Gentlemen,
I have designed a shotgun slug for the hunter who:
1.His only option to hunt is with a smoothbore shotgun.
2.He wants better accuracy, in flight stability and penetration than any other slug commercially available today.
3.He wants to shoot at longer than usual distances (by smoothbore barrel standards).
4.He wants a slug for protection against big and dangerous animals when hunting birds or other small game or using a shotgun as a back-up when fishing in dangerous areas, etc.
5.He wants to hunt game much larger than deer (where almost all the factory produced slugs are intented to be used).
6.It could be used in rifled shotgun barrels as well and also in lightly chocked smoothbore barrels (up to modified).
Finally, I intent to set up production in the near future.
Any comments, questions, etc. will be well appreciated.
Sincerely,
Lefteris

Sounds grrrreat!

Do you have pictures stats etc?

Is it the bullet/slug only, or loaded rounds?

Sounds like a good deal to me. Just a couple of questions

-What's the weight looking like?
-Any testing done? Such as have you tested this slug on several types of shotguns, rifled or not? And any use on any game?
-Finally, what are you using to make this slug (lead, copper, etc.) and have you done any pressure testing?

I'm interested in this project because as you have seen as well, this is a common problem through the slug market that needs to be addressed. Good work!

Lefteris Vassiliadis,

Welcome to AR! Please post some photos of your slugs. Sounds like you have come up with something interesting!

http://www.prbullet.com/12ga.htm

is it anything like this???

Boom Stick-that PR slug is one I tested in
12GA FH..Great up to 20-2200, Was leading
at 2500.
Lefteris--What exact diameter are yours and
are they hardened?? And if you need some
real rigorous testing, let me know.
It only takes a few, like a half
dozen, to test them to see how fast
they go without leading rifling.Ed.

hey hub...(ed)

what kind of shotgun do you recomend to make the tgfh and how much does the brass cost???

Boom Stick -- For brass you get some unfired
bmg cases, give fritz454 a buck each to putrims on, then fireform. Best gun right now is Rob's
Borchardt. A double in the future is the best
and we are hoping that on we are checking
will work.It is all shown on the
12GA FH thread.Ed.

Gentlemen,
Thanks for your replies.I can not post pictures, maybe a fellow would like to help. The slug is machined from brass bars. The exact alloy is called MS 58 Brass (CuZn39Pb3). It has a specific density of 8.4grams/cm^3. The diameter of the slug is 16mm (.629). the length is 40mm (1.5748") and the weight is 35.64grams (550 grains). It has a meplat diameter of 13mm (.512) and a 1.5 caliber ogive. This for 3", 12 gauge chambers. For 2.75" chambers the weight will be about 450 grains and for 3.5" chambers about 750 grains. As you understand it needs a sabot. This sabot is what I am working now to design. By the way if someone knows about appropriate resins for making sabots I will be glad to know. As you all know a slug for smootbore shotguns must be nose heavy, for stability reasons. This specific slug has also a through and through longitudinal hole along its center axis that has a diameter of 5.4mm or about the 1/3 of its diameter. The air that enters this hole, when in flight, further stabilize the slug. So, we have a nose heavy slug with enhance stability due to this hole. A friend run the design of this slug through a Computational Fluid Dynamics program and the results are that turbulence wake behind the base of the slug are almost completely eliminated at a speed of 2 Mach. At 1 Mach, where all weird stability things happen there is enough air that exits behind the slug to reduce turbulence wake as much as possible. If someone can post pictures you will understand this design immediately.
I will try to answer your questions:
1. From tests I have made until now, I have proved that this design can stabilize slugs better than a hollow base only slug. This from the round holes I see on the targets.
2. I can not claim any improved accuracy, until now. The problem here is not the slug. It is the sabot. The sabots i have used were lathe turned out of a hard plastic material. Anyone trying to make sabots in a lathe knows what I am trying to say. You can not turn two sabots exactly the same. I will design a sabot to be made in a plastic injection molding machine and I think the accuracy problems will be solved.
3. I tried some penetration tests. At about 1200f/s muzzle velocity a 5" thick concrete block can not stop it. Actully the block crushed in pieces. If you wonder why the velocity is so low I can tell you this. I tried to load the slug to higher velocities but I run into high pressure problems. The hard sabot material does not compress properly and the pressure climbs high. I am talking about proof load territory. So i stoped at 1200f/s for now.
4. I do not intent to enter in the ammunition manufacturing business. Only to make the slug for anyone interested to load it by himself. Maybe a shotshell maker will load it, some time in the future, for the non reloaders.
5. When I am ready and everything works satisfactory, I will be glad to send examples to everyone asking. By the way I will be very interested to see what happens, concerning penetration and accuracy, when Mr. Hubel sends them downrange at 2500f/s.
Sincerely,
Lefteris

Lefteris,

Check your e-mail; I'll post your photos for you.

