500grains,

Maybe after Gerard and I work out what actually is happening with my rifle & loads with his bullets. I only have about 50 left, and I am not sure how many of these might get used up if we have to do any further load testing to help Gerard sort out what is going on.

I am also contemplating another 375 H&H (lightweight, for elk, griz etc), and if it turns out the problem was twist rate, I might just make sure that the next rifle is compatible and give the HV's another chance.

Regardless of all that, you're first on the list if I have any left and decide I won't use them.

Cheers
Canuck

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Jagter,

Quote:

The answer is:NO - refer my previous post. The lower SD (.196) 130gr GS HV outperformed the much higher one namely 430gr. in a .416 calibre by far!

Answer:

Dream on brother !!!! A Rhino 430 grain bullet (416 Rigby) is far more devastating than a 130 grain GS-HV bullet in any .300 caliber at any velocity. You should advocate this to seasoned buffalo hunters. With comments like these you only portray your lack of practical experience with dangerous game. Were you drunk when you wrote such tripe? Hang on, I am going to give you a memorable opportunity.

I would really like you to come along and lecture this subject to us at the next Big Bore meeting, with a special invitation to all buffalo hunters. I am sure the boys would love to hear you out and I will arrange a huge camp fire for us to make it cozy. We will try to run an orderly meeting, but don't be surprised if the members break out in spontaneous hysterical laughter for punting buffalo hunts with 130 gr HV in .300 caliber based on modern ballistic thought and new rules to which we must open up.

The original Barnes Soft bullet that you saw in the picture killed very well on a soft specie like the kudu that it was used on - shot placement was low on the shoulder blade, through the brisket and the heart - fell in its tracks, but penetration was relatively shallow for a 400 grainer in a 404 Jeff. The draw back of the original Barnes Soft bullet is that its construction is way too soft for dangerous game, as its retention of weight is just too low (loss of momentum). Needless to tell you it is not appropriate for buffalo hunting. I sincerely hope you can see that a too weakly constructed bullet has nothing to do with SD.

In the mean time I will quietly enjoy the joke.



Chris Bekker

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Canuck,

In my very first article, as published I cautioned about the application of SD on its own (as its a ratio) to be used for crossed caliber comparisons as momentum values can differ widely, and I that one must use the same type of bullet (material &construction) and that the best value is to be derived if one stick to the same caliber when various bullet weights are compared - my whole experiment was based on this principle and that was why I stuck to one caliber (7 x 57 mm) and one bullet type (Barnes-X). From the beginning I touted the use of Mo/Xsa over SD alone so as to bring in expanded diameters. I also proved that we cannot just look at momentum as Gerard wanted to do in the beginning. (refer to my momentum analogy of the 10 pound round ball ( 70,000 grains) doing 7.3 fps giving a momentum of 73.3 lb.ft/sec vs the .300cal of 180 grains at 2,850 fps yielding the same momentum.)

Let me back-track somewhat and state what I have said before on AR. On Thursday, February 17, 2005 10:11 AM I wrote to Gustavo and Gerard:

"Gus and Gerard,

Gus, bullet construction is very important and it would be near impossible to assign values to them. In our discussion we used numbers to evaluate the main drivers of penetration and so we had to assume that all other variables stay constant for the sake of the debate. The durability of the bullet becomes an issue the moment its threshold strength is exceeded - its weight retention ratio, its rate of expansion. This determines the 'performance band' the bullet can operate within most effectively. Inherent in this are the materials it is made from and the thickness of jackets - gilding metal, tin or pure copper. Also the shape of the tip - some bullets do not expand at low velocities and are intended for extreme impact velocities (2,750 fps plus), like the Failsafe bullet. In contrast, Woodleigh bullets with ample lead exposure at the tip expand quickly and reliably at low velocity, but over-expand at high velocity. If the construction is weak (thin jackets, brittle lead and not bonded), like in conventional bullets, it cannot withstand the rigours of higher velocities of present day cartridges. Mono-metal bullets by design are much stronger. Yes formulas cannot trap all the imponderables.

The criticism that Gerard levels against Softs because they change their pristine SD in the terminal phase is really a one dimensional view as far as lesser penetration results from ever expanding mushrooms. Clearly this is related to bullet construction issues. However, bullet expansion is also a design criteria to increase the lethality of the bullet to make a bigger hole. We are essentially shooting bullets that expand because we want them to expand. Otherwise we should not shoot them at all, just like we do not wish to shoot rubber bullets that will bounce of an animal, whereas for crowd control it may be appropriate. So, SD changes during penetration is desirable and exactly what we expect from a hunting bullet. For extreme penetration requirements, nothing can beat a non-expanding mono-metal bullet. We have to recognize their are horses for courses.

Shooting a runaway buffalo from behind, through its huge grass-filled guts, and still expect to reach the heart with a large expanding Soft must surely be one of the dumbest things one can do. You still have a chance with a solid, but to gamble that the animal's hart is exactly in your line of fire in a gallop is yet another thing. Regularly we see and hear that buffalos run off with lung-shots administered with Solids. Some SA hunters shoot springbuck with varmint bullets at extreme velocities. When frowned upon, they tell you they go for lung-shots and it works for them. I have seen how conventional bullets mess up the frail bodies of springbuck - one cannot afford to loose meat on a small animal like that and mono-metals (Barnes-X, Impala and GS-HV) are arguably better matched if you want to put unspoiled venison on the table.

I do not buy in that high energy kills better. Even if they cause bigger craters on entry the theory is still suspect to me. These 'craters' or cavities are also very different for Softs vs Solids. Solids just zip through - I have never witnessed a crater. Softs that shatter, yes they create a mess and split up in multiple small and ineffective projectiles (lost momentum) and may not reach the vitals. Furthermore, the cell structure of animals is such that they do not react the same as when a can filled with water is shot, as they are compartmentalized at the micro level and are thus much more flexible than a homogenous fluid."

I have mentioned construction numerous times - in fact I published an article regarding its importance in our outdoor magazine (SA Hunter) a few months ago where I illustrated/showed real examples of bullet behaviour both out of wetpacks and game. Again on AR I wrote on the previous thread:

"I have also shown before (Friday, March 04, 2005 12:46 PM) that construction and design becomes another important parameter in the killing equation, but we should recognize that each bullet has different objectives and both have a place and a role ... in this post I contrasted 2 bullets with the same SD - the non deforming solid for extreme penetration on going away shots on buffalo versus a controlled expansion bullet that puts buffalo down much quicker due to the bigger hole through the vitals."

Then on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 8:10 AM I wrote on the Forum:

"In closing, I think every cartridge (small to big), based on its design criteria and pressure limitation has a 'best' combination between mass and velocity for its bore size. The dichotomy we have is that 'ballistic balance' is not always the same as what gives us terminally the best result, especially when we are not shooting mono-metals exclusively."

Then on Friday, April 08, 2005 8:36 PM I wrote on the Forum:

"What remains to be seen is if a 'light-for-caliber' bullet, that loses its nose section to form a flat-faced cylinder, does in fact produce a more effective wound channel than a heavier Barnes-X bullet that expands to double caliber that cuts with those very sharp star-like petals. Hopefully I will be doing these tests with 7-mm bullets this winter season - both in wetpacks and game."

On Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:39 AM I wrote the poem 'bla bla bla' when Gerard portrayed SD as utterly useless an irrelevant, when in fact it has some use if used in the right context ... RIP conceded it was a useful FOM and not without some value. If you want to see the detailed statement, just back-track it provides a nice summary. On April 19 I wrote ..."Let SD be a FOM, but they sure make us excited. If SD is a 'practical joke' as Gerard suggests, and he does not want to cut his bullets in halves, he can then graduate to the next level - make round balls for all calibers, that we can achieve 3 things - the lowest weight per caliber, the lowest SD value possible and the highest muzzle velocity, but dammit you are going to lose your trajectory, as we need a high SD with a good form factor added to achieve good BC's."

Dr Asby concluded that penetration is impaired at higher velocities in game and showed its occurrence in various calibers (.224; 30-06 & .375), that loss of petals above 2,700 fps is not desirable, in fact he emphasized that a good petal 'standout' cuts a more effective wound path and placed great importance on intact petals cutting a bigger hole through the vitals.

