The Magnum magazine reported a problem that hunters are experiencing with the lightweight Hawkeyes (7.75 lbs) in their September 2010 issue - the report is self explanatory and it is hoped that this problem has been reported to the Ruger corporation for action before it kills yet another innovative effort on a great cartridge.

The new Hawkeye features Ruger's improved LC6 trigger that promises to provide consistently better performance. A new wrinkle on the Ruger M77 in .375 Ruger is this sturdy, visible fixed-blade rear sight, a vast improvement over the folding-leaf sight long supplied on the M77 Mk II. The 375 Ruger slightly exceeds the .375 H&H in powder capacity - it is about six percent more than the .375 H&H.

Hornady claims a muzzle velocity of 2,682 fps with a 300 grain bullet.
All .375 Ruger ammunition manufactured by Hornady is in their Superformance line.
Recommended maximum pressure for the cartridge is 62,000 psi (4,300 bar).



It would be interesting to hear if AR members have experienced similar problems.
Perhaps a simple downloading exercise would solve the problem in the light weight Hawkeye?
Or perhaps the weight of the rifle should be stepped up a bit, or both to make it more pleasant to shoot?
Or perhaps redesigning the magazine box.

Warrior

Ruger seem to have problems with stocks over here.

The pads on them are crap and need replacing
with a decent recoil pad like a Limbsaver.


Rounds in the magazine - happens in most bigger calibres - definitely Mauser based guns I own.

Doesn't seem to affect the bullets or the performance.

.

I have shot my Hawkeye Alaskan in 375 Ruger a great deal and handloaded a few hundred rounds as well.. I never had a single issue. Never... But I never crimp the casemouth, cause I use a quite compressed load, preventing the bullets from moving deeper into the case in the mag under recoil. Regarding the bulletnoses - yes they get a slight hammering, but no more than in other bigbore rifles... And recoil is absolutely nothing to talk about. Actually I got so fond of the Hawkeye that I bought two extra, one rebarreled to Jeffes 458 Acc Rel (500 grs bullet at 2350 fps) and the other one is at the smith right now beeing changed to 500 Acc Rel (570 grs bullet at 2300 fps). The 458 was used in Zim this October taking three ellies. Flawless feed and function..

The CZ 375 H&H's are coming out with 9.3 Lb rifles and don't seem to have this problem as reported on with the 375 Ruger. Also PMP loads to a velocity of 2428 fps, and I guess that helps a bit too as most hunters are buying their ammo here in SA. The CZ offering is the most popular choice for South Africans wanting a .375 H&H as they have been well entrenched for decades in the SA market. Ruger had a late start in our country due to arms sanctions against us.

Here is another posting from Ripp on the NitroExpress forum way back on the 11 th April 2007:

"Ruger has apparently come out with 2 new short cartidges as a result of the .375 Ruger--they are in .338 and .300 caliber --titled-338 RCM and .300 RCM -Ruger Compact Magnums... interesting article in Guns & Ammo...

Apparently they are achieving 2750 fps for the .338 out of a 20" barrel--should make an awesome Alaskan Moose/bear gun..The article does state that the .338 does NOT have high pressures..

Coincidently, Terry Wieland just wrote a less than flattering article on the .375 Ruger ... His concern was with the high pressures needed to achieve the velocity out of the cartridge--which by the way,on his chronograph was about 100 plus fps slower than the claimed velocity..no real surprise there..also the lower weight of the rifles caused considerably recoil for caliber of this size

Terry warned those planning on taking this to Africa or Alaska after animals that bite back..to be careful on the loads --as with the high pressures.. could cause a problem, more so in Africa with the heat..other concerns was the "gritty" feel of the action and the "too" small safety on the rifle itself for a dangerous game rifle."

Warrior

Terry Wieland is a stupid idiot. He has proved that many times.. Dont take his words for good..

quote:

Originally posted by buffalo:
Terry Wieland is a stupid idiot. He has proved that many times.. Don’t take his words for good..

A very opinionated stupid idiot who is a recoil weenie as well.

I'll echo what Buffalo said. I've shot the piss out of mine and other than the minor bullet tip blemishes common to heavier recoiling guns, I haven't had a single issue.

