The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .375 Ruger M77 Hawkeye HiccupsGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Craig Boddington on the 375 Ruger ... firing a warning shot on the recoil aspect, which brings in both factors of unnecessary high velocity on DG and a rifle that is too light. Here is a post on 24 Hour Campfire: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/..._the_375#Post1230798 This is essentially the point I raised as well ... how sensible is it: Ruger Hawkeye African ------ 7.75 Lbs ...... 300 gr @ 2,682 fps ----> high recoil Drop the velocity and the pressure and it will be more comfortable. A high-pressure gun could easily be turned into a moderate pressure gun. This is a DG rifle, right? So why chasing the velocity? A near 2,700 fps is not needed to hunt the African buffalo. My take is the lower velocity is more appropriate in any event. Warrior | |||
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Just goes to show that you can't believe half the junk theory you read in print, including most everything intended by the OP in this thread. It's already evident by the success and the mounting Empirical data that the 375/416 Rugers have been an overwhelming success. They plain just work well with a huge volume of happy owners. I'm a big fan of the 375H&H and a huge fan of the 416Rem, but I'm conviced that if they were being released today as new cartridges side by side with the Rugers, they would never survive. And for the 416Rigby, as noted by Phil Shoemaker, there's been more 416Rugers sold and put into use over the last two years than all Rigbys sold in the last 100 years. I'd not get so torqued around the axle over this stuff, the old beloved cartridges have enough vested history that they'll be around for a good while. As for the Rugers, they are just so well thought out and so well designed, they'll also be around for a good while. It's win-win for everyone because we have more choices. Best  | |||
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Gary, It is nothing against the cartridge, it is about making it better. It is about building the rifle better with 2 cross-bolts and proper bedding. Dropping the velocity will reduce the pressure and making it so much better in my opinion. That velocity of Horandy is moot for DG hunting. Warrior | |||
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Tell that to Saeed with his 375/404. It's hard to find anyone who can drop a Cape Buffalo any faster and any harder, no matter how much bigger, than with his slightly faster 375 bullet. Go get you an African 375Ruger and bed the barreled action into the stock. Use something that works like Marine-Tex. When doing so, spend the extra few minutes to drill and reinforce the thin web area between the trigger and mag box inlets. You'll have no issues. You could even drop a 416Alaskan in the stock and have no issues. You should be doing this extra bedding work with any of those factory rifles, even your favorites that already have a second crossbolt. Factory 375H&H (and up) out of the box wood stocked rifles that will split this thin web area without proper bedding and reinforcement, every last one of them, including the fancy Ruger Magnums, the CZ 550Magnums, the M70 Safaris, etc. Every last one of them have a history of this from the effects of the stock sidewalls pushing out during recoil. If you wish to write a drawn out essay on how "the sky is falling" with dangerous game rifles, choose something worthy. How about look into the POS Rube Goldberg designed CZ trigger/sear with the toy like paperclip spring. That will stop the rifle from functioning cold in its tracks. You can then show how smoothly and quickly the CZ cycles all the cartridges out the mag box without being able to fire a single shot.  Later | |||
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Well, I'm considering getting a 416 Ruger Alaskan. I look forward to pushing a 350 grain TTSX bullet at 2600fps in a 7.9 pound rifle (8.7 lb with Nikon Monarch 2-8 scope). Is recoil a problem? Not to the shooter. I've been experimenting with a scoped Tikka at 7.3 pounds in 338 WM, shooting 300 grain Woodleighs at 2400-2470 fps. The bullets group nice and the rifle feels nice (it has a Limbsaver on it). BUT -- I've had to switch to steel rings. The factory Tikka rings are aluminum. Look what happened with the 300 grain bullets (basically a mild-medium 375 load in a lightweight mountain gun):   Tikka sent replacement rings but careful examination showed that they too have too thin of a back wall to hold the retaining pin. So I've switched to Warne permanent in steel. Problem appears to be solved. Anyway, when hunting, recoil is not the issue, carrying the gun is the issue. Ruger's model in under 9 pounds, scoped, beats a scoped 10.7 pound 416 Rigby. And for the backup rounds, I would put flat-nosed solids in the magazine, pushed against the front, and yes, by all means cycle them. They make great finishing shots and also great 'oilers' and 'sight-ins' if they are the same weight and velocity as your first bullet. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Gary, I think you have raised a very valid point of concern regarding the CZ 'paperclip' spring, and yes the sky will be falling out of the air when it fails when you have a buffalo charge. And yes companies have to heed our calls when pointed out. No need for me to add what you have already said. In similar fashion Ruger must heed calls of PH's reporting problems on the .375 Ruger. Sighting Saeed as the norm and comparing him with the average or occasional shooter is inappropriate, it is just like comparing Bell shooting elephant with his 7 mm Mauser when the average hunter will surely fail. My comment of anything over 2,400 fps with a 300 grain bullet is directed at Mr. Average. This is supported by many PH's that see this daily, and in this regard Doctari even makes mention in his book that he offered his 9,3x62 many a time to clients to shoot buffalo. So the recoil issue is for real, perhaps not for us gun nuts, but certainly for many others out there. I would not place too much emphasis on a rifle just being a 1 lb lighter to save the day. When I was in the Army I ran the whole day with skeleton webbing, a steel helmet and a rifle that is far heavier, so that is actually largely a fitness issue rather than a rifle weight issue. The US soldiers run around in heavy bullet proof vets weighing more than 1 lb of rifle weight in a hunting rig that is at issue here. (A medium size tactical vest weighs 30 lbs) When Koos Barnard of Man Magazine reported the problem with the .375 Ruger in their magazine, I do believe that it was based on actual experience, and it is not a non event. It is something that deserves attention. Warrior | |||
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Some of us like the velocity for hartebeest and eland. The 416 Ruger ought to be able to safely produce 350 grain at 2600 fps in handloads, even with its 20" barrel. That will be nice with the new 350 grain TTSX due out this month. And the weight difference between the Ruger Alaskan and the CZ-416 Rigby is just about two pounds. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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There is actually no excuse for a manufacturer in my books for a rifle in .375 caliber that causes cracked stocks, no matter the manufacturer. They should know better and not sell a product for good money that does not last even 30 rounds as we have already seen with the .375 Ruger. It is essentially a non working product and is going to cost the prospective and non suspecting buyer plenty money once he has a cracked stock and then hire a gunsmith to replace the broken stock. Also the unwarranted hassle of the whole thing or that it happens to you on your 1 st African Safari having fired it on the range just to get it on zero with less than 30 rounds and one shot 31 leaves you in the lurch. Another warning report right here: ..... http://forums.outdoorsdirector...iewfull=1#post219043 Warrior | |||
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Gentlemen Here's my Ruger and NO it's not an African, It's my 458 AccRel, I have shot nearly 200 rounds thru this rifle at the equivelent to 458 Lott loads or better and it's still going strong, and it's in another recoil class to the 375 Ruger.   All this from an action and stock that started life as a Ruger Hawkeye 338 WM . I'm not sure it needs to become a big issue with Ruger, just a few simple extras, like as I have done, duel crossbolt, barrel lug, bed and releave the rear tang, surely Ruger could do this, it's not rocket science, Hell I'm no gunsmith but I did all this myself and still doing bits and pieces to it. regards S&F | |||
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i think the only hiccup the 375 RUGER has is when the trigger is pulled !! | |||
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the defense of those supporting a lost cause is to decry that the "better" of the better thing isn't important .. so, what you are saying is a 45/70 is a fine DG gun, with 500gr woodleigh bullets, as velocity of the 458lott is over rated? silliness opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Dang, Joe, that still looks nice to me! opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Shortandfat, Well done and hope you enjoy it.  Ruger has done so well on so many things, and it is unthinkable that they have slipped so badly on the 375 Ruger, as they should know better having been so long in the business. Velocity can be a major detriment to bullet performance with regard to Softs, and if velocity pushes one to near 65000 psi, it is unbecoming of what a DG rig should be all about in hot tropical conditions of Africa. More emphasis on what makes a Safari rifle is much more important than to push velocity just to say this cartridge is faster than the next. It is a myth to say velocity kills, that some hold dearly. Most soft bullets integrity will be impaired by a near 2700 fps (as with the 375 Ruger) at point blank range at which distance many buffalos are being shot. Bullet performance of Soft expanding bullets is much better such as in the 375 H&H where many PH's load only to 2400 fps. This is not even debatable. The 458 Lott has become so popular in Africa and loaded to 2250 fps it has become the mainstay of DG in Africa, and probably will be so for a long time. Warrior | |||