On Saturday, May 28, 2005 6:28 PM I wrote to Jeffeosso ... "You say ... "I choose to look at construction and sd" ... nice observation buddy. Pushing a bullet beyond its threshold strength for the sake of maximizing MOMENTUM is as silly to scratch one's ass when one's head itches. Extra velocity becomes self-destructive if bullet construction is not taken into account."

On June 11, I wrote to Alf ... "Keeping the petals intact on expanding Softs is therefore something that we should strive for and that comes with lower velocity so the bullet can stay within its threshold strength. As velocity goes up, "construction" becomes increasingly important. That is another reason why premium bond core bullets work so well when shot at the lower end of the velocity scale - they do expand evenly or reasonably evenly. None of my long-for-caliber bullets (Barnes-X and Rhino) have veered off thus far, I guess for the very reason you highlighted."

I also mentioned repeatedly on AR:

- Higher velocity causes over expansion, rip petals off, loss of mass and fragmentation.
- Higher velocity causes shallower penetration in animals. (Testimony by Dr Ashby)
- Low-SD bullets are destined to be for mono-metal bullets at high velocity.
- High-SD bullets work better in Soft configuration at modest velocities.

On the 26 th July I wrote: ... "Just before you think I have gone dilly .... SD is not everything nor absolute (it is a descriptive ratio), but it is useful in the context of Mo/Xsa, considering the present ballistic model. When softs are involved the construction and strength of materials also come into play and the combination of lower velocity and a higher SD will emerge as the superior choice to avoid undesirable weight loss and shattering. As illustrated with the lead ball versus the bullet we can see that shape also plays a role when we are more extreme."

You will have notice by now that I never use SD on its own ... always in conjunction with the other key performance parameters. There are many more quotations that I can make, but deem it as unnecessary by now.

When Jon A wrote to you the following: ... " You can always come up with a "simpler or more direct mechanism" by jumping to the final answer. What you cannot do is come up with a "simpler or more direct mechanism" which does not have SD as one of its fundamental building blocks. The foundation upon which any of your "mechanisms" is built contains a block called SD whether you acknowledge it or not. Pull it out and the whole thing falls down." I answered as follows on July 28 ... "Hey man, you seem to agree with me that the marula pip analogy ain't going down well. We can discard the inedible pip of the marula but we cannot discard a bullet's SD. SD will always be there. Even if we ban the word SD and we buy 180 grainers instead of 130 grainers in .308 caliber, then SD is still there implicitly. When someone asks for 180 grainers instead of lighter bullets (over the counter) they are actually showing their preference for higher SD bullets. SD albeit a ratio only, does form an inextricable part of the greater whole, as it contains mass and diameter in a disguised form.

Both SD and momentum on its own does not tell the full story, as I have explained before. We can never make one variable an absolute indicator. The sum of the parts add up to a greater picture to yield a synergistic effect when we consider the other elements of XSA, velocity, weight pretension, construction of the bullet (meaning we must not exceed the threshold strength of the bullet, which necessitates that velocity be curtailed.) Then we still have to recognize the experience of Dr Ashby that higher velocity (as shown with his Barnes-X experiment) will impair penetration in game (live flesh). Water becomes harder when you dive into it from a higher distance - say 300 meters versus 3 meters."

Then on Aug 6, I have to repeat the whole story again to Jagter ..." We cannot wish SD away as it traps mass and diameter in ratio form. SD is not absolute as I have explained many a time, just like momentum is not absolute, but when we combine mass, diameter, velocity and construction it adds up to a more comprehensive and holistic picture."

In closing then here is an interesting tidbit from Bob Faucett on the question of SD:

"Here's something that I noticed that I thought I would share. Using Federal factory ammo velocities as a basis of comparison:

.30-06 220 gr bullet
Muzzle Velocity: 2410 Sectional Density: .331

.416 Rigby 400 gr bullet
Muzzle Velocity: 2370 Sectional Density: .330

Very similar sectional densities at very similar muzzle velocities. That's why I think of my '06 loaded with 220's as my "big, little rifle". No, I'm not trying to say that the .30-06 matches the .416 Rigby for use on dangerous game. I'm just pointing out that the .30-06 with 220gr bullets has the same velocity and sectional density properties that work so well in the .416 Rigby. As N E 450 No2 said above, "Heavy weight, high SD and moderate velocity just plain works." ....BFaucett

My field results lead me to a heavier bullet that opens up nicely, with a high weight retention ratio, that retains its petals, rather than a light-for-caliber bullet that lose another 20% of its weight by shedding its petals, especially on the bigger game species. In opting for this I have a higher SD that flows through to more Mo over Xsa and the combination of modest velocity (rather than to maximize it) ensures that I stay within the threshold strength of my bullet - weight loss is minimised, intact petals that cut wide rather than close to the shank. This is my view as well as many others, including Dr Ashby.

Are my views like a falling Berlin wall or the rock of Gibraltar?

Chris Bekker
"NILS ILLEGITIMAE CARBORUNDUM"

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Gerard,

Quote:

You say "Just answer the questions.." What questions, all you have asked have been answered. Why do you falsely create the impression that I leave questions hanging. Feeling guilty about the way you continually do it yourself? I asked you in my previous post: "Let's see you list the questions I have not answered."

My previous post way back on July 31:

Here are 2 new Solids in the SA market. Danie Joubert and Jeense Visser's bullet on the left (called the 'Dzombo' Solid) and on the right we have a Rhino Solid. Do these bullets feature "pressure grooves" or "driving bands"? Pressure grooves and driving bands utilize different design principles, even though both attempt to lower peak pressure. In fact, they are very far from the same. In this regard I have a few questions then:

Questions:

1) Do these two bullets infringe on anyone's patent or even if we stretch it, can they infringe on a patent for driving bands such as those found on GS Custom bullets?

2) Is the new banded Barnes Solid bullets also infringing on someone's patent?

3) Is the Brigadier Solid, with its driving bands, also infringing on someone's patent?

4) Is Lutz Moller's HV design also infringing on Gerard's patent?

5) Was Gerard really the first person to use the driving band principle in bullet design?

6) If one bullet features more or less pressure grooves than another, could it be construed as a copy?

7) If one bullet features more or less driving bands than another, could it be construed as a copy?

8) Can a patent be registered if someone used a particular design in bullets before and you decided to patent it years later - will it stand up in court if challenged? Perhaps some lawyers can answer this for us.

I merely ask these questions to clarify these questions, as there seems to be a situation that some people claim to be the first with a particular design which they have patented and as such it cannot be used by any other bullet maker. What is the validity term of a valid patent right?

And the in a later post .... (9) "Just another leading question ... when you examine the width of the bands versus the driving bands (under your microscope) does it constitute a fundamental difference in manufacturing or is it a close copy as the Lutz Moller bullet? When the number of 'rings' differ would it make a material difference in design parameters?

Try not to make fun of these questions but answer them like a clever professor to a dumb student.

Chris Bekker

quote:

Originally posted by mehulkamdar:

8) Can a patent be registered if someone used a particular design in bullets before and you decided to patent it years later - will it stand up in court if challenged? Perhaps some lawyers can answer this for us.

This question is too general/simplified/self-serving to lead to a fair evaluation of this particular situation, and in any event the question should be directed to a South African patent lawyer since you are asking about a South African patent.

Chris,
You have called me many things before but why would you call me an elephant???

quote:

Gerard, You stubbornness to understand that I am not an associate of Rhino, and that I do not take instructions from them seems to be only surpassed by the thickness of your skull. In the elephant community I suspect a very thick skull bone would be considered an advantage.

And at last we have a picture of you!! You look like a mouse that is throwing up!!!


Regarding your questions. You need to catch a wake up.

