This argument ( as usual ) is getting rediculous.......

Glued on bolt handle my Ass! Infallible extraction also stupid!

Any rifle, for that matter, any piece of equipment can fail.

Push feed has been used by the US military since the 03A3 was retired. The Marine corp M40 has hunted and still hunts the most dangerous game this planet has ever known.

I have both Win 70's, Ruger 77s and Remington 700s.

I have never had all these problems the 700 bashers are talking about. Other than one broken extractor on a 700, I do have a 98 clone in 458 that doesn't reliable eject though....

Go figger.


.

The comparison of a long range Sniper Rifle or any millitary application to reliable extraction whilst hunting dangerous game is absurd. That said, everything I posted about 700 actions is factual, "brazed" is a form of adhesion. BTW, I have nothing against PF actions, just 700s. A single stack Weatherby is about as realiable as it gets

I like the CRF but have noticed it's a lot easier for a manufacturer to screw up CRF than a push feed. I've had multiple CRF factory rifles that would bind up when trying to cycle rounds.

The CRF is a beautiful thing when done properly, but it's also easy to screw up if everything isn't to spec and if you've ever had a stubbern CRF, you know what I'm talking about. After some reshaping,polishing, and retentioning, I got the bad ones to work properly.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
The comparison of a long range Sniper Rifle or any millitary application to reliable extraction whilst hunting dangerous game is absurd.

jorge is absolutely correct here. If a person hunted DG at long range then a M-700 based sniper rifle would be a perfectly acceptable choice but ask any sniper if they would choose the same weapon if they were lead on an entry team?
And even that is not the same as wrinkling a large, dangerous animal out of the pucker brush.

What's absurd is saying the bolt handle on a Remington is "glued on" and the extractor is sheet metal.....

A sniper would not want the M40 on an entry team but that has nothing at all to do with push feed.....weight and length would most likely be one reason....rate of fire would be the other.... He would most likely take an M4 also a push feed . And NOT a single stack. oh my God an M-4 also has a detachable mag.....push feed and detachable mag......now that's just not to be done!

Weatherby? Really? Dear God!

Get a grip guys!


.

Say what you guys want, Chevys might be better than fords but if you're going to make it in NASCAR you'd best be driving a Toyota.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
What's absurd is saying the bolt handle on a Remington is "glued on" and the extractor is sheet metal.....

A sniper would not want the M40 on an entry team but that has nothing at all to do with push feed.....weight and length would most likely be one reason....rate of fire would be the other.... He would most likely take an M4 also a push feed . And NOT a single stack. oh my God an M-4 also has a detachable mag.....push feed and detachable mag......now that's just not to be done!

Weatherby? Really? Dear God!

Get a grip guys!


.

Maybe Ganyana will chime in on the flimsy 700 extractor, but all one has to do is Google these facts. Here's a picture for you. They are BRAZED ON and there is a reason as to why there is an entire cottage industry devoted to 700 maladys, safety (google that one for fun),extractors and of course bolts.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
This argument ( as usual ) is getting rediculous.......

Yes it is.

Due mostly to folk who want to place opinions and what they have read or heard and giving it the same weight in the argument with PURE field experience. If this tread was limited to shooters who have shot their PF and CRF rifles a minimum of 2,000 times using fully loaded magazines in the field and at the range extracting and chambering the rounds as though they were in a tight fix then the conclusion would be evident as it is with most guides and PH's. As the saying goes, "A person with an experience is never at the mercy of a person with an argument"

Argue on forum warriors, but using military snipers to reinforce either side is not relevant since they shoot what they are issued; not what they would choose if given the opportunity. And just so it is clear, those sniper weapons are well worked over by armorers. They are not you off-the-shelf Remington from Wal-Mart.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
What's absurd is saying the bolt handle on a Remington is "glued on" and the extractor is sheet metal.....

