I started hunting African game with a 458 Winchester, went to a 450 Ackley in which I have used, 450 Ackley, 458 Lott, 450 Watts and 458 Winchester ammo.

I tried a 460 Weatherby for a year and a 500 Jeffrey for a year. Of the bunch I prefer the 450 Ackley. It penetrates better than the Jeffrey, the 458 mono solids don't bend, and you can get lots in the magazine which you can't do with a 460 Weatherby or 500 Jeffrey and lions, elephants and buffalo come in bunches. Never had a pressure problem with the Ackley. Maybe the straight case is why.

I think the 450 Ackley is the best possble African big game cartridge but now that A-square no longer makes the ammo I'd get a 458 Lott.

PWS,

Cute photos. Thanks.

So one can make their own Ackley cases from 458WM brass if they use really short bullets??

Ted -- specialty ammo shops like Superior Ammo load for the Ackley. Did Lott and win mag ammo shoot accurately in your Ackley?

LOL Bill!

Ted,

The quest for the biggest, baddist (sp?), big bore in the Big Bore Forum is a religion all unto itself, but would agree that the compromise between horsepower and magazine capcity is really the advantage of the Lott or Ackley.

But reality or practicality seems to have no place here!

Dear whitworth,

I live in Germany in the off season and the only ammo I can now get is Hornady which has 458 lott. The American specialty ammmo shops cannot sell their ammo here without having it tested and approved which is expensive for them.

I have to pass a written test in German to reload ammo here and I cannot write German well enough. Buying Hornady Lott ammo is the solution for me.

The 450 Ackley and 450 Watts ammo hit to same point of impact. The Lott hit slightly lower but was OK to 100 yards. The 458 ammo hit about 6 inches low at 50 yards. I didn't like to use it and seldom did.

Dear Will,

I like magazine capacity. Three plus one is OK and the rifle is handy to carry but five plus one is ideal if it doesn't make the gun too fat.

The best way to keep the rifle slim is to go with a Lott or an Ackley. When the gun is too fat or too heavy to tame recoil its alot slower to use. I had real trouble getting the 460 Weatherby into action against wounded buffalo in thickets. They usually ran and I'd hit them in the butt. I have a little 458 and when I tried that in the same country I'd hit them in the chest.

I have owned a .450 Rigby two years. I shoot 550gr. Woodleigh solids and softs @ 2215fps. Accuracy is awsome and penetration should be more than good. I have only taken a Bison cow with it, to date. Pressure seems very moderate which is one of the things I like about the Rigby case.
Mark Stone

I'll be changing to the .450Rigby very soon, from the Lott, but just wanted to put a word in, for those that might think it will do more than some of the other cartridges listed in this thread. It's not designed to do so.
I suppose you could raise the pressure in it, but that's not how it was designed.
I'm going to keep mine with a 480gr. at 2350fps, and will mostly use Kynoch's.
If anything more than this is needed, or anything more from any of the cartridges listed in this thread, then the only way to go, is up, and increase to a .500-bore, as was mentioned here earlier. A buff will not know much difference in any of these, until you get to .500, or better even, .577 nitro.
They are all in the same class, as .450-bore magazine rifles-from the .458Win-mag-to the .460Weatherby; they will all do "almost" exactly the same, depending on how you get out of bed that particular morning.

PWS and Whitworth!

I have taken several elephant with 550gr Woodleigh solids from a Lott and one buff with the 550gr soft. The 550 gr solids at 2,150 give amazing penetration. Complete penetration on side brain shots and very deep penetration on body shots. I won't give my load data here as I think my pressures are very high to reach 2,150fps. When I dropped a couple of grains of powder to reduce pressure and got a velocity of 2,050 I noticed a definate drop off in penetration on elephants. Also it seemed that the whop when the bullets hit was no longer there. I may be wrong here but I definately feel that this is one place that an extra 100fps of velocity makes a differance. I only used one 550gr soft on game but it hit a qartering away running bull buff at around 125 yds just in front of the thigh, penetrated through the stomach, liver, back edge of right lung, center of left lung, through the shoulder blade and was found under the skin on the opposite shoulder from the entry. It weighed 412 grains nd retained 75% of it's original weight. That is penetration I would expect from a solid.

465h&H

465H@H,
hehe-I think I'll go now to Midway, and order me some of those 550gr. Woodleighs.
If they do real good in my Lott, I might decide not to re-chamber. Sure would save a few dollars.

Will,

When I reload those fireformed Winnie cases for my Ackley, to assure proper case neck tension, I use a 9 grain copper wafer and get just under 6000fps. I'm thinking about getting another barrel with a 1 in 8000 twist though I haven't shot any DG with it yet... .