1. Posted 01 August 2005 01:03 I could also care less about grooved bullets as they do not offer the advantages of drive bands and the two bullets above are obviously grooved bullets.
2. Posted 01 August 2005 01:03 A South African Patent is valid in SA and nowhere else. To which you replied: "We all know that a SA patent is only valid in South Africa". So it occurrs to me that you do not know that Barnes Bullets are made in A-me-ri-ca as you insist on asking the question again.
3. You got me here. What on earth is a Brigadier solid? If it is made in SA, we will have to have a look at them. Where can we see some? If they are not made in SA, see the answer in (2).
4. See the answer in (2).
5. Posted 02 August 2005 03:03 Anyone is free to request a copy of our patent and it will be clear that there is more to our HV and FN bullet than what meets the eye.
6. Posted 01 August 2005 01:03 I could also care less about grooved bullets as they do not offer the advantages of drive bands
7. See the answer in (5).
8. Not addressed to me. You said: "Perhaps some lawyers can answer this for us."
9. Posted 03 August 2005 00:19 You are becoming more confused by the minute. This drive band and groove thing is really getting to you, it seems. To which I now add: When you ask nonsense questions such as this (examine the width of the bands versus the driving bands) do you expect me to answer? I have said before that your concepts around drive bands and grooves are cloudy and this again confirms it.

So all your questions have been answered before, you were just too blinded by your rage / stupidity / loyalty towards your associate to see them.

Some gems from your posts:

quote:

that proves that momentum is the driver (driving force) and not SD. SD is only implicitly involved.

Momentum and XSA are the prime drivers in penetration dynamics.
SD is implicitly embodied in the above two factors, but it's not a prime driver.

My conclusion is that sectional density generally assists with deeper penetration, all else being equal.

It is then fair to say that a higher-SD bullet, in any given cartridge, will out perform a low-SD bullet

In wetpack tests Mo/Xsa has proven to give near perfect correlation with penetration depth. The real penetration indicator is Mo/Xsa

quote:

I do not buy in that high energy kills better

quote:

Shooting a runaway buffalo from behind, through its huge grass-filled guts, and still expect to reach the heart with a large expanding Soft must surely be one of the dumbest things one can do.

The 380 gr bullet mushrooms indeed to a large diameter of 24 to 25 mm.....

quote:

Against hard solid targets, such as armor or heavy bones, high impact velocity is the most important factor contributing to maximum penetration

Higher velocity causes shallower penetration in animals.

quote:

Where do we stand now? I am fucked if I know.

Canuck,
I told you that you should not be hasty, Chris had not agreed yet. Now, instead of giving us a simple combination of four Yes or No answers, we get 3,161 words and I am not quite sure whether he agrees or not. What do you think?

quote:

Posted 03 August 2005 23:30
RCG,
I have endured five years of sniping at GS Custom bullets from Chris Bekker and his buddies. These attacks have always been at the expense of GS Custom and to the advantage of another manufacturer in SA. I have proven the links between the people involved and the manufacturer. Clearly the manufacturer approves of this as they are not averse to mentioning competitors on their website. I have decided that enough is enough.

Sir: Your customers have endured your horrible service for the last 5 years. The product that you ship is not in question.
Making bullets is not rocket science. Anybody with a computerized lathe machine, 20-60 thousand dollars, and a government that allows commerce, can produce a product similar to yours (Do a search for Walterhog bullets, if you don't get it). You all(meaning small custom bullet makikng companies) supply a commodity, for a small market, and, your CUSTOMER SERVICE, PROMPT SHIPPING, and FAIR VALUE is about 100 times more important then the subtle nuances you discuss here. You don't make magic bullets, nor does anyone else. You could make magic bullets, but, if I pay for them, and you don't ship them for two years, they loose their magic. I've read all the excuses:
the SA postal officals steal the bullets. They are stolen as they are shipped, in other areas, the good tooth fairy stole them, they fell in a black hole, etc. Still, none of those excuses hold water, or kill game animals.

It's far too easy to get on the net, order 20 boxes of Weatherby 300 grain solids, in Norma Brass, in 375 H&H, for 25-30 bucks a box of 20, on somebodies special, then go through the constant annoyance of waiting for you to ship your mysto bullets, and have to reload them.

http://www.cpcartridge.com/

Conley provides custom loaded hunting ammunition at reasonable prices, and ships his product(i THINK-).

Saeed has killed probably near 100 cape buffalo using Barnes X bullets. The cape buffalo is unlikely to notice any subtle nuance between your mono bullets, and the Barnes, and, I can buy, and use the Barnes bullets, here, without the drama you so seem to enjoy.

Your alleged harm is a result of YOUR COMPANIES POOR SERVICE TO CUSTOMERS, PERIOD. Your failure to promptly produce, ship, and do all those little hard things, like making and shipping the product to the customer, are what has resulted in any reduction of business.

NO ONE here doubts the ability of your bullets, just, perhaps that you are a mythical black hole company, where the money goes in, and NOTHING comes out...

Perhaps you should try and get your product qualified as an endangered spieces, judging by the amount you actually produce.

Another thought might be to quit wasting time on the internet, take responsibility for your own business: make the product, ship it promptly, and take care of your customers.

Perhaps by taking such a course of action you could rebuild the business YOUR poor business practices have harmed. It would be a real JOY to see someone take responsibility for THEIR OWN ACTIONS, RATHER THEN BLAMING IT ON OTHERS.

In great part, the ire and hostility that you have in this forum is not from your bullets' ability, but from YOUR ability to run your BULLET BUSINESS. Perhaps it would be far better if you didn't make such a quality product. It's far worse to want the best, and not have it shipped, then order a mediocre product, and not have it delivered.

G

Chris,

Gerard has summed up your swindling techniques so perfectly well in the following:

quote:

You have worked your three step twisted logic again. You know how it goes: You make a statement based on an incorrect assumption, justify it with some twisted logic and then state your desired wrong conclusion.

Here again you are doing just that as expected, without any deviation from the old pattern:

quote:

Dream on brother !!!! A Rhino 430 grain bullet (416 Rigby) is far more devastating than a 130 grain GS-HV bullet in any .300 caliber at any velocity. You should advocate this to seasoned buffalo hunters. With comments like these you only portray your lack of practical experience with dangerous game. Were you drunk when you wrote such tripe? Hang on, I am going to give you a memorable opportunity.

Firstly, it was - according to you:

quote:

1) The bullet on the left is an original Barnes Soft - it lost most of its weight and it could not go through a kudu on a broadside shot.

You now say:

quote:

A Rhino 430 grain bullet (416 Rigby) is far more devastating than a 130 grain GS-HV bullet in any .300 caliber at any velocity.

You talked originally about a Barnes Soft (now suddenly a 400grainer in a 404 Jeff being originally compared with a 430gr out of a .416 Rigby - the total lack of info in that post allows you now to swindle around with it all freely as you wish!), not a Rhino bullet as you now pretend in the second quote of this post!
This is the part called "statement based on an incorrect assumption".

You then go on to "justify it with some twisted logic" like the following:

quote:

You should advocate this to seasoned buffalo hunters. With comments like these you only portray your lack of practical experience with dangerous game.

Dangerous game were never in the picture, we were talking about Kudu only, nothing else. If you can change a Kudu into a Buffalo so easily then I start wondering how many Buffaloes you have really seen in your entire life, not to mention hunting Buffalo, if ever any!

Now follows your famous third step, "and then state your desired wrong conclusion" as follows:

quote:

I would really like you to come along and lecture this subject to us at the next Big Bore meeting, with a special invitation to all buffalo hunters. I am sure the boys would love to hear you out and I will arrange a huge camp fire for us to make it cozy. We will try to run an orderly meeting, but don't be surprised if the members break out in spontaneous hysterical laughter for punting buffalo hunts with 130 gr HV in .300 caliber based on modern ballistic thought and new rules to which we must open up.

Where on earth do you get this part printed in bold italics from?

Again like so many times before on this forum, you have moused yourself into a much too little hole and if it wasn't for the fact that you are a gnawer - a specie in the rodent family - you would have been stuck forever after in that little hole!

I trust that people saying this thread is a laborious effort

quote:

to wade through all the childish banter

do understand and see why it is exactly that and by whom it is caused.

I agree 100% with Ray Atkinson when he says:

quote:

Take note that many bullet making companies are following his design as time goes on.

That includes your friend/boss at Rhino as well, just in case you haven't noticed it yet.