I have the Alaskan model so I haven't had any splitting issues with the Hogue stock.

The trigger was rough at first and I was thinking of stoning it clean but it has worked itself out quite nicely.

I DO wish Ruger would start putting a solid rear sight on the heavier No. 1's! The rear sight on my Alaskan is lovely. I approached one of the Ruger guys this year at SCI in Reno about it and he told me 'not to hold my breath'.

On 24Hourcampfire there is also mention made of splitting stocks - perhaps the wood is too thin in the grip area and no cross bolt at the rear?

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...16_Ruger#Post3800021

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...16_Ruger#Post4044828

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...16_Ruger#Post4639946

"The recoil lug on the Hawkeye African is no different than the recoil lug on the M77 RSM - the RSM being chambered in such calibers as the 375H&, 416 Rigby, and so on. The difference is that the RSM has a beefier stock and employs a second recoil lug on the barrel. Maybe Ruger should consider a barrel lug on the Hawkeye as well."

Warrior

No such problems on mine 375 African eighter.
But to be honest, I did give it an upgrade before starting shooting it.
Bedding, another cross bolt between magazin and trigger and Pachmayr pad.

Recoil is faster and more "snappy" than on my 375 H&H M70, but it´s not an issue at all.



And accuracy is ok for hunting purposes.
4 270 grn TSX, 100 meters from bench


And three 270 grn Swift A-Frames.

I remember way back Harald Wolf writing in his magazine (Hatari Times) that Mauser had found a way to avoid a bullet moving in their magazine (a special design) - not sure exactly of the details anymore. I should try and find it and make a posting about it. If I am not mistaken, it was in his article about the 404 Jeff.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
I remember way back Harold Wolf writing in his magazine that Mauser had found a way to avoid a bullet moving in their magazine (a special design) - not sure exactly of the details anymore. I should try and find it and make a posting about it. If I am not mistaken, it was in his article about the 404 Jeff.

Warrior

Would have been nice if they had implemented it !!!

My Magnum Mauser 505 Gibbs is one of the worst.

My Jeffrey 375H&H is also bad.

I think the tightness of the Magazine is one of the issues.

.

Hatari Times International No.9

Romancing the long rifle by Harald Wolf - page 23
..............................................................................

"The problem with powerful calibers - and the 8x68S can be termed one, in that the bullet tips in the magazine get hammered by the recoil. The cartridges are smashed against the front wall of the magazine box. Sooner or later the bullet tips are damaged, or even get driven into the case, thus increasing the pressure. As with any problem, the Mauser engineers already had a solution to solve the issue 70 years ago. The screwed the vertical rail to the rear left and right inside the walls of the box. The extractor recess of every cartridge pushed into the magazine. hooks behind these rails and thus cannot move horizontally. Genius and yet simple!"

Harald made a slight change .... "Since I made the magazine box from full steel bar stock (for his 8x68S), I milled and filed into the steel rather than screwing or soldering on the rails of the side-walls. .... I have now adapted this rail to any big bore rifle magazine".

On Harald's 8x60 Magnum, on his existing magazine box that is, he opted for soldering ..... "To prevent the bullet tips from damage I silver soldered shoulder supports to the side-walls of the magazine box".

These shoulder supports lie parallel with the neck length of the case, close to the shoulder so that there is just enough play not to hinder feeding, and so prevent the bullet tip from slamming against the front of the magazine box when a round is fired.

Warrior

Most engineering decisions involve some trade off - cost vs performance, or reliability vs. performance, or something else. In this case, holding rounds back from damage in the magazine, I would worry about any slight trade off for reliable feeding. It seems this would be easier to control in a single stack magazine, but them the trade off is capacity or style.

Too bad Ruger does not split the difference between the Hawkeye and RSM with and 8 1/2 pound, cross bolted, 375H&H based on the RSM action.

Yes, everything in life is a trade-off - in recoil effect, it is true as well:

Ruger RSM .375 H&H ------- 10.00 Lbs ...... 300 gr @ 2,530 fps ----> lowest recoil
Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan ---- 8.00 Lbs ...... 300 gr @ 2,682 fps
Ruger Hawkeye African ------ 7.75 Lbs ...... 300 gr @ 2,682 fps ----> highest recoil

In design we also have trade-off's applied to heavy recoiling cartridges.

