade with the A&S guns above.

A&S produces about 300 barreled actions per year.

But they only finish and sell about 100 guns per year.

Where do you think the other 200 barreled actions in-the-white go?

Next time you run into the A&S guys at a show, ask them.

There simply aren't many guns made with manual cutters and milling machines anymore and these guys individually don't sell enough to afford the latest CNC equipment required to compete in the marketplace with companies that do.

So where does a maker get the parts to build thier guns at a competative price? They buy from a handful of makers that have the CNC machines and produce parts for the trade.

This is not a new concept in the gun business. Everyone knows that most of those famous "between the wars" guns that came from the famous names were on W&S actions.

26 June 2005, 09:16

500grains

I will compromise by accepting a Fanzoj double (Austria).

26 June 2005, 09:26

Woodjack

Thanks NewGuy for your input.
CNC technology is far beyond what the human hand can do these days,when it comes to machining tolerances. I meet with a guy now and then who works for a company that manufactures artificial hearts,they are removing metal to about 2 microns(.002mm) and less. they are also looking into technology that removes material on the molecular level. I know the best italian makers are heavily into CNC,but dont know to what level of accuracy. I believe you can order a barrel set without returning the action for fit.Dont know about the british rigs. Like I said The machines are much more capable than the human hand for consistency & tolerance in metal.

26 June 2005, 23:55

Toolmaker

I do machining that on a Citizen screw machine at work with repeatability of +/- .005mm.. And this is a nothing special, off the rack machine with rotary encoders - we machine 52100 at 11000RPM...

You start using glass scales and climate controlled buildings, you can get it to half that easy.

Toolmaker

27 June 2005, 20:35

Jeff Wemmer

I do not know about Italian DRs, BUT...

As far as shotguns go, the Italians have re-written the book!

Fabbri is unsurpassed nowadays in the shotgun world. When one takes into consideration all aspects of the gun; (Metalurgy, fit & form finish) the Italians of today have the best of the best on the market - as far as shotguns go.

New DRs??? I'd put my money on Top of the line Hartmann & Weiss, LeBeau Courally, Searcy Presidential grade.

Overall though, you can not beat a "between the wars" British DR when it comes to resale value - that is of course if you bought it right!

JW

28 June 2005, 02:22

lb404

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
no opinion on the comparision of quality,,,

at resale, you get what you put in...

(using simple interest... too early to do real compounded interest, even though that would show MORE)

say you pay 40k for an english,and get 42 k ten years later.assuming 5% interest on a savings account, .(-20,000 passed interest on the money, 2000 "profit" at resale = net loss 18,000

and 6500 for a italian, and 5500 at resale, 10 years later...(-3250 passed interest - 1000 "loss" at resale = net loss 4250

So, if you had the 40k to get the english, and bought an italian, you would keep the interest on the remaining 33,500, which would be $16750 over 10 years, and have a sale of 5500, and at the end of 10 years, you have $55750

or, with the english, same money, you have 42,000

looks like a net gain of 13750 with the cheaper gun being sold at a loss

tell me again where you are taking a bath on a cheaper gun???

jeffe

Please help me find a quality Italian double rifle in a big bore for $6500.00 and I will give you a finders fee if I buy it\!!!!

28 June 2005, 08:28

new_guy

quote:

New DRs??? I'd put my money on Top of the line Hartmann & Weiss, LeBeau Courally, Searcy Presidential grade.
JW

You're kidding, right?

I mean that was a Freudian Slip (had to be)... you were just thinking about "double rifles" in general and that one popped into your mind.

That has to be it... no one in their right mind would compare a searcy "presidential grade" to a H&W or a LC.

28 June 2005, 18:37

Rusty

Someday I hope that this Hurco will be able to machine actions. Square bridge and double rifle.

Just takes time and money!

28 June 2005, 20:04

Jeff Wemmer

New_Guy, you onery rascal! troll

I put the Searcy in the same company due to the fact that although the other rifles mentioned H&W and LC will most likely be a bit nicer in the finish department, I'll guarantee that the Searcy will outperform them both in terms of accuracy and mechanical soundness, AND won't be too far off in the asthetics department either. I'll take the Z-06 Vette over the Lambroghini on anyday!