In time to come, you and all those alike, will have no choice other than to turn to "modern ballistic thought and new rules to which we must open up."

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Gerard,

I have not called you an elephant, you are twisting my words again like you always do. I only hinted that you have a thick skull as you refuse to belief what I have told you so many times, even after Rhino Bullets told you so themselves, both telephonically and in writing. I further hinted by way of comparison, which is fitting of the situation, that in the elephant kingdom a thick skull is a virtue - by implication I inferred that in humans it is not a virtue ..... your willful stubbornness, understand !!!

The answers that you have given is clear testimony that you do not really want to answer the questions. You simply do not want to discuss the subject of what infringement means and when one crosses the line. I am actually not surprised as I expected some silly answers - true to form! You just create more smoke every time, as you have probably realized by now that Rhino Bullets have not infringed your patent. Why not clarify the real issues or do you save it for your court case?

The Rhino bullet, as a hunting bullet, cannot be put down by your bashings from behind a desk - it remains the bullet of choice in SA for professional hunters. Your dim attempt at besmirchment of the fine Rhino line of bullets simply falls on deaf ears for the most part, as it remains the best selling bullet in South Africa - you can phone all the gun shops as you have the habit of doing - please do some research to ascertain the facts. Also don't forget to phone Doctari and tell him his view of the Rhino bullet is a misguided one and that he should change to your new rules.

Your slanderous comments against Kobus van der Westhuizen is also uncalled for. For the record, he is not a drinker and not person to make a quick buck out of people like a fraudster as you tarnished him. Character attacks like these cannot stand and falsely accusing Kobus like this will get you nowhere. I need to hold your feet to the fire for this. I do not mind doing it though as I have enjoyed excellent and reliable service from both the owner and his bullets, that I have used for the last 5 years. You really ought to stand back and take an unbiased look at what you have posted. It is despicable.

This thread was actually about the performance of the Rhino bullet as a hunting bullet, in particular about its application on buffalo, given the fact that the 380 gr Rhino bullet is a heavy-for-caliber bullet (High SD). Doctari stated categorically that in his opinion it is the best buffalo bullet in a 375 H&H. But you continually change the subject and veer off to the point where you bring in possible patent infringements and launch dirty personal attacks on the character of another bullet maker.



Gerard if you are not sure about my opinions please read the posting again, slowly and with full attention. Your out of context quotations serve no purpose, but if you need a personal discussion (which I prefer), I can take you step by step through it, all you need to do is to phone me and make an appointment. If you behave in a contemptuous manner, just be careful that I don't run out of patience with you mate. You can call me stupid that is fine, but your attitude and behaviour stinks and that will earn you a hiding if you are not careful with your big mouth.

Chris Bekker

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Jagter,

Now that you have seen your ass squarely with your incorrect assumptions and conclusions you try to blame it on me. Could you not see the difference between the Barnes Soft and the Rhino despite me telling you so? Are you too stupid or stubborn to see the difference resulting from a weak construction and the role of sectional density even after I explained it to you. Step up or step back and admit that you were on the wrong track.

Nothing was confusing ... only your ignorance that you are trying to hide by trying to cast doubt about incomplete information. The posting said clearly the Barnes Soft was retrieved from a kudu and the 2 Rhino bullets from buffalo. There is no swindling chom - everything is on the table - you apparent confusion is real funny. Your one-track mind is the limiting factor - come talk to us as a GS-disciple if you really have the courage of your convictions and let us see if you argument will stood the test with the buffalo hunters - in particular the 380 grain Rhino bullet that you derated.

Please read my posting calmly again before you are flapping your mouth. Please write something sensible next time.

Chris Bekker

Posting for Chris Bekker:

500 Grains,

Quote:

This question is too general/simplified/self-serving to lead to a fair evaluation of this particular situation, and in any event the question should be directed to a South African patent lawyer since you are asking about a South African patent.

Response:

I think the question is actually very specific and simple (rather than general) and hopefully straight forward. I believe there is a universal principle involved in our patent law, so we are not so unique to the rest of the world. Gerard knows the answer, but he will not answer for reasons best known to himself.

SA invariably inherit the thinking process of those countries that pioneered the way. We are followers here in Africa rather than leaders. Both England and the USA were industrialized countries when most of us were still sitting in the bush on farms. SA emerged much later as an innovator of ideas and products that seek protection by way of patents.

I really do not see the question as self-serving as there is a principle involved that cuts both ways to all parties. There are surely lawyers on AR that can answer as well, and that is why I invited them to respond. In the final analysis GS Custom will need to know the facts if they threaten other bullet makers with court action. It may not be so easy ...

Best regards
Chris Bekker

Chris,

quote:

I have not called you an elephant

quote:

Your slanderous comments against Kobus van der Westhuizen is also uncalled for.

If you start something, you should be prepared to take what you dish out. What do you call his post accusing GSC of taking money and not delivering product and the rest of it?

quote:

Gerard if you are not sure about my opinions please read the posting gain

Not going to do that. I read all 3,161 words of it when it was posted the first time around in various threads. To tell the truth, I did not read the summary you made to Canuck at all. I must say you are improving your replies. This one was only 1,126 words.

quote:

your attitude and behaviour stinks and that will earn you a hiding if you are not careful with your big mouth.

Are you going to bring all your buddies and beat me up?

quote:

Gerard knows the answer, but he will not answer for reasons best known to himself.

You did not ask and unlike you, I have not been appointed General Manager of the Universe that answers all questions. As it now appears you want an answer from me, here it is: I do not know, you should consult an attorney about this.

quote:

There are surely lawyers on AR that can answer as well, and that is why I invited them to respond.

And when one does respond, you pick a fight with him!

quote:

In the final analysis GS Custom will need to know the facts if they threaten other bullet makers with court action.

Hey Jagter, check this out. He has now got the three step swindle condensed down to a single sentence. It seems that practise makes perfect.

quote:

originally posted by Gerard:
Canuck,
I told you that you should not be hasty, Chris had not agreed yet. Now, instead of giving us a simple combination of four Yes or No answers, we get 3,161 words and I am not quite sure whether he agrees or not. What do you think?

I am pretty sure we have agreement. The quote I posted, was a quote from Chris that you agreed to. We must agree, no?

It appears to me (although it is not crystal clear) that everyone agrees on the following:
1. SD on its own doesn't tell the whole story
2. Mo on its doesn't tell the whole story
3. that everything we need to know can be derived from: a) bullet construction, b) bullet mass, c) bullet diameter and d) impact velocity.

So it seems to me that you guys are for the most part all in agreement, except for one simple thing.....The fundamental difference of opinion is "what's better, a heavy for caliber bullet at moderate velocity or a moderate weight bullet at high velocity"?

I don't know if we will all EVER agree on that one. On average they both seem to work pretty well in the field, IMH experience.

Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by GS:

quote:

Posted 03 August 2005 23:30
RCG,
I have endured five years of sniping at GS Custom bullets from Chris Bekker and his buddies. These attacks have always been at the expense of GS Custom and to the advantage of another manufacturer in SA. I have proven the links between the people involved and the manufacturer. Clearly the manufacturer approves of this as they are not averse to mentioning competitors on their website. I have decided that enough is enough.

Sir: Your customers have endured your horrible service for the last 5 years. The product that you ship is not in question.
Making bullets is not rocket science. Anybody with a computerized lathe machine, 20-60 thousand dollars, and a government that allows commerce, can produce a product similar to yours (Do a search for Walterhog bullets, if you don't get it). You all(meaning small custom bullet makikng companies) supply a commodity, for a small market, and, your CUSTOMER SERVICE, PROMPT SHIPPING, and FAIR VALUE is about 100 times more important then the subtle nuances you discuss here. You don't make magic bullets, nor does anyone else. You could make magic bullets, but, if I pay for them, and you don't ship them for two years, they loose their magic. I've read all the excuses:
the SA postal officals steal the bullets. They are stolen as they are shipped, in other areas, the good tooth fairy stole them, they fell in a black hole, etc. Still, none of those excuses hold water, or kill game animals.