The quality of wood, the weight of the stock and the way the lines of the grain run through the grip area.
The thickness of the wood in the grip area (some thinner than others) and around the action.
The number and type of cross-bolts (some round & some square like original Mauser).
The number and type of recoil lugs and the amount of wood between the front recoil lug (some actions offer more).
The use of aliminium bedding or not, etc.

All the above stand in relation to recoil energy.

Even the amount of play in the magazine of a loaded round ito inertia potential would affect the extent of the smash on the bullet's tip.

Warrior

More on the cross bolt being square .... Ralf Martini of Martini Gunmakers LTD, Canada, was approached by Heym in 2008 to design a new stock for their proven "Express rifle". Weight of this rifle 9 lbs without scope - 375 H&H.

And this is what he did for them (quotation off his site):

"A square steel cross bolt was installed also where it counts, contacting the back of the recoil lug and the bottom of the receiver".

Danie Joubert of SA, also makes his own square cross-bolts for his custom Mausers that he makes.

Warrior

The cross-bolts are essentially for structurally reinforcing the stock, and when fitted badly or not at all, the risk will increase commensurately for cracks or even splits to develop.

For example, the K98 Mauser usually has one that keeps the recoil lug in place. On rifles with these it prevents splitting of the wood in a couple of places; usually in the recoil lug area and behind the magazine and in front of the trigger. And usually there are only two screws holding the action in place on a Mauser type rifle. The Mauser action has a tiny recoil lug and in addition a reduced amount of wood behind the recoil lug making it more prone to cracks on high recoiling rifles.

When the recoil lug on the action is not touching the recoil shelf on the wooden stock, the stage is set for hairline cracks to develop. As the barreled action recoils backwards when a shot is fired, and if the recoil lug isn't working the way it should, the action recoils against the 'action screws' and the 'trigger guard assembly', and eventually the tip of the tang starts hitting the stock and it splits.

Rifle stocks can become damaged in a number of ways and the most prominent areas seems to be:

In the tang area at the top in the grip section.
Behind the front recoil lug that takes the punishment first.
On the side of the receiver where the stock has been weakened where the cut is made for the bolt handle recess.
By the action screws and trigger guard tang areas.

Cracked stocks have occurred on rifles with lesser recoil than a 375 H&H due to some of the above factors at work - essentially bad fitting. Here is an example of a 7 mm rifle without any cross-bolts.



Warrior

Warrior,I have added you to my buddies list.

Rifles for hunting dangerous game must be able to reliably shoot time and again with no problems. It requires reliable and smooth feeding and extraction, and a stock fitted in such a fashion so as to absorb the recoil without the fear of a broken stock. Most factory offerings is not up to scratch and requires customization. If Ruger would would go the extra mile, they could place themselves ahead of its competition.

This needs special attention on DG rifles (from a 375 H&H and up), especially those built on the K98 actions. The one standard Mauser recoil lug on the action that is normally mated to a square cross bolt passing through the stock is totally inadequate to prevent the destruction of the stock by the heavy recoil of a big-bore. So a second recoil lug is usually sweated to the barrel and inletted into the fore-end of the stock, then Brownells’ Steel Bed is applied appropriately, and a second cross bolt fitted ahead of the trigger. Any stock will perform better if it is glass bedded as its purpose is to obtain the most perfect fit you can get, with full contact between stock and action so as to enhance the stability and accuracy of the rifle.

Without these modifications, it would not withstand the rigors of the first hundred rounds. A friend of mine, who is a gunsmith, does these conversions for game wardens and PH's on a regular basis.