A sniper would not want the M40 on an entry team but that has nothing at all to do with push feed.....weight and length would most likely be one reason....rate of fire would be the other.... He would most likely take an M4 also a push feed . And NOT a single stack. oh my God an M-4 also has a detachable mag.....push feed and detachable mag......now that's just not to be done!

Weatherby? Really? Dear God!

Get a grip guys!


.

Maybe Ganyana will chime in on the flimsy 700 extractor, but all one has to do is Google these facts. Here's a picture for you. They are BRAZED ON and there is a reason as to why there is an entire cottage industry devoted to 700 maladys, safety (google that one for fun),extractors and of course bolts.

Brazed is a bit different than "glued".


If you cared you could find pictures of broken rifles of about every make. What's your point!

Brazing is the adhering of two metal surfaces by heat or solder. Either way the results are the same. I'm not getting through so I'll leave it alone. The data is there for all to see on 700s.

Yes it is! And gluing is glueing!

Anyone with any sense ( and you have a lot of sense ) knows there is a hell of a difference in Brazing and Glue! And those results are quite a bit different.

Any weld can break, any casting can break, any piece of metal can break. So what?

Jorge name one company that has been "continuosly" building and selling "commercial" rifles in the "number" that Remington has and still does? Are there gonna be some manufacturing flaws when you build in those numbers? Of course!

You don't like 700s, so what, Remington will manage just fine without you. Sounds like they already have.

And the data is out there, all over the place, it shows that they are damn fine, accurate rifles! The best selling rifle in the US actually.

Thanks and have a good one.

quote:

Hi Everyone:

I got one of the AIM Vz-24 on Sale a couple of weeks ago. Crest was partially ground off, but the stock looks new, and every part is deep blue black, with no use marks. Bore looks very good, but so far I still have not pulled a clean patch through it (using every solvent/bore cleaner on my bench!) No rust, just dirty/cosmoline type gook.

So on to my problem. When I took the bolt apart, I found the extractor collar is broken, and needs to be replaced. The price for the part ranges from 3.50 to 12.00. I also found a tool, for 28.00, to put these on/take them off. My question is, how hard is this piece to replace and do I need the tool? Has anybody done this and had a hard time with it? Or do I just find a gunsmith and pay them to do it for me? This looks like an easy fix, but I don't want to scratch up the bolt if I don't have to.

Thanks

By the way how is the Bolt knob attached to the bolt on a Mauser?

Jorge,

JTEX just did not get the joke about using Super Glue in pre-WWII Africa, as a field expedient to replace the brazed-on bolt handle of a Remington AFTER it fell off.
Of course M700's did not exist then either, which just adds to the humor.
Yep best to leave that to those with a sense of humor.
Hey! I thought it was funny.

Which bolt handles are machined or investment cast integral to the bolt body?
Mauser M98
Winchester M70
Ruger M77
CZ 550 Medium and Magnum and BRNO ZKK 602
Dakota M76
all CRF ...
Weatherby Mk V, PF!!!

If you can't bend a milsurp M98 bolt handle to suit, then you cut it off and solidly weld on a replacement near mid shaft instead of at the bolt body "stress riser" point.

Jim,
Thanks for posting some CRF accuracy pictures in addition to Jorge's. It is not hard to get a CRF accurate. Rusty McGee did my .500/.338 Lapua aka 12.7x68 "49-10" rifles.
Both are CRF, both have bolt handles made integral to bolt body, and it does not detract from accuracy supplied by Pac-Nor barrels and McMillan stocks on both.



BTW BTW, only one recoil lug on each rifle (Win M70 and BRNO ZKK 602),
but at least that one is made integral to the CRF action,
and is not merely a washer that is sandwiched between the barrel and the action like on a Remington M700.
That will fall off the action too, if you remove the barrel.
Just funnin' ...

The original point of this thread was to explain why and how one of the world's foremost builder of ultra-reliable rifles chooses to work on CRF SPORTING BOLT ACTION rifles.
It is also an interesting fact that the vast majority of experienced PH's who guide for dangerous game choose reliability over pure accuracy and such modern marvels as the M-700, that are casually built for the casual user, are seldom chosen.