It's far too easy to get on the net, order 20 boxes of Weatherby 300 grain solids, in Norma Brass, in 375 H&H, for 25-30 bucks a box of 20, on somebodies special, then go through the constant annoyance of waiting for you to ship your mysto bullets, and have to reload them.

http://www.cpcartridge.com/

Conley provides custom loaded hunting ammunition at reasonable prices, and ships his product(i THINK-).

Saeed has killed probably near 100 cape buffalo using Barnes X bullets. The cape buffalo is unlikely to notice any subtle nuance between your mono bullets, and the Barnes, and, I can buy, and use the Barnes bullets, here, without the drama you so seem to enjoy.

Your alleged harm is a result of YOUR COMPANIES POOR SERVICE TO CUSTOMERS, PERIOD. Your failure to promptly produce, ship, and do all those little hard things, like making and shipping the product to the customer, are what has resulted in any reduction of business.

NO ONE here doubts the ability of your bullets, just, perhaps that you are a mythical black hole company, where the money goes in, and NOTHING comes out...

Perhaps you should try and get your product qualified as an endangered spieces, judging by the amount you actually produce.

Another thought might be to quit wasting time on the internet, take responsibility for your own business: make the product, ship it promptly, and take care of your customers.

Perhaps by taking such a course of action you could rebuild the business YOUR poor business practices have harmed. It would be a real JOY to see someone take responsibility for THEIR OWN ACTIONS, RATHER THEN BLAMING IT ON OTHERS.

In great part, the ire and hostility that you have in this forum is not from your bullets' ability, but from YOUR ability to run your BULLET BUSINESS. Perhaps it would be far better if you didn't make such a quality product. It's far worse to want the best, and not have it shipped, then order a mediocre product, and not have it delivered.

G

This is your 2nd post on AR. In your first you said you were new here. Doesn't quite seem that way to me when I read this post.

I am not sticking up for Gerard here...just wondering who you are?

Cheers,
Canuck

HMMM.
Where are Impala bullets in this argument? How about a 375 H&H 200 grain bullet, super hard, going at 2800 fps, that doesn't deform, and punches a very large hole through it's target?



http://www.impalabullets.co.za/458%20win%20300%20gr.htm


G

Chris,

Your uncontrolled 'limp', sometimes the predicted three steps then suddenly skilfully missing two steps, stumblinhg ahead one step at a time, mousing around in the hope to pick up a new sent to through back at your opponents, is a serious physical illness demonstrated clearly to the world in your way of debating in this thread.
However, in your case it is not caused by a physical disability, but rather psychosomatic and thus caused by the mental stress and fear you simply can't overcome by just thinking of the idea to crossover the fictitious Berlin wall in your mind.

You are simply not able to admit and accept that a 130gr GS Custom HV bullet in a .308 calibre has outperformed a Barnes Soft 400gr bullet out of a .404 Jeff - if that is still what it is in your twisted mind!
The fact that this little bullet has a SD ratio of only .196 (much lower than the 400gr Barnes Soft) is really upsetting your psychosis - a type of serious mental disorder which causes the victim to lose touch with reality.

And that is exactly what you are displaying in your posts dated 6 and 8 August 2005 where you miraculously with the click of your mouse button change a Kudu into a Buffalo and then try to imply that I am punting Buffalo hunts with a .308 calibre 130gr GS Custom HV bullet.

On top of that it is still funny how small minds repeatedly turns to bad behaviour when painted into a corner by their own doing.

Finally, you are giving big bores a bad odour with the resultant lack of respect you are earning for yourself with your inconsistent views in your posts.

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Jagter,

Only a lunatic can debate electronically as to which bullet did more or less damage, kill quicker or slower, given the myriad of other imponderables, including distance, shot-placement, angle of attack, etc. You seem to have this supernatural (psychic) ability. I will not even attempt to lay out conditions of controlled experimentation to you, as you have already declared your blind following for the HV bullet, so it would be a moot exercise. Jumping to conclusions like you did exposes your framework for analysis, and then on top you have the audacity to say I have a serious mental disorder. In fact I think your thought processes are disorderly !!!!

What is worse is the fact that you mix concepts (SD and construction) and draw incorrect conclusions. I have already stated the essence of the argument to you, which you ignored, as it will expose your demented logic ...

"The question is whether or not in any given bullet the higher SD bullet will outperform the lower SD Bullet. Since you picked the 130 gr .308 bullet (Sd=.196) let me say I have 220 grain (SD=.331) A-Square Solids that have been used on buffalo culling many a time (in 30-06 and 300 H&H configuration) by Parks Board rangers ... tell me which bullet will yield the best penetration supposing we cut the same bullet down to a shorter length? Do it with any bullet as long as the material and construction is the same."

When you say I am giving the BB Assoc a bad odour, it reminds me that you threw this kind of crap at Mauritz Coetzee as well, to which he replied that you are walking around like an over-fed sheep farting wherever you go. Forget your name-calling strategy to further your course, pitch up so we can meet you. You can play a groundbreaking role in changing the future course of ballistic thinking in circles where it matters ... but we need your presence ... not a ghost voice. Please note that I have no hold over what other buffalo hunters believe or don't ... so you can come in fresh and break the ground.

I clearly mentioned that the two 430 gr Rhino bullets came out of buffalo - these bullets performed as expected with deadly effect. Katte Katzke has proven this particular bullet over and over in his 416 Rigby. This is what he is using to backup his American clients and when the safety of one and all is on the line. Rhino is the only company in the world that makes a 430 grainer in .416 caliber. The picture of the Barnes Soft was a 400gr/.423" bullet and it came out of a kudu - it killed effectively but its weight retention ratio does not make it a suitable buffalo bullet and that was why I contrasted the difference. All but the dumbest can see it is a matter of construction and not SD.

Chris Bekker

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Gerard,

Quote ... GS :

"Your alleged harm is a result of YOUR COMPANIES POOR SERVICE TO CUSTOMERS, PERIOD. Your failure to promptly produce, ship, and do all those little hard things, like making and shipping the product to the customer, are what has resulted in any reduction of business. NO ONE here doubts the ability of your bullets, just, perhaps that you are a mythical black hole company, where the money goes in, and NOTHING comes out..."

Response:

I really do not want to comment on this any further, but me and Pieter Olivier experienced the very same thing just over a year ago when all sorts of excuses were made as to the delay of your bullets (270gr/.366 FN), which we sourced through a contact in Vereniging that hinted that he could get it quicker for us. I guess we were lucky not to wait 2 years. If you insist I can phone Pieter and ask him to list all the excuses for us and we will number them from 1 to 5 for ease of assimilation.

You said Kobus accused you of taking money upfront ... that is a fact; not an accusation, not so? Here is what you said ... "What do you call his post accusing GSC of taking money and not delivering product and the rest of it?" Are you trying to perform acrobatics by somersaulting away from it?

Taking money up front and then deliver 2 seasons later is surely a recipe to get people's backs up. Many people reported this including GS ... are they all lying Granted? Luckily you have stopped this practice now after it became such a problem for you to deliver promptly. Selling bullets is like buying chocolates - you want it now.

I agree with GS that you are making a fine product Gerard, but I don't think we will get on personality wise - not even in the life hereafter.

Chris Bekker

Only a lunatic like yourself, Chris, can come up with this:

quote:

And that is exactly what you are displaying in your posts dated 6 and 8 August 2005 where you miraculously with the click of your mouse button change a Kudu into a Buffalo and then try to imply that I am punting Buffalo hunts with a .308 calibre 130gr GS Custom HV bullet.

As I have said before:
On top of that it is still funny how small minds repeatedly turns to bad behaviour when painted into a corner by their own doing.

Finally, you are giving big bores a bad odour with the resultant lack of respect you are earning for yourself with your inconsistent views in your posts.

Now you are changing 'big bores' i.e. this forum, into the following:

quote:

When you say I am giving the BB Assoc a bad odour ....

You see, it is

quote:

the resultant lack of respect you are earning for yourself with your inconsistent views in your posts.

Guys:

Are you sure this is Gerard? Could he have a son or a daughter, like 10-14 years old, with computer access, yanking everybodies chains?


