The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .450 Ackley vs. .458 LottGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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I'm debating building an Ackley on the .458 win mag Mark X I recently picked up. Is there any practical advantages of the Ackley over the Lott? The cool factor definitely lies with the Ackley. I realize that brass will be an issue, etc., but will it push heavier bullets (550 - 600 grain) to adequate velocities (2150 fps +)? What about 500 grain bullet velocities? It will be a cape buff gun mainly. I might add that I have owned Lotts and have shot them well, so I am not too concerned with recoil. Thanks in advance! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | ||
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The .458 Lott should be the one you choose. I have a 450 Barnes Supreme that came out prior to or in 1949, and Ackley copied that one.  Both my 450 BS and my 458 Lott loads are best at around 2250 fps with 500 grainers: 22" barrel for the 450 BS, 24" and 25" barrels for my two .458 Lotts. High pressures might get 500 grainers over 2300 fps with the Lott and over 2400 fps with the Ackley, both in 24" barrels. Not smart. Case heads will be separating too soon. The advantages of the plentiful headstamped brass outweigh all else: in favor of the .458 Lott Pick the barrel length you want and load the 500 grainers to 2150 to 2250 fps. Or use the 450-grain North Fork SP/CP/FP and Barnes TSX bullets at 2300 to 2400 fps. You won't give up anything in lethality there. | |||
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I had thought about building a 450 Ackley years ago. When the time came, I went with the Lott for two reasons. First, the smith already had the Lott reamer on hand, and a distant second, was the better price for brass and dies. Last reason was the ablity to shoot Winnie ammo in a pinch. No regrets going with the Lott, the little increase in velocity with the Ackley was not worth the hassle. Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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.450 Rigby. | |||
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I second the .450Rigby. I'm about to have my RSM Lott rechambered to it-(I think) p.s.-that's not knocking the Lott any at all, as it's wonderful. Favorite load of mine is the same as Mr. Lott described, and that 83gr. 4320-500 bullet(Woodleigh). No need in possible sticky extraction, with 84-85. Like he said-it's as good as it gets with that load(enough, but not too much). The reason for me thinking about the .450Rigby, is my own personal crazyness for classier cartridges, and does not mean that the Lott is any less of a killer on anything in that class. It is. "Faith in God and the Mauser" DRSS-MEMBER | |||
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The ackley is about 100fps faster. and about $400 more to build and feed jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Jefffe, do you think the slight shoulder on the Ackley feeds better, or the straight taper on the Lott? There is no wrong answer here, just preference. Rich | |||
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What is the OAL of the Rigby, and what is the case capacity? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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My Lott will feed NF FP just as easy as cycling the action over an empty mag. Does not get any easier than that. Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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Rich, Man, the ackly shoulder is "waafeer" thin... I doubt it .012, or .024 total. Feeding? Can't imagine it would make anymore difference than a woodleigh rn vs a hornady rn... cool round, but not enough to offset the cost whitworth, the 450 rigby is the 416rigby necked to .458.. or slightly less capacity than a 460 weatherby, but loaded to 2300fps opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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If more than the .458 Lott is desired in a "45," my order of preference: 1) .458 Lapua 2) 450 Dakota The 450 Dakota has a longer history, much more steeped in nostalgic tradition, than the "borned in 1995" 450 Rigby. | |||
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Don't get me wrong as I love the Lott, but I just thought I would do something a bit more interesting. If I would go with any of the larger .45s (I'm talking about the girth of the case), then I will lose lots of magazine capacity........maybe I should simply build a Lott and be done with it -- convince me otherwise! "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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say AMEN to building the lott TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I own a Lott, but I would be just as happy with a 450 Ackley if I were building one. The Lott lets you shoot a 458WM if you get somewhere and your Lott ammunition (circa 1970's wildcat) got lost. That option is one I have not heard mentioned here or elsewhere for several years. The true advantage of a Lott is no neck to worry about setting the dies up for. Personally, I think I would go for a 450/404jeffries the next time, aka 450 RUM. I believe somebody here is doing just that...? Rich | |||
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Whitworth, I had MRC build me an .450 because they have the reamer and I've already got a Lott. I'll second pretty much everything in this thread - the only reason to go with the .450 is the coolness factor of having something that ain't no run of the mill. I've fired Winnies in the Ackley chamber with no ill effects but I wouldn't do it as a matter of course. Works for the "get by in a pinch" factor so you can't count that as an advantage for the Lott. The difference in performance is academic, just a little more $$ to feed an Ackley is all. Idaho Sharpshooter, Is Fred Zeglin the man with the 450 RUM? My M1999 Ackley could use a little action work and why not take the coolness factor up a notch in the meantime?!?  | |||