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For a long time, Ruger was old man Ruger's baby. I think we got some great guns based on his idea of what was an interesting gun. The Number 1 single shot for instance. Ruger neglected some strong trends in handguns and rifles that other's took the lead in and Ruger is now only playing catch up (since Mr. Ruger passed away and new leadership has taken charge). Unfortunately, I think Ruger should develop a better understanding of certain demographic segments of the gun and hunting community. In particular, our group. Interest in African/big game/big bore hunting has taken off in the past 10 years. The Ruger RSM has never taken off as a mass-market phenomenon. The big bore Alaskan/African Hawkeyes are a great concept and seem to be pretty popular. However, I think Ruger should have done a bit better analysis of both who WE are and what WE want in a dangerous game rifle. They should have talked more to Craig Boddington than the guys who are selling the AR-15/SR9 line of products. Absolute bulletproof reliability should have been job one and that includes the stock. Besides the fact that I can't stand the look and feel of the Hogue rubber stock, it clearly has durability and reliability issues. They need to fix all problems that have been brought to light from in the field use. Price it a little below the CZ 550s and it should be a winner. I plan to get a Alaskan 416 with the black finish next year, but if they still have that hideous Hogue stock, it will come off and be put up for sale for the price of shipping! Dave | |||
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And that is half the problem. People will buy it because of slightly cheaper price as people can't seen to evaluate between things IMHO except based on price. So everyone prices things just under what everyone else does. The fact of No cross bolts, badly inletted tang, stock cracks, doesn't matter, the purchaser "got a great deal on a 375" or got a 375 for under $900", I only paid $895 !!! Sorry, Just my HO. . | |||
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I have found this thread interesting. At the risk of derailing the topic, I'd like to ask a question. I am new to the bigbore realm so forgive the ignorance of my question! I hear a lot about recoil lugs and cross bolts. What are they? From the conversation I am inferring that a recoil lug is an attachment point that you screw the stock into the action. And a cross bolt is some kind of bolt that goes from side to side across the stock and provides some kind of bracing during recoil. Is that accurate? | |||
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I own Rugers of all sorts and sizes as well as other mfg's and overall they are a fine product. Not sure just how much of the available market "big bore" rifles represents, but from a pure sales/market viewpoint, doubt many other mfg.'s are in the same volume level as Ruger with all it's faults. Sales for 2010 approaching 300,000,000.00 with income in the range of 10% or 30,000,000.00 Remington, Bushmaster, Smith and Wesson, ThompsonCenter, Marlin and so on as a conglomerate I am sure would produce some large volume numbers, but individually would be hard pressed to equal Ruger. In short, they are doing something correct and few have been more innovative in the firearms industry. I for one will keep my Rugers and most likely buy more as time goes. | |||
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Recoil lug is the rectangular (normally) piece of metal at the front of the action that goes into a slot in the stock and as you say, sometimes a screw goes in here. This can be and is sometimes "bedded in" using a bedding compound to get a tighter, better fit. (The above applies to Most bolt action guns EXCEPT Tikka T3's (and I think Tikka 595 and 695) where the recoil lug is a loose piece of metal and "slots" into the slot on the action). Cross Bolt - as you describe - you can see them, normally blued caps in the stock just below the front and rear of the action. . | |||
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Excellent, thanks! | |||
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Rob I just re read your question. Cross bolts tend to be specific to bigger bores / bigger calibres. However nearly all Bolt Action guns have RECOIL Lugs at the front of the action, REGARDLESS of calibre. . | |||