G

Chris,
Good impovement, only 854 words this time but there you go with the three step swindle again. Kobus stated: "we keep on hearing that you take people’s moneys but do not deliver your bullets as promised." We changed our payment system to pay upon shipping more than four years ago so he could not have kept on hearing and that makes his statement malicious.

He also alleged that FN bullets in particular give feeding problems where that is not true. That is also malicious.

So it appears that the best you guys can do is to spread malicious rumour. If the only complaint you can come up with about GS bullets is the production waiting list, that is pretty thin. Every order we have recieved in the last more than four years was informed that we have a backlog. Some guys cancelled when we gave that information, some said it is ok and that we should ship when ready and some doubled or tripled their order. I have asked before but here it is again: Why is it ok for Berger, Bitterroot, Groove, Bridger and others to have a waiting list but not GSC?

At any rate, the backlog is slowly being fixed. It is getting shorter and shorter and soon it will be gone. Then what are you going to invent to criticise?

Some facts remain clear: No matter how much pressure customers put on GSC, substandard bullets never left the factory. We have not discontinued a single bullet due to finding out it was not ready for the market in the first place. When we launch a product, it is sorted and good for the purpose we state. Show me a bullet manufacturer that will hold product to the tolerances we do, batch after batch and year after year.

I said in a post above: "You got me here. What on earth is a Brigadier solid?" So please enlighten me, I am willing to hear about new stuff.

I also asked: "When you ask nonsense questions such as this (examine the width of the bands versus the driving bands) do you expect me to answer?" Pray tell, how should I examine and compare bands with driving bands?

quote:

If you are saying you see no difference between the shanks of these four bullets, I know a guy who sells white canes real cheap.

So, can you see the differences or not?

quote:

Chris says:
Only a lunatic can debate electronically as to which bullet did more or less damage, kill quicker or slower, given the myriad of other imponderables, including distance, shot-placement, angle of attack, etc.

You can do this all the time and when someone else joins in, you call him insane? Your double standards are becoming as transparent as your three step swindle.

I think he meant Bridger bullets. This company was started in the US, but, due to some stupid US laws about solid bullets, they had problems getting to market.

BRIDGER BULLETS

Other then your 'friends' in this thread, hardly anyone who has used your bullets questions how well they work.

Again it's just getting the things that's the problem...

G

Chris,

quote:

Chris Bekker says:
me and Pieter Olivier experienced the very same thing just over a year ago when all sorts of excuses were made as to the delay of your bullets (270gr/.366 FN), which we sourced through a contact in Vereniging that hinted that he could get it quicker for us.

I checked GSC invoices and email since the middle of 2003. Neither you nor Pieter Olivier has placed an order with GSC. Pieter asked for free bullets for a test and, when we heard that you were involved and were going to do the writing of the article, we declined. This was in November 2003 and two emails from him were involved.

Gina's email to Pieter dated 26 November 2003 included:
"Ons sal met graagte koeëls borg vir enige projek van die herlaaivereniging maar, indien Mnr. Bekker enigsins by so 'n projek betrokke is, vra ons met respek dat geen publikasie gemaak word nie. Ons voorsien produkte teen 'n waglys van etlike maande en sal dit waardeer as julle dit wat benodig word, ruim vooruit sal aanvra."

Translation: "We will gladly sponsor bullets for any project done by the Reloading Association, however, if Mr. Bekker is involved with such a project, we respectfully request that no publication be made. We currently supply bullets on a several month backlog and will appreciate it if you would let us have your requirements well in advance."

After November 2003, none of the 9.3 FN bullet orders we shipped within SA, were shipped to any address in Vereniging. As for getting bullets "quicker", we work on first order first served.

This is similar to when you stated that GS Custom bullets are more expensive than your favourite brand and you published a comparative list that showed us to be more than half again as expensive. On investigation, it turned out you used an old (lower) price list from them, without shipping included, where our prices were current and with tax and shipping included. When I revealed the true situation, showing that prices were very similar, you conveniently declined to reply.

This is deliberate deceit on your part and a premeditated effort to damage GSC.

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Gerard,

Quote:

You said ... "Thank you (Rhino Bullets) for posting a picture of your new solid (which is not illustrated anywhere on your website). I will forward it to our attorneys to see if it infringes our SA Patent."

Question:

What is the verdict, since you elected that you do not know the answers to my questions?
Is your Lawyer going to determine the potential infringement from a picture - are you serious?
Let us get clarity !!!

Chris Bekker

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Jagter,

I think the only odour that you smell comes from your sweaty armpits due to the stress from your compulsive obsessive behaviour to be a psychologist to practice all those words that you are looking up in the dictionary that you throw at me. All these daggers that you throw at me are missing the mark and does nothing to further the ballistic knowledge of anyone at AR. Get something more constructive to do, as I really do not want to waste any more time on you. Enroll at a university to become a psychologist you might then learn to use the words correctly so it does not reveal your novice understanding so blatantly. I think at this point in time we have nothing more to say for each other. Don't project your bad behaviour on to me - you have already proven what a pig you are with Mauritz.

Chris Bekker

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Gerard,

Quote:

"At any rate, the backlog is slowly being fixed. It is getting shorter and shorter and soon it will be gone. Then what are you going to invent to criticise?"

Response:

It is not in my future plans to order bullets from you.
So I do not have to depend on promises of having bullets before the season opens.
I am not a user of your bullets, save for the 270 gr FN bullets that I still have to test.

I have no need or desire to criticize your bullet - you can sleep peaceful.
Other people can write about your bullets - good or bad.
Just deal with Canuck's experience for the moment.

I reserve the right to differ with you on what I regard as the more effective & appropriate bullet.
I do take issue with you with your smokescreens and cheating swindling tactics though.
You have again proven with Jeffeosso & Kobus that you make use of character attacks.

I do not wish to answer questions on behalf of Rhino Bullets - phone him or write to him.
I repeat I am independent and do not represent Rhino Bullets at all - I am simply a user.
I hope this is clear to you.

Chris Bekker

Chris, you have been asking for this character analysis since April this year.

Now that you have to face it and see yourself clearly for what you really are, like in your own mirror, you don't like it and can't take it either.
Like Gerard said in an earlier post of his:

quote:

If you start something, you should be prepared to take what you dish out.

BTW to analyse such a highly peculiar character one has to make use of a dictionary to convince oneself that such a creature has been described before.

All your daggers thrown at me missed the target all along and what's more, even after you were told about it each time, like in my previous post for instance re 'big bores' and you then understood willfully 'BB Asoc', you still kept trying - what a dumb attitude!

I have been to university already and my post graduate qualifications are highly regarded in my field. Só, don't break your already confused mind about that - you wouldn't understand a word of it.

As I have said before:

quote:

Chris, I think you are wasting my time as well as everybody else's time with your answers on this forum. You're beating around the bush simply because you are too narrow-minded to admit that you have been knocked out several times in this thread with your stubborn and outdated SD ideas - irrespective of proof to the contrary.

Good riddance of bad rubbish!

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Jagter,

I don't care a shit for your qualifications - what you need to get your mind around is the argument which I have stated before:

"The question is whether or not in any given bullet the higher SD bullet will outperform the lower SD Bullet. Since you picked the 130 gr .308 bullet (Sd=.196) let me say I have 220 grain (SD=.331) A-Square Solids that have been used on buffalo culling many a time (in 30-06 and 300 H&H configuration) by Parks Board rangers ... tell me which bullet will yield the best penetration supposing we cut the same bullet down to a shorter length? Do it with any bullet as long as the material and construction is the same."

I return your compliment to you ... "Good riddance of bad rubbish! ... you spineless pig that would not come to face me or Mauritz.

Chris Bekker

Posting for Chris Bekker:

Gerard,

Why are you continually creating smoke to deceive the readers ... here you have just demonstrated again how you attempt to cheat. I don't care what your records say - I have told you we have ordered through one of your regular users that are apparently close to you ... and he lives in the Vaal Triangle somewhere.