Warrior

"IN ORDER TO HELP YOU TO INTELLIGENTLY CHOOSE THE SYNTHETIC STOCKS MOST SUITED TO YOUR NEEDS, WE HAVE COLLECTED THE MOST USUAL QUESTIONS ASKED US BY INQUIRIES, AND ANSWERED THEM FOR YOU. HOW CAN A PERSON TELL A GOOD QUALITY FIBERGLASS STOCK FROM A POOR ONE? WHAT IS THE "ALUMINUM BEDDING BLOCK" THAT'S BEEN PROMOTED SO MUCH?" ..... MPI STOCKS

http://www.mpistocks.com/qanda.htm

Would love to hear some comments on this and alternative stocks of preference.

Warrior

quote:

Here is an example of a 7 mm rifle without any cross-bolts.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! Come on man! No one needs cross bolts in a 7mm or any other properly designed rifle for that matter. This here cracked 7mm stock just happens to have a big Oprah sized defect in the lumber where ... holy shit! ''' the crack happens to be located. Shit materials always yield a shit product Chris, stocks are no exception.

Mac,

Yes bad materials and bad bad fitting that is the way it is. Bad fitting with good wood will destroy the wood that is what I am essentially saying. Bad wood is bad judgement no matter how it is fitted .... but recoil will get to the bad spot in the wood, not so?

A well fitted stock in a 7x57 does not generally need a cross bolt, but on a K98 Mauser action I DO prefer it as:

a) it has a tiny recoil lug, and in addition
b) it has a small amount of wood behind the recoil lug

So why do take the chance to save a penny on a cross-bolt. It does not make any sense!!!

Warrior.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
Yes bad materials and bad bad fitting that is the way it is. Bad fitting with good wood will destroy the wood that is what I am essentially saying. Bad wood is bad judgement no matter how it is fitted .... but recoil will get to the bad spot in the wood, not so?

Warrior.

All true Mi Amigo! Interesting, my .460 Wby launches 500 grain whatevers from 115 grains of RL19 with no cross bolts or other magic. That stock is rather svelte in my book and yet no crackage ... maybe Roy knew what he was doing eh.

Here we can see that the Germans, for the reasons that I have mentioned in my prior post, have fitted the Kar98 military rifle (8x57 mm) with at least one cross-bolt in the Mauser's weakest spot just behind the recoil lug.



A rifle that is bound to see some usage.

Warrior

Here is a classical example of what typically happens.

This cool little 8mm BRNO (8x57 mm) also suffered a stock split behind the tang.

No cross bolt has been fitted on this Brno 21 rifle (Mauser action).

http://www.coltforum.com/forum...p=195128&postcount=1

Warrior

can somebody explain please how the square recoil lug is inletted? I prefer the look of the head on the square one, and for that reason kept one or two in case they could be used int eh future, just wasn't sure how they were installed since a round one is just drilled and inserted.

Red

Vektor used to make a copy of the original Oberndorf double square bridge Magnum Mauser action, but with quite a few improvements, one of which were:-

The recoil lug has been shifted 7.5 mm further forward on the receiver ring to allow a greater thickness of wood behind it, which strengthens the stock against the heavy recoiling cartridges.

I am not sure if this was also done with other high-end Mauser actions such as Wells, Hartmann & Weiss and Reimer Johanssen.

Warrior

quote:

the Germans, for the reasons

Reasons were to hold the stock onto the metal apparatus for improved beating of communists upside the head once the ammo factories had been bombed to dust ...

Mac,
Warrior is trying to carry on a serious conversation with himself here and you keep interrupting!

quote:

Originally posted by Low Wall:
Mac,
Warrior is trying to carry on a serious conversation with himself here and you keep interrupting!

Touche'

Low Wall,

It would help a great deal if you would contribute something of value. I tried to post some interesting information as far as I could. If you differ, then by all means put it up. If you have better information, that would even be better.

Thanks
Warrior

I have a hogue stock on mine - it shoots quite well (local 'smith did a great trigger job on it) but it has two problems.

A) For some reason, it occasionally flings out a loaded round along w. the empty - unfortunately, it doesn't do this regularly, so I haven't been able to figure it out

B) Sometimes, the rounds won't go down on a fully loaded magazine, and the "+1" round jams into the one in the magazine.

Aglifter,

My suggestion would be to take it back to Ruger and let them attend to it.
You may just have a lemon here.