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I actually own, shoot and have personally built 2 Lotts and 2 .450 ackleys. Personally I really like the .450 ackley. It,s different and really delivers the advertized 2400fps with a 500 gr bullet. The Lott won't do that. Frankly a well loaded .458 win mag with the bullet seated out .25 inches( you may need a throater) easily duplicates the lott! The last.450 ackley I built on a pre-64 Model 70 feeds like a dream. Upside down ,sideways even EMPTY CASES! The little shoulder looks cute but is basically useless. I will probably never build another Lott as the long throat .458 win mag basically gets that job done.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I would go with the Ackley as well. Mine was built on a Brno 602 with the stock barrel. It was a 458 Winchester and was re-chambered to the Ackley. With a little feed ramp work it will feed any kind of bullet and it does get 2400 fps using WW748 powder. The feed work required is minor and maybe even unnecessary. I just wanted it to feed flat nose bullets. Both the Ackley and the Lott will hold six under with the 602 action if my memory holds. Take care, Dave | |||
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Have any of you Ackley owners loaded heavier bullets? I believe that Woodleigh makes 550 grain .45 cal bullets. Does anyone make a premium 600 grain bullet?? Curious as to how much velocity can be achieved with heavy bullets at reasonable pressures. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Or, just run a lott reamer in a winmag chamber and load the winmag long, zero feeding probably jeffe opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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As I understand it, you can do the same with the 450 Ackley in a pinch too. Cheers, Canuck | |||
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You are correct, Canuck. I have the original Lott articles somewhere, and he made the point (several times)that the Lott design was drawn up specifically to allow for shooting 458WM accurately if you lost your Lott ammunition whilst hanging about the Gin Plantation in Nairobi. Anybody ever been there? I would expect these days one is as likely to find the Lott at shops in Africa as the win mag. I tried this in my first 458Lott from win mag conversion. Shot 458 over the chrono, rechambered, and shot five more 458WM over it and checked the group size and poi at 100 yds. Lost about 90fps IIRC, and the poi and size of group were unchanged. Sort-of a really long throated WM. Rich | |||
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I am a great believer in using the 550gr Woodleigh in the 458s. When using it in the Lott you run into the same problems as using the 500gr in the 458 Win, lack of case capacity. To get to 2,150 with that bullet in the Lott you have to push pressure limits, possibly to uncomfortable levels. The added case capacity of the Ackley or Watt caliber should make 2,150 to 2,200 with reasonable presures workable. I think if I were to do it again and felt I had a lot of elephant hunting left in me I would go with the Ackley instead of the Lott. 465H&H | |||
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I got the privilege(?) of shooting 465H&H's Lott a year ago (or so) and he was load testing these loads. He offered me the privilege of trying a few...it is the cause of my buying the CZ416 and the Whitworth 458WM. Thanks... Rich | |||
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FWIW- I am a believer in the 2400fps/500 gr bullet magic on dangerous game with softs! With solids 2200 fps with good bullets gives you all the penetration you ever need. This is the velocity I reccomend people load their .460 wby's down to. IMHO softs for dramatic effects( I like big/deep gaping wounds in things that might terminate me) require more velocity and honestly I've shot more DG (other than ele) game with softs than solids! With a properly placed soft bullet there is a visable effect that is much more dramatic than what you get with 500 gr bullets at 2100 fps. My experience is a .416 Rigby(410 gr at 2450 fps) is a big step up over a .375 H&H(300 gr at 2600 fps) and a .450 Ackley (500 gr at 2400fps) gives the same level of improvement over a .416 Rigby. I see the Lott as maybe( maybe not) a little better than a .416 Rigby. The game still runs off usually but its more like 10-fifty feet versus 200-300 yrds. They are definately dead on their feet and concentrating on expiring rather than figuring out how to cancel your ticket. Of course,if you shoot one in the hoof no amount of bullet weight or velocity is gonna matter. You can definately see the difference in impact with 500grs at 2400fps. I've actually used 600 gr bullets in my Ackley and can easily get 2100 fps with WW748 loads. I agree with 470 Mbogo usually 74-76 grs is the sweet spot! Id imagine 550's aught to see typical Lott velocities. I've even seen 2475 out of a 25 inch barreled ackley. By the way, the ackley neck and shoulder really make this cartridge shine with cast bullets. Shooting .458 wins out of the Acvkley works just fine too! Don't let the mass think about the Lott sway you. Ackley reamers are actually pretty readily available. Finally I strongly reccomend the pre-64 M70 to Ackley conversion. It truly stands tall in my book in the ease/great results category. Did I say I really like BELTED MAGNUMS, of course I'm biased as I actually own and shoot them.-Rob Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers to do incredibly stupid things- AH (1941)- Harry Reid (aka Smeagle) 2012 Nothing Up my sleeves but never without a plan and never ever without a surprise! | |||