If I can photograph the bullets and post it will you believe or will you accuse me that I have stolen it somewhere? I mean anything as long as I have not bought it from you !!!! Would it help if I disclose his name? Would you deny that as well? ... Don't try this pathetic excuse with me. Do you want me to get Pieter Olivier online and give you chapter and verse in front of all the readers and list the excuses for you? If you seek this promotion, I will let you have it for free.

Pointing out that your bullets are more expensive than Rhino's is not malicious - it is a commercial fact. Do you want me to run another comparison - provide your local price delivered to me in JHB for the following and I will enter the Rhino price next to it even though they are heavier and trap more material cost - 120 gr 7 mm, 130 gr .308, 265 gr .375

Look again what GS wrote :

"Perhaps by taking such a course of action you could rebuild the business YOUR poor business practices have harmed. It would be a real JOY to see someone take responsibility for THEIR OWN ACTIONS, RATHER THEN BLAMING IT ON OTHERS"

"I've read all the excuses: the SA postal officials steal the bullets. They are stolen as they are shipped, in other areas, the good tooth fairy stole them, they fell in a black hole, etc."

The closest copy of your FN bullets must be Bridger?
The closest copy of your HV bullets must be Lutz Moller bullets?
Perhaps you should try an action against them?
Even if you just prevent them to export to SA

Chris Bekker

Chris,

quote:

I am independent and do not represent Rhino Bullets at all

Just before the above lie, regarding the patent issue, you say:

quote:

Let us get clarity !!!

Are you asking on behalf of Rhino.......as their representative.......why are you so concerned? If you are not associated with Rhino, I do not have to discuss this matter with you, yet you demand a reply as though you are entitled to it.

quote:

It is not in my future plans to order bullets from you.

You do have a serious comprehension problem. (Not attacking your character, just pointing out a fact.) Let me spell it out. The only criticism you can come up with is our backlog. When that is fixed, you will have to invent something else to criticise. Who said anything about buying bullets from GSC?

quote:

You have again proven with Jeffeosso & Kobus that you make use of character attacks.

And you do not? On this page alone you have uttered 7 personal insults, 7 character attacks and swore at other members 5 times. You also asked for an attorney to give his opinion and when he did, you picked a fight with him. You are running a monopoly on bad behaviour and you cannot see it.

quote:

you spineless pig that would not come to face me or Mauritz.

If you are so anxious to see people face to face, why should they come to you? Why do you not go and see them? Why do you invite people from outside the industry to address the BBA. Koos is not a self professed expert as you and Morrie claim to be. He is just an enthusiast questioning your flawed thinking. Why not invite someone who will flatten you in two seconds in open debate face to face. Chicken?

quote:

... and he lives in the Vaal Triangle somewhere.

Yesterday it was very specifically Vereniging. Did you make a mistake or were you lying? I do not care where you got the bullets from but you made the statement and I caught you in a lie.

quote:

Pointing out that your bullets are more expensive than Rhino's is not malicious

It is if you use an old price list from them and do not add tax or shipping and use our current price list which is inclusive of those items. Or are you going to say you made another mistake?

You accuse me of changing the subject, yet you do the same. You raise all the red herrings above to avoid answering the akward ones.

Why is it ok for Berger, Bitterroot, Groove, Bridger and others to have a waiting list but not GSC?

"You got me here. What on earth is a Brigadier solid?" So please enlighten me, I am willing to hear about new stuff.

I also asked: "When you ask nonsense questions such as this (examine the width of the bands versus the driving bands) do you expect me to answer?" Pray tell, how should I examine and compare bands with driving bands? Another mistake from you?


If you are saying you see no difference between the shanks of these four bullets, I know a guy who sells white canes real cheap.

So, can you see the differences or not?

You say: " I have told you we have ordered through one of your regular users that are apparently close to you ..." so you have not placed an order with us or paid us for anything. How can you say "me and Pieter Olivier experienced the very same thing just over a year ago when all sorts of excuses were made as to the delay of your bullets" when all you have is hearsay. Fact is, you negotiated with a third party and had no dealings directly with us so you are lying again.

Here are our prices for a selection of bullets, all include VAT and postage in SA .

.224 R343 pack of 100.
.22 Savage HiPower R358 pack of 100
25-06 R224 pack of 50
7mm R258 pack of 50
.308 R255 pack of 50
30-06 R269 pack of 50
8x57J R282 pack of 50
318 WR R289 pack of 50
.375 R309 pack of 50
.458 R436 pack of 50

Let us see your prices.

Gerard,
I am not in the least concerned or worried about your allegations of Rhino infringeing your patent. You do not want to answer the questions and no amount of you repeating the picture proves anything about infringement. It is not about differences in the various Rhino bullets – it is about where they possibly infringe your patent. You just create more smoke every time to obscure the essence of your accusation. You want your lawyer to look at a picture and start legal proceedings, hey? Go the route and let us see where you end up. My opinion … you are just creating smoke. Enough of this as this is a proven moot exercise.
You can bet that I will retaliate when any personal attacks are made against me – you must understand that I won’t backdown if someone is insulting me – I will return him the favour. Jagter himself is quick to to make unkind personal remarks. I guess that carries your approval? The point is that you are also quick to do the same thing, just like you did with Jeffeosso and Kobus van der Westhuizen. I rest my case, as anybody can see that in your previous postings. Calling Jeffeosso a troll and a host of other things. (You are so sweet Gerard)
Gerard just incase you don’t know, Vereniging is actually situated in the Vaal Triangle. No lying , it is just you that want to cast further doubt by creating some more smoke. Here is the e-mail I received from Pieter Olivier stating the story. Attie placed the order with your daughter Gina and he was going to get it for us quickly, and then the excuses started, which is very much in line with what GS stated before in his post. Just waiting to see now if you are going to try and label Pieter a liar as well. I am now positively convinced that I cannot trust a single word you utter. You will cheat or confuse rather than to admit that you were in the wrong. (famous tactic). Did you expect me to give the street address of the person or would it be OK if I now provide the telephone number of the person as stated by Pieter Olivier in his e-mail to me? Your pettiness has no boundry.
“More Chris,

Ek het telefonies met Gerhard gepraat oor die koeels wat ons wou gehaat het. Ek kan nie onthou dat ek ‘n e-mail vanaf hom gekry het nie. Ons het net telefonies gepraat en toe hy jou naam hoor toe swaai hy om en wou nie meer deelneem aan die 9.3 projek nie.

Daarnaas het ek met Attie gepraat in Vereniging – Sy nommer is 083 293 7934 of 082 653 0575. Hy sal miskien dit better onthou, ek verbeel my Attie het iets gepraat dat hulle verkeerde bedsending vir hom gestuur het die eerste keer. Die 2de keer was daar ‘n probleem met die poskantoor/posstuk wat net nooit opgedaag het nie, die 3de keer was daar iets wat deurmekaar geraak het met hulle orders en sy punte is na verkeerde adres gestuur of so iets.

Sterkte
Pieter Olivierâ€

The excuses listed by Pieter can be translated as follows:
• The wrong stuff was sent to him (famous one)
• Then it got lost in the post (famous one)
• Then it was sent to the wrong address due to a mix-up (famous one)
The forth time we got lucky - thank heavens we survived that.
Gerard were you drunk to ask me the following question repeatedly …. “Why is it ok for Berger, Bitterroot, Groove, Bridger and others to have a waiting list but not GSC?†I have no basis of answering your silly question as I do not take charge of their production planning and nor do I have controlled over your speculative satements – least of which is to guess how serious these backlogs might or might not be. Some more smoke – like the burning oilfields of Iraq !!! Gerard was this a nonsense question by you?
I will write to Rhino Bullets and request their prices and then I will publish it. I am on a hunt at the moment so that might only happen in a week’s time on my return. Please state your prices for HV bullets (bullet mass, price per box @ qty) – let us do it only for the most popular hunting calibers from .243 to .458). Are the prices that you have quoted the same as those through your agents listed on your website or gunshops that stock your bullets (for eg like the gunshop in Krugersdorp). From my personal point of view price differentials mean nothing to me as I will still buy the bullet of my choice. Price differentials on various consumer products are a fact on everday life.
Lastly, I think you are the biggest chicken that I know of. And if you are not a chicken then you should accept the invitation to address the members of the Big Bore Association with particular reference to the 380 gr Rhino bullet that were discused on the forum. You might recall that we have extended anumber of invitations to you as the BEST person in the UNIVERSE to address us.
Chris Bekker

Chris,

quote:

no amount of you repeating the picture proves anything about infringement.