Seriously though, in both the Lott chamber and the Ackley chamber, the Winnie's velocity was still surprisingly in the 2100fps range. I didn't group test them as it was just a try-and-see exercise and in my two rifles, it seems a viable backup plan in desperate circumstances.

.465H&H,

Gregor Woods also recommends going with the 550 Woodleighs and his accolades were the primary reason for trying them out. I don't doubt they offer a certain quality performance niche, especially for a conventional style bullet. But for my use, where I'm toting my .450 Mag primarily for deer to elk sized game, and as an appropriate companion in Kodiak country, I'd rather give up the bullet weight and bump up the speed. I'd thought long and hard about building a .375H&H but I'm of the mind that life really begins at 45!

To return to the original question however, I agree with Mrlexma that if there was only one choice, for practical reasons it would be the Lott (and that's my serious Africa DGR). But for craps and giggles, there's nothing wrong with the Ackley and it's just a little bit more in all ways (performance, price, peculiarity...)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul H:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GS:

The 450 Ackley (don't know if P.O. Ackley ever built any?) is the full length belted basic case 2.85" long blown out to produce a very small shoulder, and hence gains a few grains of powder capacity over the Lott.

You can rest assured P. O. made some as I have seen some over the years. In fact, a couple of months ago Cabela's had one he barrelled on a Mod 70.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
The 450 Ackley (don't know if P.O. Ackley ever built any?) is the full length belted basic case 2.85" long blown out to produce a very small shoulder, and hence gains a few grains of powder capacity over the Lott.

Parker at least describes making them in "handbook"

Hi
I've got something like 200 rounds of Weatherby 375 H&H ammunition, Norma brass, don't know who's softpoints, and a bunch of other 375 brass. If I blow that out, could I use it for 450 Ackley?

Where do you get new brass for the Ackley, and, dies? I noticed Huntington had an expander die for moving 375 H&H to Lott. Guess you could also use that, and then fireform it to Ackley?

Thanks

GS

GS -- I don't think the Lott cases are quite long enough. So, are you going to build an Ackley? I'm leaning that way although you really can't go wrong with the Lott.

Whitworth:
The case uses the belt to headspace, so, it doesn't really matter how long the case is. Guess I can have my own case, a fireformed Lott case, in the Ackley chamber;-)?

So the case is a bit short. Wonder if you can just load the bullets out a bit? Also, I'd really like to be able to use softpoints on everything, except elephant. If RobgunBuilder is right, and 2400 fps gets me sufficent penetration to use a softpoint on everything, except elephant, I would love to have that capability. At that velocity, and, with a 500 grain softpoint, the gun would be useable for EVERYTHING. One gun one world, but, with a softpoint.

I know I can shoot a .500 Nitro Express with 570 grain bullets, at 2025 fps. I DON"T know if I'm up to the additional recoil of 2400 fps 500 grain bullets. The .500 Nitro Express load I shot, recoils at the same level as a 500 grain bullet at 2150 fps, so I'm good with my rifle (CZ550), with a lower pressure load.

So, I'd like to chamber for a caliber that has the ability to go 500 grains, at 2400 fps, knowing, in a pinch, I'm fine with solids at 500 grains at 2150 fps, or higher.

I'm still pricing this out, but, I don't see any real downsides to the Ackley. Pacnor chambers, and barrels for it, and, the cost isn't huge. Provided dies aren't totally absurd, I don't see a down side. So, no factory ammo. Just lie coming into Africa, and say it's a 458 Lott, and, you can use .458 Lott, .458 Win mag in it as well.
Also, with a decent muzzle brake, it should be easy...

If you go to a .50, while a huge jump in power, everything else becomes much more expensive, and, doubling recoil is a bit much for me...


GS

GS -- guess you could load the bullet out a bit, but the whole point behind the Ackley is more case capacity over the Lott -- in this discussion.

.45 caliber 500 grain bullets have great sectional density (.341 I believe). They penetrate really well with enough velocity (with good bullet construction).

All things being equal, I don't see the Ackley kicking harder than the .500 NE. Have you shot a Lott? I'm still leaning towards the Ackley!

Whitworth
Haven't fired a Lott, but, my gunsmith has, and, has bad memories of one. Keeps trying to talk me into a 416 Remmington, or Rigby. Apparently the extra pressure the Lott uses to get 2300 fps really cracks. The .500 NE is more of a push, not a cracking snap sort of thing.

It might be a bit less expensive, but, I'd rather have the bigger bullet, and the 450 NE2 stopping specs. Schools out on the 2400 fps, with a 500 grain softpoint. That would certainly put the Ackley in a category capable of taking plains game...

I figure if you fire the Lott ammo in an ackley, it should be blown out to the Ackley case size, but, a bit short. Seat the bullet out a bit, and, you have a 2.80" Ackley case.