28 June 2005, 20:14

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by lb404:
Please help me find a quality Italian double rifle in a big bore for $6500.00 and I will give you a finders fee if I buy it\!!!!

i can do it for half of that...

pedersoli 45/70 kodiak, rechamber to 450 NE2,
done

28 June 2005, 20:34

Thumpper470

Historically, James Purdey was an apprentice at Manton's. In fact, he was Manton's first apprentice. Purdey was known as a "stocker" and became an all around gunmaker. That is the reference today. If one is a "stocker" at Purdey, they can do anything include actioner, barrels, etc. The English really shine in doubles and for name, nothing is better than Purdey although Boss and H&H round out the top 3. Now others also make "Best" guns and quite a few now as we are in a Golden Age of gunmaking at the present time. The Italians are also making superb guns as always do the Austrians, etc. However, for affordability, strength, accuracy, and cost, you cannot beat a Searcy.

I currently have an unfired 470 Searcy with an extra set of 12 Ga barrels and another gun coming in 470 so one of these is for sale if anyone needs one for a hunt this Summer.

28 June 2005, 21:22

new_guy

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
New_Guy, you onery rascal!

I put the Searcy in the same company due to the fact that although the other rifles mentioned H&W and LC will most likely be a bit nicer in the finish department, I'll guarantee that the Searcy will outperform them both in terms of accuracy and mechanical soundness, AND won't be too far off in the asthetics department either. I'll take the Z-06 Vette over the Lambroghini on anyday!

JW

I appreciate your practical application/end-result-driven approach to defining a â€œbest gun.â€ But Dudeâ€¦ what are you smoking over there???

Youâ€™ve obviously never even seen a H&W, LC, Purdey or even a dominion grade H&H or you would know the extreme to which youâ€™ve blasphemed a â€œbest gun.â€

Sorry, we're just too far apart on this one.

29 June 2005, 03:43

Jeff Wemmer

Duuude! As the owner of a 1920 Rigby .470 I think one would agree that I could have some idea as to quality, huh? (BTW I sold my last H & H a few months back, Albeit it was a 12 bore) Now that's behind us.

Let's get to the meat and original topic of this discussion - "Double Rifle Quality".

I would agree that those "hallamrk" brands are the creme-de-la-creme (beteen the wars that is), and will no doubt have a finer finish than most modern rifles.

BUT there is no way those older rifles can compare when it comes to technology; metalurgy for example. This is where Butch Searcy has the advantage - don't use the PH model rifles he builds as the benchmanrk of Butch's capabilities. Those rifles are intended as the name implies to be tools for PHs and the like, thus are nicely done, but are made for everyday use, not worshiping! Butch is fully capable of producing "primere/ best grade" rifles. By using the best the industry has to offer he can and does when ordered produce rifles that will someday be considered modern masterpieces. The rifle that I have on order for example will be finished to a level that is as far as I'm concerned on par with anything out there being currently produced - Rust blueing, Lee (formerly of Purdey's) engraved and turnbull color case hardened (ain't none better than Doug), just for starters. Couple all of that with the fact that the rifle will be a dead-nuts accurate rifle and we're talking "Best" gun.

It is a myth that the best guns are made in Europe - great guns yes, but when it comes to rifles (all categories) - the best are now being made here in the US - Butch Searcy is capable of "Best" work thus is on my list. George Hoenig is yet another example of this US dominated renessance. I own one of George's rifles and have had it side by side with what are considered to be the best. Maybe H & W (not mechanically though), but have yet to see another that comes close.
AND, the list of top grade US makers goes on and on.

You might consider commissioning a Searcy and seeing for yourself. Quality is more than just fancy engraving and pretty wood!

Jeff

29 June 2005, 07:11

500grains

Jeff,

My Searcy has been great. It was a good purchasing decision.

George Hoenig makes some unique and beautiful rifles. But to be fair, shouldn't Germany get credit for him?

29 June 2005, 08:36

new_guy

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
Duuude! As the owner of a 1920 Rigby .470 I think one would agree that I could have some idea as to quality, huh? (BTW I sold my last H & H a few months back, Albeit it was a 12 bore) Now that's behind us.

Let's get to the meat and original topic of this discussion - "Double Rifle Quality".

I would agree that those "hallamrk" brands are the creme-de-la-creme (beteen the wars that is), and will no doubt have a finer finish than most modern rifles.