You are right. It proves your lack of comprehension. The question I asked that is relevant to the picture is: "If you are saying you see no difference between the shanks of these four bullets, I know a guy who sells white canes real cheap. So, can you see the differences or not?" Nothing to do with infringement, just curious why you claim to see no difference between the four bullets.

quote:

You want your lawyer to look at a picture and start legal proceedings,

No, I am having them look at the pictures and then advise on whether we should proceed, if at all. They may want to see the product, not my call. You should stop trying the three step swindle, it is becoming boring pointing it out all the time.

quote:

Gerard just incase you don’t know, Vereniging is actually situated in the Vaal Triangle.

It is indeed in the Vaal Triangle. It is also in the RSA and on the African Continent. You made another mistake in a long line of errors and your cover up is a joke.

quote:

Attie placed the order with your daughter Gina and he was going to get it for us quickly,

Let me get this straight. You placed an order for our products with someone who said he can jump the que and get it quicker. (I have this bridge that is for sale......) When that did not happen and he started making excuses, you now say we made those excuses. (We could have told you it would not happen as we handle all orders on a first come first served basis.) So you lied. Now that we know who placed the order I could look it up. The order was for three different calibres and was sent out as soon as it was ready.

Your selective translation of the Afrikaans e-mail is another example of how you lie and deceive. How about translating the bit where Pieter says he does not remember the emails regarding the bullets you wanted. Here they are. Our replies, declining because of your involvment, were sent on the 25th and 26th. Note that this was in November 2003 and Attie only placed the order in February 2004, three months later. What happened to that 9.3 test? Did it ever get off the ground?

"Why is it ok for Berger, Bitterroot, Groove, Bridger and others to have a waiting list but not GSC?" Your apparent incomprehension of this question is laughable. Is that the best you can do?

quote:

Please state your prices for HV bullets

Why HV bullets? Rhino makes nothing that is comparable, you said so yourself. If you want to compare prices, you should compare prices for roughly similar products. The most comparable product we have to them is our HP range. The full HP Bullets price list is here. It is a retail price list and includes VAT and shipping within SA. Make sure the prices you publish in comparison are inclusive of these items and that you quote the retail prices a customer would normally pay. Try to be honest this time.

quote:

You might recall that we have extended anumber of invitations to you

And so you close with a lie. I have not received a single invitation from the Bog Bore Association to act as guest speaker.

Apart from the items above that you have been avoiding and lying about, here are the others:

"You got me here. What on earth is a Brigadier solid?" So please enlighten me, I am willing to hear about new stuff.

I also asked: "When you ask nonsense questions such as this (examine the width of the bands versus the driving bands) do you expect me to answer?" Pray tell, how should I examine and compare bands with driving bands? Another mistake from you?

On a different topic (changing the subject here), I believe the 100 year celebration of the 9.3 in Pretoria recently was a great success. As you were also there, tell us a bit about what happened, especially the bits involving shooting the grand old 9.3

.

Great PR for both, keeping their products in the forefront of everyone's minds.

How about a shuttle service for hunter's coming back, bringing bullets to the US?

G

Alf,

I agree. This thread should be yanked!

I am actually very interested in a 380 gr bullet in my 375 RUM. Did 350 gr Woodleigh, .380" or something, now I'd like to try 380's. It should really pound a big bear next year.

But I got distracted to the point that I quit reading this a long time ago.

Why?

Never enjoyed watching a couple girls in a catfight??



G
PS: At least you know why you should only by their bullets in S.A. They spend most of their time girling it up on the net....

Alf and ceg1963,
I would be happy to do this elsewhere and I have in fact taken my responses to Miscellaneous Items at one stage. Bekker did not take the hint and continues to start up threads in high profile forums wherein he spreads lies and errors regarding GSC. As long as he continues to do so, I have no option but to reply. What would be the point of me responding to him by email or with a PM? His lies and errors would remain public and my response would be private. You will note that I only respond, never instigate and stick to pointing out his errors. Even if this thread is canned, it will not be long before Bekker starts another and the process repeats.

As always, there remains the option for all to pass the thread by or read it. By now you should know what it is about. It beats me why this thing has attracted 4500 views as I am bored out of my skull with it.

Alf,

I will oblige your call that we stop this discussion as Gerard’s lying and cheating is just too horrendous. His flimsy and pathetic excuses, the way he always put another spin on things. 100 words to deceive and twist … smoke and more smoke. I will thus save myself the effort to further answer all Gerard’s petty little irrelevant questions that makes him think he can earn browny points with. Gerard is a master at swindling … but only amongst idiots. Funny thing is he will project his sly methods on to others and think thereby that he can come clean. This thread has done more harm than good to his image.

Interesting observation in closing – check the damage that the 380 gr rhino bullet caused to the heart of the buffalo on page 4 of this thread. Then go to page 5 and compare the tiny hole through the heart with a 540 gr 500 NE GS bullet (assume it is a FN bullet). I must admit that I am surprised that the hole is so small. Never mind that, it was good shot placement whoever administered the shot. This whole thing of wound channels created by FN’s versus controlled expansion bullets (like the Rhino) is sure to receive more attention as time goes by. Your observation in this regard has also been noted with interest on another thread.

Gerard we will publish the tests on your FN’s later, but for know the Gemsbok Pieter shot through the heart in the Keetmanshoop area ran back to Upington possibly looking for the road back to Port Elizabeth in search of the manufacturer of the bullet that hurt him. Pieter is not impressed, but in consultation I pointed out to Pieter that the heart was clipped and not in the centre – again a small hole – distance was about 220 paces. Finally the Gemsbok perspired to the relief of Pieter and he handed me his box of unused FN’s. I will test these bullet myself before I give you an opinion that can take us another 6 or 7 pages of your incoherent dribble.

I just wish to state on last time the real question that both Gerard and Jagter avoided to answer:

"The question is whether or not in any given bullet the higher SD bullet will outperform the lower SD Bullet. Since you picked the 130 gr .308 bullet (Sd=.196) let me say I have 220 grain (SD=.331) A-Square Solids that have been used on buffalo culling many a time (in 30-06 and 300 H&H configuration) by Parks Board rangers ... tell me which bullet will yield the best penetration supposing we cut the same bullet down to a shorter length? Do it with any bullet as long as the material and construction is the same."

Once the penny drops, then one can graduate to the following:

My field results lead me to a heavier bullet that opens up nicely, with a high weight retention ratio, that retains its petals, rather than a light-for-caliber bullet that lose another 20% of its weight by shedding its petals, especially on the bigger game species. In opting for this I have a higher SD that flows through to more Mo over Xsa and the combination of modest velocity (rather than to maximize it) ensures that I stay within the threshold strength of my bullet - weight loss is minimised, intact petals that cut wide rather than close to the shank. This is my view as well as many others, including Dr Ashby.

Let us not forget that Gerard started with the initiative to discredit me with …. “Another amazing article from Chris Bekker†Oh’ Alf Gerard also suffers from CML (convenient memory loss) … so herewith then an official and public invitation for Gerard to address the Big Bore Ass on buffalo hunting and the choice of bullets given the groundbreaking discoveries with his set of new rules.



Take care.
Chris Bekker

.

Gentlemen,

I renew my offer to buy the beer for everyone if this dispute can be resolved face to face through the traditional fisticuffs method.

On a more serious note...

Setting everything aside other than the products themselves, I have been delighted with each and every bullet that GS Custom has sent me. They have been phenomenally accurate and work splendidly on game. To date I have only used the FN solids on game, but this year I hope to use some HVs on game as well.

I have also used the Rhino bullets to a limited extent. The accuracy was fine for hunting purposes but not especially impressive (1.75-2 inch groups with solids, and 3/4 to 1.5 inch groups with softs). At a future date I hope to be able to provide a report of how Rhinos performed on game for me.

Until then, please wear proper protection before entering this thread.