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Rob, the screws in the rifle do very little to stop the action hitting you in the face, basically they just hold the wooden stock to the action. What stops the action coming back is the recoil lug(s), Now in Rugers they look like this. ON the left is the action lug its the little lug/flap hanging down off the bottem of the front of the action, and in "most" cases the front action screw generally screws into this lug. The one on the right is a second barrel lug that I had the gunsmith add to my rifle  Here's both recoil lugs and action bedded into my Ruger Hawkeye  So under recoil its these lugs that push back against the stock inletting to catch the recoil. Now If done properly the action shouldn't touch the stock anywhere else, what can cause cracks in the Ruger stocks is at the rear or the tang of the action, if the action is touching the stock here it will eventually split it open or take a piece out, you need to releave this, open it up, have a look at how much room I have at the back of my Ruger in the 500 AccRel, rear of the stock not touching the action att all, so its bearing only on the front recoil lugs  But wait there is more ........... Under recoil the stock absorbs the "push back" of the action and it actually wants to FLARE outwards around the magazine well, The weakest part of any stock is around the magazine well, lets face it, it just 2 thin walls about 1/3 inches thick, taking up ALL the recoil Have a look below I have marked in GREEN lines to show you the direction the recoil wants to move the stock, I have marked in RED where the stock can crack if the stock isnt supported with CROSSBOLTS. The Blues lines are where a stock can benefit from cross bolts Thru the webbing infront of the trigger (center) is a popular spot for Rugers to crack, once they crack here, it all turns to crud because the stock flares outwards even more than it should and it can crack anywhere.  So to support the stock we install cross bolts like these, not so much to reinforce it for rear force but for outward sideways force  Hope that helps regards S&F | |||
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Simply an outstanding explanation! thanks! | |||
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Because over the last 20 years, everyone has gone velocity mad. They just want to push things faster and faster, regardless of calibre. Just my HO. . | |||
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Here's my .375 Ruger broken stock preventer...courtesy of McMillan.  NRA Life Member | |||
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Good advice about using bedding compound in the recoil lug area and crossbolting the stock. Bedding is a good idea with any centerfire rifle and I certainly think crossbolts are worthwhile, especially on moderate to heavy recoiling rifles. Another thing shooters can do (which doesn't cost a penny) is to not follow the current common practice of shooting from the bench with the buttstock braced against 25 or 50 pounds of lead. The recoil impulse when a rifle is fired is enormous. The reason we shooters can handle it is because the impulse doesn't last very long. But the rifle simply has to be able to move back or something is going to give. Take most any centerfire rifle, remove the recoil pad (which does allow a bit of movement), place the butt against a concrete wall, fire a few rounds and you'll break any wood stock, no matter how much bedding, fitting, or crossbolting you do. Something is going to give, maybe not right away but eventually. Of course I doubt many shooters ship rifles to Ruger with notes saying: "I was shooting my new .375 with the stock braced against a 50-lb bag of lead. I wanted to shoot 50 rounds and tell my buddies what a tough and hardy man I am, unaffected by recoil. Unfortunately I broke the stock, my fault completely, please fit a new stock and send me an invoice for the cost." No, better to say I did everything right, it's your fault, your rifle is junk and your company greedy, give me a new stock at once! No one seems to admit to using lead bags on the bench yet I see it done all the time. I'm convinced it is at least a contributing factor to the seeming epidemic of cracked stocks. Reminds me of the Firestone 500 tire controversy of two or three decades ago during which every single driver involved in lawsuits insisted he checked and adjusted tire pressure every week, of course I did, not my fault! All the big bore shooters here know this, but for newcomers, when shooting hard-kicking rifles from the bench, raise the front and rear rests so you can sit up straight while shooting and the body can flex with recoil. Or if such is available use a standing bench rest, and don't shoot from the bench any more than necessary for sighting in and ammunition testing. If I need to do a lot of shooting in a short time I'll sometimes use a ten-pound shot bag, but placed between buttstock and shoulder, not on the bench. That way the body can still flex and let the rifle move under the recoil impulse. Of course I realize this advice doesn't apply to anyone here. We are all ten feet tall and bulletproof, able to handle any amount of recoil, never use weights on the bench, and if a stock cracks it is invariably the gunmakers fault. We check the tire pressure on all our vehicles every week too. | |||