BUT there is no way those older rifles can compare when it comes to technology; metalurgy for example. This is where Butch Searcy has the advantage - don't use the PH model rifles he builds as the benchmanrk of Butch's capabilities. Those rifles are intended as the name implies to be tools for PHs and the like, thus are nicely done, but are made for everyday use, not worshiping! Butch is fully capable of producing "primere/ best grade" rifles. By using the best the industry has to offer he can and does when ordered produce rifles that will someday be considered modern masterpieces. The rifle that I have on order for example will be finished to a level that is as far as I'm concerned on par with anything out there being currently produced - Rust blueing, Lee (formerly of Purdey's) engraved and turnbull color case hardened (ain't none better than Doug), just for starters. Couple all of that with the fact that the rifle will be a dead-nuts accurate rifle and we're talking "Best" gun.

It is a myth that the best guns are made in Europe - great guns yes, but when it comes to rifles (all categories) - the best are now being made here in the US - Butch Searcy is capable of "Best" work thus is on my list. George Hoenig is yet another example of this US dominated renessance. I own one of George's rifles and have had it side by side with what are considered to be the best. Maybe H & W (not mechanically though), but have yet to see another that comes close.
AND, the list of top grade US makers goes on and on.

You might consider commissioning a Searcy and seeing for yourself. Quality is more than just fancy engraving and pretty wood!

Jeff

Take it easy, Jeff. It's just a difference of opinions. Not like it should cost you any sleep or anything.

I'm sure you'll be pleased with whatever you own.

29 June 2005, 18:43

Jeff Wemmer

No worries New_Guy....we're on the same page. Just wanted to make sure that folks know abour Searcy's ability to turn out great stuff.

Just curious what you are currently shooting?

I've got a line on a Rigby .450 DR (not a .450 no 2), yes a genuine .450 - completely original!

Interested?

JW

29 June 2005, 19:50

new_guy

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Wemmer:
No worries New_Guy....we're on the same page. Just wanted to make sure that folks know abour Searcy's ability to turn out great stuff.

Just curious what you are currently shooting?

I've got a line on a Rigby .450 DR (not a .450 no 2), yes a genuine .450 - completely original!

Interested?

JW

For DRs, I've got 3 chapuis - a 470 and two 375s.

Working on a bolt gun now, and looking for a good Heym DR (Euro is tough right now), but would be interested in the Rigby.

PM me.

I'm also starting a magnum-action bolt gun... caliber TBD. I'm posting for suggestions in a bit. You'll have a chance to contribute.

30 June 2005, 18:48

Jeff Wemmer

500grains,

Germany does not get credit for George!

He lives in "-Merica" afterall!!! troll

Germany was the sperm donor, but America raised him - so to speak!!! lol

01 July 2005, 03:34

Atkinson

If I want an investment I will buy a English double rifle..If I want a using gun then I will buy a Searcy...

I will let those who want Italian and Spanish guns have them, All the Italians ever did right IMO was Pizza and only after the Americans gave them the recipe...

01 July 2005, 03:40

Peter

I dunno...Gina Lollabrigida comes to mind. You remember her don't you Ray?
Peter.

01 July 2005, 04:42

ACRecurve

You are an evil man for posting that pic!

quote:
Originally posted by Rusty:
I don't think prestige has anything to do with this.

Double rifles either feel good to you or they don't. I've seen a Famars at the past Dallas show that was a beautiful well made rifle that felt good in your hand and came to your shoulder as a good rifle should, ready to do.

I've also handled Merkels that were well made and shot great.

On the other had I've held Doubles that were boxy and had all the balance of and swing of a tree stump.

If you are going to buy a double rifle you ought to be able to put your money down on a rifle that you like and can shoot.

Buying and owning a double rifle requires you becoming knowledgeable in what makes up a good double rifle for your needs.

01 July 2005, 09:02

new_guy

quote:
Originally posted by Atkinson:
If I want an investment I will buy a English double rifle..If I want a using gun then I will buy a Searcy...

I will let those who want Italian and Spanish guns have them, All the Italians ever did right IMO was Pizza and only after the Americans gave them the recipe...

Ray, you're still living "between the wars."

The Spanyards... I'll give you that, but the Italians are making some serious guns these days.