GS

quote:

Haven't fired a Lott, but, my gunsmith has, and, has bad memories of one. Keeps trying to talk me into a 416 Remmington, or Rigby. Apparently the extra pressure the Lott uses to get 2300 fps really cracks. The .500 NE is more of a push, not a cracking snap sort of thing.

GS, recoil tolerance is a subjective thing, everybody has their own limits. It would be "Best" if you shot a Lott, rather than take the word of someone else as "gospel" on how bad the recoil is. After all, some people think that a 7m/m Rem Mag is brutal to shoot. Stock design, fit, quality of recoil pad, and gun weight are all determing factors in felt recoil. I own and shoot my Lott quite a bit, no problems for me. I have shot two Merkels in 500NE, they are snappy too me, not just a bigger shove. Now I did find that the 577NE to be a much bigger shove with less recoil speed, and prefered shooting it to the 500NE.

The extra 100-125fps that is avalable in the Ackley over the Lott, WILL increase the ft lbs and speed of the recoil. In 10 lb rifles the Lott w/500gr @ 2275fps = 68 ft lbs & 21 fps. The Ackley w/500gr @ 2400fps = 80 ft lbs & 22 fps. So the "Piper" gets paid for any increase in speed, bullet weight, increased powder charge, lighter rifle, etc, etc.

quote:

Apparently the extra pressure the Lott uses to get 2300 fps really cracks.

Working pressure by it self not a factor in recoil.

Hog Killer

The lott certainly kicks at full house.. and the ackley quite a bit more..

I don't think anyone will dispute the lott has a well earned reputation for signifigant recoil.

As far as forming ackley brass, I would think Hornady's belted basic brass would be the easiest route to go.

Well, the die prices all of a sudden make 100 fps look REAL expensive, along with brass.
Midway has brass from A2 for the 450 Ackley, 43 bucks for 20.
Hornady has 100 cases for 127.00 for the Lott.
Dies for the Ackley are right around 252.00
Lott dies about 50.00. I guess I may have to settle for 2300 fps with a 500 grain soft point, not 2400.
GS

quote:

interboat: .450 Rigby.

The 450 Rigby, 450 Dakota, 460 Wby are all too long and fat for the Mark X. Yes, it could be done, I've seen Harry Selby's Rigby, but not advisable.

GS,

have you priced 450Ackley dies at CH4D yet?

Rich

If the 458 Lott isn't enough, then the 460 Weatherby makes sense.

There are darn few people that will say the 458 lott isn't powerful enough, and of those, most will say jump up to a 500 A2.

I know when I worked up loads in my 458 Lott, and extra 100 fps never crossed my mind
Though I will say having a slightly bigger case that you don't have to compress the loads so much wouldn't be a bad thing.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
There are darn few people that will say the 458 lott isn't powerful enough, and of those, most will say jump up to a 500 A2.

I agree, if you think you need more than the Lott, step up to the .510s

Hog Killer

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
GS,

have you priced 450Ackley dies at CH4D yet?

Rich

"CH4D"?????????????

GS

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
The ackley is about 100fps faster.

and about $400 more to build and feed

jeffe

and it will also shoot Lott ammo..imo the ackley is the better design...but I prefer the 404 Jeffe. ry

GS and Witworth- I.m in Las Vegas racing my Viper this week so have limited e-mail time. You will love the Ackley. The .458 win mag is good. The Lott is better and the Ackley is way better. Yes Pac-Nor will long chamber and set You up properly. Thats an excellent way to go.-Rob

I am not saying anything bad abouth either Lott nor Ackley, but if one are going through the hassel with a wildcat above the Lott, why not go to the .460 G&A? And why not use the RUM brass? Hey, thats Zeglins round! But the Ackley has a name, I'll give it that.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
GS and Witworth- I.m in Las Vegas racing my Viper this week so have limited e-mail time. You will love the Ackley. The .458 win mag is good. The Lott is better and the Ackley is way better. Yes Pac-Nor will long chamber and set You up properly. Thats an excellent way to go.-Rob

Rob:
Got any 450 Ackley dies you want to sell, or know where to get them? I've got 458 Winmag dies buried somewhere. Anyway to use those for the Ackley? Heard they worked for the Lott, so I bought em.

Thanks

GS

www,CH4Dtooland die.com IIRC

They stock all sorts of die sets and Dave there donates most of his $$$ to trips for DG in Africa, even built his own wildcat (well, sort-of) for Buffalo

Rich

AWESOME!! I KNOW WHO'S GETTING MY NEXT 300-400 DOLLARS FOR DIES!!!.
I currently need .475 Linebaugh and .510 linebaugh max dies.
Whats the best value on doing a barrel? Pac-nor looked good, but their longest Ackley barrel was 22"
. Any other ideas, or suggestions?