George

quote:

By the way I will be very interested to see what happens, concerning penetration and accuracy, when Mr. Hubel sends them downrange at 2500f/s.
Sincerely,
Lefteris

my guess is that alot of us will be intrested in the results of twice your velocity. Kurt.

GeorgeS,
Thank you for the offer. Unfortunately, I didn't receive your e-mail.
Orion1,
I sent two photos for posting. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Lefteris

Lefteris, you have my attention as well. This is a very good endeavor-keep us informed.
regards

quote:

Originally posted by Lefteris Vassiliadis:
GeorgeS,
Thank you for the offer. Unfortunately, I didn't receive your e-mail.
Orion1,
I sent two photos for posting. Thanks.
Sincerely,
Lefteris

Lefteris,
The orion1 e-mail was from me. As of this post, I have not received your photos. Please check your e-mail to see if you received any errors.

George

George,
I sent the e-mail again. Did you receive it?
Lefteris

quote:

Originally posted by Lefteris Vassiliadis:
George,
I sent the e-mail again. Did you receive it?
Lefteris

Οχι.

George

Lefteris,

I really hope a ammo manufacturer loads this slug, it sounds great!!! If not... I guess I will have to start reloading(a trade I've been wanting to learn for a while). Will be waiting for more info on this slug.

George,
Please, check your e-mails. Sorry for the mistake.
Lefteris

Lefteris,

I received the photos and here they are:

Photo 1. This is the slug, designed for 12 gauge, 3" chambers and a sectioned one.


Photo 2. The same slug loaded in a 12 gauge, 3" hull.


George

Lefteris,

Looks really nice. You do need to find a venture capitalist and put them into production. Living as I do in a shotgun for deer state where the choice is shotgun or muzzleloader, I know that you would sell many of these if you market them here.

Best wishes and thanks for sharing the news,

that is cool as hell!!!!!!!!!!!!

DAMIT I WANT SOME!!!!!!!!!

ED, LETS GET THESE THINGS TESTED IN THE 12GFH!

yeahaw!

Finding or making sabots is the
bottleneck.Most 12ga sabots are for 50cal
bullets. An older Barnes one here is
for a .580 bullet.There may be something
but haven't find it yet.Ed

sabots, sabots, sabots!!!!

me wanna some too! Those are too cool.

Good job, Lefteris!

one side benefit of the design is you will have enough ground meat from that hole in the middle to make a burger when you get home that night

or string jerky

all kidding aside that is way cool...

Gentlemen,
Shotgun sabots, unlike shotgun wads, are specifically made for the slug to be used with. There are not universall sabots for shotgus, like the ones for rifles to be used with subcaliber bullets with different weight and length. The parameters of a successful sabot design, at least in my opinion, are as follows:
1. It must be of such a design, preferably one-piece, that completely enclose the slug and grip it so it can not come out due to recoil.
2. It prevents blow-by of expanding gases.
3. Compress when passing through chokes.
4. Protects the barrel from the slug, especially with brass slugs.
5. Easily separates from the slug after muzzle exit especially with no rifling to assist separation. During separation must not disturb slug accuracy and stability.
6. Is accurately molded, centering the slug in the barrel tube.
This specific slug design creates additional problems. The big hole at its base must be filled with some kind of filler, otherwise the gases destroy the overpowder part of the sabot and blowby. This filler material and design must be so made that it does not wedge in the hole and separates from the slug together with the sabot.
One piece sabot-base filler, with different materials for each one is quite difficult to be made. Maybe a two pice sabot-base filler could be made and connected mechanically to one piece.
In the next weeks I will experiment with some designs. I hope to find the right combination, sabot design-sabot material. We will see.
Sincerely,
Lefteris

Lefteris-I found these heavy 12ga shotcups that
I can use to test your slugs.I used them for my buckshot loads.They fit your diameter
very close like a sabot would. I justcut them back to the lengthneeded. Base is heavy
enough that it won't get shoved into your
hollowbase, with the powder I use. My slow
powders don't spike like fast shotgun powders.
If you send me about dozen of the 550 grain
I will see how fast they go.Ed.