Warrior

Some stats from Ganyana on stock splits that he has seen in the last 4 years ....

http://forums.accuratereloadin...911069401#9911069401

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by 500N:

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
I remember way back Harold Wolf writing in his magazine that Mauser had found a way to avoid a bullet moving in their magazine (a special design) - not sure exactly of the details anymore. I should try and find it and make a posting about it. If I am not mistaken, it was in his article about the 404 Jeff.

Warrior

Would have been nice if they had implemented it !!!

My Magnum Mauser 505 Gibbs is one of the worst.

My Jeffrey 375H&H is also bad.

I think the tightness of the Magazine is one of the issues.

.

Some late Oberndorf sporters had this type of magazine.
I had a 9.3X64 DSB with such but the little rails were machined with the magazine.
The best I can describe them is that they are little peaks which fit between the rim and the base of the case in a similar way that shells are aligned in a stripper clip.
As far as I know, they were never utilized in the magnum length action which is, of course, the action they would be most appropriate in.
Ruger could do this very easily seeing as the Ruger cartridges have no rebate in the rim diameter.

The late Finn Aagaard, Kenyan PH and writer for the NRA magazines, did shoot a Model 70 .375 H&H and he commented in his book that he had to add cross-bolts due to stock splitting on more than one .375 H&H rifle that he owned.

Here is a typical custom made barrel recoil lug - the barrel is dovetailed and lug is bronzed:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=495107868#495107868

Going bigger and more powerful to the recoil level of the 416 Rigby and 458 Lott, a second recoil lug underneath the barrel would be a very good investment. A second recoil lug is actually very cheap insurance on a nice piece of wood, considering what the prices are today to have a custom stock made from Turkish Walnut.

At this level of recoil, one will need an adequately reinforced stock. The preferred method is to cut a shallow dovetail in the barrel and silver solder the dovetailed recoil lug in place approximately 5" forward of the receiver ring. The barrel lug is far stronger than the receiver lug since there is a great deal more wood supporting it. It would be prudent to have both the 'action recoil lug' and the 'under barrel lug' glass or steel bedded, and with 2 cross-bolts to reinforce the stock both fore and aft the magazine box.

This is standard practice on DG rifles for SA custom builders to fit a second recoil lug on the barrel and glass-bed it properly in place. The tang area gets bedded as well. You also need about .020" to .030" clearance between the tang and the stock, and if this clearance is not there the stock will be wedged by the tang and split. Take note, cross bolting will not keep the tang from wedging the stock.

Ganyana's advice - all rifles above .375 should be cross bolted and glass bedded:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=307109215#307109215

Bedding is not an option on heavy recoiling rifles:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...?r=99210427#99210427

We have talked alot abot the way the CZ 550 stocks have cracked in the 458 Lott:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=802104233#802104233

Warrior

"I read Boddington's book Safari Rifles and he said there isn't 1 gun company making a rifle that is Africa ready: every rifle sold will need the stock bedded and crossbolted, and maybe some action work, to have it ready for dangerous game." ...... jjs

Warrior

I have had no problems out of my Alaskan 375.
I cannot say enough good things about it.
I groups like a target rifle. I am getting under .75" groups at 100 yards. Recoil is not light but not as bad as some I have owned.

JM2CW

I own a Ruger M77 in .243 Win with a laminated stock and it shoots glover leave groups if I do my part. Rugers became quite popular here in SA. Most all my friends own Rugers ... and mostly stainless steel ones as well, which was quite new at the time (1987) after the arms embargo was lifted and they started to come into the country.

Many Remington fans scoffed at Ruger owners as they believed that their Remingtons were more accurate, but they could never demonstrate it in their factory versions.

Most all the .243 Win/.308 Win & 30-06's were snatched up to the point were there is today a scarcity of these Rugers. They are selling like hot cakes ... then and now if you can get one.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by 22Rimfire:
I have had no problems out of my Alaskan 375.
I cannot say enough good things about it.
I groups like a target rifle. I am getting under .75" groups at 100 yards. Recoil is not light but not as bad as some I have owned.

JM2CW

I will second that statement. Exceptional accuracy right out of the box, and feed and function works 100%.
Cant be more satisfied..


Ulrik