I just don't see a down side. I can buy cheaper Lott and Win mag ammo, and shoot it, and, I can find brass, as it comes up on special. 458 Lott brass seems to come around more often, so fireform that, and you end up with a slightly short 450 Ackley, but, who cares? Seat it out, and you still have the Ackley shape, and, case capacity. If I don't like the recoil, I have the mag capacity, plus, I can use the Ackley at way lower pressure to get 450 N2 ballistics, 2150 fps with 500 grain solids.

GS

GS,

did I mention (thanks Jeffe for the correction) that you are going to like doing business with Dave at CH4D?
Get him rolling on african hunting and you get an hour of personal experience-based data. Ask him about his 9.5x74 double, and get another half an hour. He is a .375 nut. A friend shows him some 9.3(.366")X74 (2.9"L) cartridge cases some years back. Dave is a .375 nut...he researches a bit and discovers that the germans took the 38-90WCF and necked it down to their favorite caliber the 9.3. Dave necks it back up, and has Searcy build him a double in the new/old cartridge. He gets a load worked up, Searcy regulates the barrels; and as Dave tells it he figures out that anybody with a dremel tool can make a 5 out of the 3 in 9.3 so the cases match the rifle markings
and off to Africa he goes. Kills buffalo, and everything else he wants to. Repeat...repeat...repeat.

Great story and great people to deal with.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
GS,

did I mention (thanks Jeffe for the correction) that you are going to like doing business with Dave at CH4D?
Get him rolling on african hunting and you get an hour of personal experience-based data. Ask him about his 9.5x74 double, and get another half an hour. He is a .375 nut. A friend shows him some 9.3(.366")X74 (2.9"L) cartridge cases some years back. Dave is a .375 nut...he researches a bit and discovers that the germans took the 38-90WCF and necked it down to their favorite caliber the 9.3. Dave necks it back up, and has Searcy build him a double in the new/old cartridge. He gets a load worked up, Searcy regulates the barrels; and as Dave tells it he figures out that anybody with a dremel tool can make a 5 out of the 3 in 9.3 so the cases match the rifle markings
and off to Africa he goes. Kills buffalo, and everything else he wants to. Repeat...repeat...repeat.

Great story and great people to deal with.

Rich

Rich
Funny you should mention that, but, Jack Huntington currently has a double 9.3 and 450 N2, and, he's planning to take both to Africa in
2008.

I will be looking forward to this. Now, I need a barrel...

GS

For what its worth I once by accident fired a couple of 416 Remington Magnum cartridges out of my 450 Ackley. The accuracy left alot to be desired but I ended up with perfectly formed 450 Ackley cases. The necks did not split.

Boy, I dunno Ted...I might buy ONE as an accident, but a couple? I think you were just taking the easy (but expensive) way out making Ackley cases.


Rich

quote:

e

Ted:
Anyway to use Win Mag 458 dies to load the ackley?

Like, no full length resizing?

GS

One other question for Ackley owners: When you load for 2300 fps, with a 500 grain bullet, do you actually have room left, or do you have to compress?

quote:

Originally posted by Ted Gorsline:
I started hunting African game with a 458 Winchester, went to a 450 Ackley in which I have used, 450 Ackley, 458 Lott, 450 Watts and 458 Winchester ammo.

I tried a 460 Weatherby for a year and a 500 Jeffrey for a year. Of the bunch I prefer the 450 Ackley. It penetrates better than the Jeffrey, the 458 mono solids don't bend, and you can get lots in the magazine which you can't do with a 460 Weatherby or 500 Jeffrey and lions, elephants and buffalo come in bunches. Never had a pressure problem with the Ackley. Maybe the straight case is why.

I think the 450 Ackley is the best possble African big game cartridge but now that A-square no longer makes the ammo I'd get a 458 Lott.

Ted: thanks. That sort of says it all for me.

So does 500 grain softs at 2400 fps.

GS

Dear Idaho,

I got suspicious that something was wrong when I couldn't hit at large cardboard box at 20 yards off a bench rest. Went through the usual list of possible screw ups - flinch? loose sights? loose action screws? etc. etc. and then I looked at the head stamp. Felt very silly. Still do.

Dear GS,

I have a friend who loaded some 450 Ackley for me (I cannot legally do it in Germany without writing an exam). I think he used 375 H&H straight brass cases. He said making the shoulder was difficult.

Maybe you could seat the 458 bullet in a fire formed 450 Ackley case using a 458 die? Not sure if the die is long enough? Likely would not work because of the small shoulders on Ackley case make it broader at the neck than 458 or 458 Lott. But I haven't tried it.