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If the English and German's can make WOODEN stocks for heavy hitting bolt actions since the early 1900's, then sure as hell Ruger should be able to, especially with all the modern machinery and bits and pieces available. And without having to go to a Synthetic stock. . | |||
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I been following this thread and others on 9.3x62 in medium bore and this seems like a marriage made in heaven. That is the Ruger Alaskan/African and the 9.3x62. Heavy bullets at 2400 fps, five (or 4) down and less gun powder (ie efficient for those who care). Should be easy on the gun, easy on the shooter and proven world wide track record for killing game in the same class as the 375's. Too boring? Maybe Hornady could cookup a superformance load and we could call it new and improved? | |||
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If I were to choose between the 9.3 and the 375 Ruger, I'd go 375 Ruger. It you want slow, then use the Woodleigh 350 grainers, or the new Barnes 350 grain TSX. The 375 Ruger has the advantage of being legal for buffalo in Tanzania, though many a game warden will look the other way for the 9.3x62 or 338WM. And for $900 you can have a 416 Ruger Alsakan, which is even better for short with a whole lot of smack. Thanks to these heads up notices on stocks and bullet hammering, one can preemptively taken care of potential problems ahead of time. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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yes, but I think the vast majority of gun buyers dont want to buy a new gun as a fix-up project. For those, the 9.3 might be a good option. And many cannot take the recoil of an Alaskan in even a 375 let alone a 416. At least that was suggested a reason for all the returned Alaskans seen on the gun racks here in the North East. I dont know from first hand, but I think I am with you on the big 5 African DG that will bit or stomp back a 40 cal sounds good. In that case, I want a tad heavier gun, my RSM in Rigby would fit the bill - but thats just me. I think I am kind of average guy and feel comfortable with a scoped M70 in 375H&H and a scoped RSM in 416 Rigby. I am guessing, I could go either peep site or scope in 9.3 Alaskan. My theory dejour. Oh, almost forgot - THANK YOU ShortandFat for great detail photos and explanation. Here is a link to CZ550 carbine, $1000, 7 pounds, 20 in bbl, assumed no cracked stocks with Kevlar: http://cz-usa.com/products/view/550CarbineKevlar/ Will this sell in USA? I wonder. Will it function properly out of the box? Final edit: I did not want to suggest the 9.3 was available from Ruger, only a what if. It is offered by the something-for-everybody competition from the Check republik. | |||
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Don't worry about the stock cracking.Just put a half a teaspoon of acraglass in the front barrel lug slot and the same in the action lug slot and it will never crack.Then use a wrench to tighten the recoil action screw and use red loctite.This IMO,is THE way to do it-very simple. | |||
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In reality, most every new gun is a small fix-up project. I used to re-bed everything out of principle, but now I shoot first and have found the CZ550 and Tikka Hunters to be tight out of the box. (If it ain't broke ...) Personally, I shoot a Rigby in 416 because I can safely load it to over 6000 ft lbs (e.g. 350 grain TSX at 2800 fps). However, I will be in the US next summer and am thinking of picking up a 416 Ruger Alaskan, since it is 1.75 pounds lighter carry. Maybe it will be light enough to feel the recoil when hunting. Always fun. and reassuring. Now if there are a number of used 416 Ruger Alaskans on the market, maybe we can find something in the $650-700 range? That would really be nice. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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That is a nice looking rifle and a model of what Ruger might want to follow up on. I could be talked into a 458 Ruger over a 416 Ruger. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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What a pity you did not become a gunsmith....  | |||
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I think you misread his point – that more velocity is not absolutely better if you already have enough. The .375 made its rep by putting a 300gr .375 at 2500fps from 28” test barrels. And so for all practical purposes the classic .375 H&H made its bones at velocities closer to 2450 than 2500. Same with the .416 Rigby – its reputation was made with 410grs at 2350fps out of 28” test barrels. In regular Rigby rifles it was probably closer to 2300 in the field. The point being made is that the .375 & .416 Ruger cartridges have enough going for them that the additional velocity they deliver is superfluous for the type of hunting that they are being marketed for. Unfortunately, I think that magnumitis is so ingrained in the American hunting market, that Hornady was virtually compelled by the market to add the extra velocity to help push sales.