My favorite push feed rifle: Ruger No.1

Phill Pitman my friend you are correct its easy to squeeze the extractor on a CFR and get the bolt to close on a round UNLESS a big black cape buffalo is just outside of your bubble, then its hard as hell to make it work!

Stuffing a round into the magazine of a bolt rifle is fast and you have to close the bolt no matter how you do it..I do that on a push feed or a CFR, make it a habbit..

In todays Africa, one has a PH and probably another rifle or two watching after you, so push feed or CFR is usually OK...I still prefer the CFR and will stick with them til hell freezes over, but to each his own on that subject, it shall haunt us til hell freezes over.

Pitiful, eh?
I have had only one extractor/ejector failure in 50 years of shooting.
It was a Remington 700 BDL 7mm Remington Magnum factory rifle with shiny walnut and and blue.
For some reason that tiny little extractor shaved brass enough to jamb up the ejector. Then the extractor broke off.
I don't own that rifle anymore,
but I do have a 700 BDl "Classic" 300 Wby and a 700 BDL Stainless Synthetic 7mm STW (and spare detachable box magazine) just for
and a .375 RUM which though very accurate, I would feel like I was slumming if I did anything more than shoot deer out of a tree stand with it ...

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:

Remingtons have a number of deficiencies, related to their creation as a budget rifle. Most of them have been covered here.

I have a friend who was a sniper in the USMC. In Nicaragua, the heat and humidity cause stuck cases, and kicking the bolt handle to clear them caused the handles to fall off--or the extractors to break.

That said the most reliable weapon in my safe is a push feed rifle--an AI AW.

Pardon me for starting this thread, it was nerver my intention to cause a fight (should have known better ).

My intention was to point out just how many details you need to take into consideration if you strive for perfection and 100% reliability in a bolt action hunting rifle.

An other interesting link in regards to bolt handles coming loose..
http://echolsrifles.blogspot.s...g-model-70-bolt.html

Which ever you choose and prefer, PF or CRF, my advise is make sure someone with the right qualifications has looked it over before firing it at a target capable of answering your aggression.

I think we all owe people like D'Arcy Echols, who unselfishly share their knowledge with us, a Big Thank You.

quote:

I think we all owe people like D'Arcy Echols, who unselfishly share their knowledge with us, a Big Thank You.

Damn Straight!


You didn't cause a fight.

I like getting these guys knickers in a knot over the push feed thing and especially over the Remington 700 thing.

Someone said I have no sense of humor?????

I really like all firearms, I find the differences very interesting. And I have quite a varied collection of rifles that I shoot.

In the dangerous game category I have killed 4 cape Buff 1 water buff and 1 bull elephant and 1 Hippo. Yep they where all CRF rifles, and those where killed with (Dear God) Ruger RSMs. 'Cept the elephant, that was a double. I don't have any large bore push feeds. If I did I wouldn't have been the least bit concerned using them though.

I cannot think of a single make of rifle that I have not heard of a problem with, and with the millions of 700s made plainly you are gonna hear of more problems.

This plainly ridiculous spewing of vitriol by people that prefer another type or manufacturer is just goofy. You reaaly have a hard time, today, finding a rifle made by a major manufacturer that isn't reliable and accurate. The "good old days" are today.

Tex: I save the vitriol for things other than a discussion of the facts or when my veracity is questioned. Everything I posted is factual. 700s are some of the most accurate (if not THE most accurate rifles) out there, but when I hear or read statements about Model 70s (or whatever) not being accurate and folks post target pictures to clearly show they are or when the issues with 700s are well documented and ignored (bolt, safety, extractors etc, not to mention the cottage industry around the 700s, bolt-peenings,Sako-style extractors and safety litigation issues that doesn't even lock the bolt, well, it's sort of fun to challenge the counterpoints. No vitriol, just internet bantering.

quote:

No vitriol, just internet bantering.