Ed,
Let me know bore (land) and groove diameter of your barrel, leade diameter and length, overall cartridge length and inside case diameter where bullet sits. Does the shotcup, shown in the photo has thick walls? A width of at least .055 wall thickness is needed. Also, from what I have seen until now I do not think the overpowder section of any available wad is strong enough to withstand shotgun pressures using this slug. I do not dare to think about your "baby". I will try to turn some sabots out of polyethylene bar stock as close as your barrel groove diameter, with different lengths to accept 450, 550 and 750 grain slugs and harder plastic base filler wads for the slugs. If you can also load them in shotgun hulls at shotgun velocities for having a comparison, so much the better.
Lefteris

Lefteris- Bore is .719-- groove .729-
Inside case mouth .729.--Leade diameter .730--
Leade length is about 1 inch composed of
10 degree angle into the leade, .40 leade
length, and 2 degree angle to rifling.
This shotcup has .050 thick sides.I used it
with slightly smaller bullet than yours,
with paper patching.It has a real thick base,
and seems real tough.
I wonder if your bullet could be
made smaller and still have all the features
that makes it work great, getting sabots would be much easier. Like the old Barnes saboted 12ga with .58 diameter slug of copper with
the 6 peel back petals. Someone already had sabots made for that..Ed.

Ed,
There is a local dealer that has some Zabala Hermanos 213 magnum, 12 gauge, 3.5" chambered shotguns. Let me know what dimensions of this gun you are interested for. If I remember right these had 18.5mm bores (.728) and modified standard (no screw-in) choked barrels, although too long for my taste.
Lefteris

Lefteris--That info will be a big help.
Thanks ahead of time. We need barrel
length, breech diameter, muzzle diameter.
Also if they have 10 ga see if barrels are
same measurements on outside or bigger.Ed.

Ed,
I will e-mail you.
Lefteris

Looks like an excellent bear slug. Hope you find what you need to get it in production soon.

Cheers,

Dan

Dan,
Thank you. I also hope so.
Lefteris

Gentlemen
I have read, in this and other forums, as well, that most people believe that rifled slugs are intented to be used in smoothbore barrels and sabot slugs in rifled barrels. This is simply not true, at least always. What determines usage is not presence or absense of sabot itself. It is slug design. Let me give an example. We all know the Foster type slugs. Full bore diameter with rifling designed to be used in smoothbore barrels. Now, if we take the same slug with smaller diameter and put it in a sabot does not automatically makes it a rifle barrel slug. It can also be used in smoothbore barrels with same results. When I refer in slug design, I mean, slugs designed to be used in smoothbore barrels must have center of gravity in front of center of pressure of the wind, also known as arrow stabilization or nose heavy designs. Slugs designed to be used mainly in rifle barrels usually look like rifle bullets. In this design, barrel rifling corects any instability problems created by air drag. The sabot for the sabot type rifle barrel slugs, have another role to play. It has to do with slug material, barrel bore tolerances between individual manufacturers, choke constriction and barrel wall thickness. ANSI/SAAMI bore diameter for the 12 gauge smoothbore barrel is .725+.020. ANSI/SAAMI dimensions for rifled 12 gauge barrels are: groove diam.: .727+.002, bore diam.: .719+.002. In smoothbore barrels fit to bore diameter is what causes accuracy with a properly designed smoothbore slug. But how to properly design a slug with .020 bore dimension difference? This is the reason full bore slugs designed for smoothbore barrels are made with pure lead or slightly alloyed. And also to pass through chokes with no problems. Imagine a copper slug of say .730 diameter to be fired in a .725 bore, smoothbore barrel. Disaster. Same dimensions but slug made of pure lead, no problem at all. Dimension difference for rifle barrels are held much more tighter. Here sabots are used for various reasons. Either to be used with copper or brass slugs that by their nature are "hard" materials and so to also protect the barrel or because of weight and form restrictions or even because someone could be use them in a smaller diameter smoothbore barrel, by ignorance, possibly with a choke tube in place. What I am trying to say is that rifled slugs for smoothbore barrels and sabot slugs for rifled barrels is not panacea. Instead follow the manufacturer's recommendations for the proper use of their products.
Sincerely,
Lefteris

On the problem of sabots over a hollow base...could a gas check type of brass disk be crimped into the base of the sabot to support/seal it? It might also be able to be simply placed into the sabot before the slug is seated allowing it to fall away when the sabot discards itself.

Simple, easy to make, easy to install, and should be strong enough...

CDH,
Yes, it could be done and even better be made of steel, instead of brass, and embedded in the sabot through the molding process. Unfortunately, other people thought about it first and make such sabots. Since I don't like to deforce other people ideas, must find a solution of my own. Thank you for your interest.
Lefteris