Ruger is a very successful business – but just because they are run with “professional BUSINESS management” doesn’t mean that they don’t build guns to hit a certain price point, and that sometimes it shows. Could they have bedded the wood stock from the beginning to be foolproof? Yeah, but it would have meant a price increase that would have cut into sales. And, after all, how many people outside a select group of enthusiasts would actually shoot the gun enough to induce a failure and bitch about it anyways??  . | |||
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Interesting that we have competing Ruger detractors - the first batch complained their new .375 cartridge was not fast enough, the new batch says it is too fast. Ya'll hash it out. I am going hunting.  | |||
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I have bought three Ruger 375s. I am a lefty and I have two of the 20" stainless with the grey laminate stock and one African model. The first grey laminate stock cracked at the tang after about 150 rounds went through it. The stock had been poorly fitted and I kept the original cheap red recoil pad on it. I am having it replaced with a McMillan stock, pillar and glass bedded. The other grey laminate I bought second hand and it already has a limbsaver on it and so far no problems. I took the African to Zim and made two one shot kills on tuskless eles with CM safaris in the Makuti area using 300 grain Barnes solids at about 2660 fps. One frontal and one side brain shot. I think 2660 fps is a little too fast for such close shots (both less than 20 yards)as the Barnes solid on the side brain shot ele had significantly deformed and might have tumbled a bit. Since I can't leave anything well enough alone I sent the barrel and action from the African to Classic Barrel Works in Arizona to have it rebored/rechambered to a 416 Ruger. I got it back surprisingly quick (about a month) and just popped it back into the original stock with no bedding, no new recoil pad and no additional cross bolts. I bet you can all guess where this little story is heading. I got four rounds of the Hornady DGX's through it once again a crack started to develope at the tang. I have since sent it off to Accuracy Innovations for a nice English Walnut stock with the aluminum bedding. I probably won't get it back till March. So the moral to the story is to get those cheap recoil pads replaced and the rifles properly bedded in order to avoid the stocks splitting. I really like the 375 Ruger, but just wish Ruger would spring for a better pad and maybe an extra crossbolt. Cheers, Mike STAY IN THE FIGHT! | |||
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Since the 375 Ruger is a recently introduced cartridge I am assuming that the solids were flatnosed. Any pictures or further description? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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They are BOTH WRONG! THere is no difference. Hornady superformance loads: 375H&H 300 gr DGS 2670 fps 375Ruger 300 gr DGS 2660 fps The only real difference is the H&H is available in dozens of loads all over the world and Ruger is only available in 3 loadings from Hornady with limited availability. The performance is "IDENTICAL". Well, maybe they are not BOTH wrong. You can find 2500fps H&H loads everywhere. So; if you dont want the unnecessary xtra speed H&H is offered in both. | |||
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foubore, Thanks for the info. In SA though our ammo producer PMP loads lower with our powders to avoid pressure problems: 286 gr PMP Solid @ 2493 fps 300 gr PMP Soft @ 2428 fps ----> Warrior | |||
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