That I can live with!

Of course considering that the Model 70 couldn't keep Winchester from going broke and all.........and is now built by a foreign manufacturer to finally make it decent....

Mr. Jorge, you are, and have always been, a good guy!

Thank you sir. Well, they're still made is South Carolina?

A poorly made CRF is just as bad as a poorly made PF. (Why OEMs are only good as donors)

CRF theoretically has more which can go mechanically wrong (remember the Lon Paul and CZ whatevers vs the double rifle speed thread). PF theoretically have more of an opportunity for operator error. I was told by someone here Charlie Sisk prefers PF in his big bores for that reason. (My Sisk though is based on a Classic.)

Regardless........I prefer to say experience trumps Google

A well smithed CRF is as reliable as any well smithed PF. (See OEM above and Chevy v Ford, Blonde v brunette, I'm sure your wife is beautiful, etc.....)

But.......

Once you have either system go wrong, what is it they say......you won't ever go back. I had a brand new custom PF fail to pick up the cartridge as I was sighting it in/working up a load ? late 90s. It was too late for that deer season.........but I sold off all my PF (I collected Kleinguenthers) and began an obsession with Pre War Mod 70s.

Too easy....

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thank you sir. Well, they're still made is South Carolina?

You are most welcome. That does count for something!

Take care.


.

quote:

Which bolt handles are machined or investment cast integral to the bolt body?
Mauser M98
Winchester M70
Ruger M77
CZ 550 Medium and Magnum and BRNO ZKK 602
Dakota M76
all CRF ...
Weatherby Mk V, PF!!!

...

Is this a quiz or a statement? The Model 70 doesn't have an integral bolt handle, and hasn't since the year before I was born.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Which bolt handles are machined or investment cast integral to the bolt body?
Mauser M98
Winchester M70
Ruger M77
CZ 550 Medium and Magnum and BRNO ZKK 602
Dakota M76
all CRF ...
Weatherby Mk V, PF!!!

...

Is this a quiz or a statement? The Model 70 doesn't have an integral bolt handle, and hasn't since the year before I was born.

Thank you Dogleg,
I guess it was a quiz.
Reminds me of one of my deceased Pop's jokes about a mechanic who worked for him. The punch line was: "I guess it was a fart."
I will look into that one.
I am shocked to finally learn that Winchester M70 bolts are "brazed-on" and could need to be "Super-Glued" just like a Remington M700.

Live and learn.

At least Rugers are investment cast (bolt handle integral to bolt body) and properly heat treated.

Winchester M70 bolt handle not integral to bolt body?

They are actually splined on from the rear.

Ah, yes, unlike the Pre-64 M70 that had a one-piece construction,
bolt body and bolt handle all machined integral from one block of steel.
Still, the splined-on bolt handle has a full circumferential collar that meshes onto the bolt body rear like a two-piece drive shaft.
Much less likely to require Super Glue in the field.

Nice review in Wikipedia of M70 from oldest to newest, including the transitional model:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_70

Jack O'Connor, long a proponent of the Model 70, wrote of the post-'64 version that ". . .I was informed by Winchester brass that the Model 70 was being redesigned. I told them that I was glad to get the information so I could lay in four or five more before they loused the rifle up. Then I saw the pilot model of 'New Model 70.' At the first glimpse I like to fell into a swoon. The action was simplified, the trigger guard and floor plate made of a flimsy looking one-piece stamping." Despite this initial reaction, O'Connor grudgingly went on to say, "Actually the post-1964 Model 70 is not a bad rifle in spite of the fact that rifle aficionados have never taken it to their bosoms the way they did its predecessor. It is a stronger action than the pre-1964. The head of the bolt encloses the head of the case. It has a small, neat hook extractor, which is adequate. With this extractor the cartridge is not as surely controlled as it is with the Mauser-type extractor. However, the new model seldom gives feeding problems."

Starting from the beginning:

"The Winchester Model 70 is a bolt action sporting rifle. It has an iconic place in American sporting culture and has been held in high regard by shooters since it was introduced in 1936, earning the moniker "The Rifleman's Rifle".[1] The action has some design similarities to Mauser designs and it is a development of the earlier Winchester Model 54. The Model 70 was originally manufactured by the Winchester Repeating Arms Company between 1936 and 1980. From the early 1980s until 2006, Winchester rifles were manufactured by U.S. Repeating Arms under an agreement with Olin Corporation, allowing USRA to use the Winchester name and logo.[2] Model 70s were built in New Haven, Connecticut, from 1936 to 2006, when production ceased. In the fall of 2007, the Belgian company FN Herstal announced that Model 70 production would resume. As of 2012, new Winchester Model 70 rifles are now being made by FN Herstal in Columbia, South Carolina."

And another source:

http://www.gunnersden.com/inde...m.winchester-70.html

1936 - The Winchester Model 70 centerfire bolt action rifle was introduced, and it is the first centerfire bolt action designed by Winchester specifically for sporting use. These rifles were built in New Haven, Connecticut by skilled craftsman and women.
Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 General Specifications:
Rifle Type - Turnbolt Repeater.
Receiver - One piece machined steel forging. Slotted bridge.
Bolt - One piece machined steel with dual opposed forward locking lugs. Handle acts as safety lug. ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
My favorite push feed rifle: Ruger No.1

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
My favorite push feed rifle: Ruger No.1

Herein lies the problem --- I thought the No 1 was a controlled round feed

No problem.
It is the best PF for anyone.
It is also a high ranking CRF in skilled hands, just not tops there because of the magazine capacity issue: Ruger No.1

quote:

Chevys might be better than fords

not when it's my money doing the buying!!!!

And BTW.....what does a broken off bolt handle have to do with a CRF or PF debate.....these are two separate things....

quote:

And BTW.....what does a broken off bolt handle have to do with a CRF or PF debate.....these are two separate things....

Just another chance on AR to

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Herein lies the problem --- I thought the No 1 was a controlled round feed

Phil, I guess it depends on who's holding the cartridge....it might not be controlled round feed

Well this is a technical blog, every little issue must be investigated as its all important for no particular reason soooo

The number one is a control feed from the cartridge holder to the orfice of the chamber whereupon it becomes a push feed! Its so simple! However the catch is after the shot, not before as it becomes a PPG, commonly known as "push, pull feed" so all you guys are dead wrong!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Which bolt handles are machined or investment cast integral to the bolt body?
Mauser M98
Winchester M70
Ruger M77
CZ 550 Medium and Magnum and BRNO ZKK 602
Dakota M76
all CRF ...
Weatherby Mk V, PF!!!

...

Is this a quiz or a statement? The Model 70 doesn't have an integral bolt handle, and hasn't since the year before I was born.

Thank you Dogleg,
I guess it was a quiz.
Reminds me of one of my deceased Pop's jokes about a mechanic who worked for him. The punch line was: "I guess it was a fart."
I will look into that one.
I am shocked to finally learn that Winchester M70 bolts are "brazed-on" and could need to be "Super-Glued" just like a Remington M700.

Live and learn.

At least Rugers are investment cast (bolt handle integral to bolt body) and properly heat treated.

Winchester M70 bolt handle not integral to bolt body?

Yep the ruger bolts are all one piece and a big POS when the chips are down. Have had 2 and both would bind up when cyclingb the bolt fast. They would bind on extraction and feeding. No more Ruger 77 for me, but yes to the No1.

In reference to the 700 extractor failing for the Marine in Nicargar. I thought the Marine 700 had the rem extractor replace with a Sako style extractor?

PF, CRF, sako, mauser, rem extractors, what ever floats your boat. I have all sorts and have seen all fail and all work.

Now for DG do we go CRF or BA as in Break Action, that is a Double Rifle..........................................................Let the games begin