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I'm leaning back towards the Ackley.......A friend with an Ackley told me that he has shot Lott ammo through his with no ill affects, so in the event of lost ammo, there are two options fairly readily available -- win mag and Lott. How difficult will the conversion be on my Mark X (.458 win mag) -- the magazine only measures 3.40-inches? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I owned both. Would never go the Ackely route again due to the cost of the reloading dies and the non avaliability of factory ammo. I doubt if you can get the Ackley into the 3.40 mag without suffering a velocity loss due to having to seat the bullets deeply. My biggest fear is when I die my wife will sell my guns for what I told her they cost. | |||
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No, it won't fit in the factory mag, it'll have to be replaced. The Ackley is a bit longer than the Lott. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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Here's a few loads with 550 grain Woodleigh softpoints in a .450Ackley. Velocity recorded out of a 22", 1-10 twist barrel. A2 Brs, 3.640" oal, CC250, loaded in C4HD dies for all loads 75gr H4895 - 2000fps 78gr H4895 - 2075 80gr H4895 - 2150 78gr IMR4064 - 2050 76gr RL15 - 1975 78gr RL15 - 2025 With "harder" brass, I might be able to turn it up a bit but I prefer a 450gr TSX @ 2400 for bear protection and the occasional deer or elk. | |||
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PWS -- thanks for the load data. Did you hunt with any of these loads? How did they perform? "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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I'm baffled. I thought the Ackley and the Lott the same, pretty much. To get 2400 fps with a 500 grain bullet, don't you have to use pretty exteme pressure in the Ackley? I also thought you could fire 458 winmag out of the Ackley, as well as Lott ammo. GS | |||
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GS: Apparently win mag and Lott ammo can be used in the Ackley. The case is a bit longer, hence more powder can be stuffed into it and it will consequently push a 500 grain bullet faster than the Lott can (2400 fps), also giving it the ability to push even heavier bullets to respectable velocities. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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NEVER figured out why Lott went with 2.80, instead of 2.85. Anyone have prices on 450 Ackley dies???? Thanks GS | |||
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Probably because it was a fireformed wildcat from the 375H&H. It shrank .050" when blown out to .458". Hog Killer IGNORE YOUR RIGHTS AND THEY'LL GO AWAY!!! ------------------------------------ We Band of Bubbas & STC Hunting Club, The Whomper Club | |||
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you can get your 450 ackley magnum dies from ch4d for $101.45 check out daves website for yourself & see the notes on the ackley www.ch4d.com TOMO577 DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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The 458 Lott is essentiall a stretched 458 win mag case 2.80" long vs 2.5" You may be thinking of the 450 Watts magnum, which actually predates the 458 win mag by a few years and is a full 2.85" long. The 450 Ackley (don't know if P.O. Ackley ever built any?) is the full length belted basic case 2.85" long blown out to produce a very small shoulder, and hence gains a few grains of powder capacity over the Lott. As to why the Lott was trimmed to 2.80", as previously mentioned it was so that when you blow out 375 H&H brass, which shortens, you can trim to an even length. When Jack Lott invented his improved chambering, belted basic brass was hard to come by. Today that isn't the case, and many folks have their lott chambers cut to allow the use of 2.85" brass. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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Or maybe Jack Lott just wanted it different so he could hang his name on it as the .450 Watts was already aout and using the longer case. | |||
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.458 Lott is more practical than the Ackley equivalent - for all real life and practical purposes - for many reasons: (1) brass availability; (2) SAAMI standardized status (I don't like wildcats without a distinct and direct and material benefit); and (3) reamer availability. Jacques - may he RIP - (and Hornady) did us all a very big favor with the development and standardization of the .458 Lott. If more power is wanted, preferred, desired or needed, then one must make the leap to the .500 class. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Never shot anything but the target butts testing those Woodleighs. The ones I recovered from the clay and rock bank gave me the impression that they are kinda soft but the cores were solidly bonded to the jackets. I decided against them because of the increased recoil and less ranging capacity. In all, with other excellent bullet choices out there, they seemed like a solution in search of a problem. They gave excellent accuracy however. The following cases are L to R 1. Lott fired in Lott chamber 2. Win Mag in Lott chamber 3. Win Mag in Ackley chamber 4. Lott in Ackley chamber 5. Ackley in Ackley chamber  | |||
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I'M LEARNING TO REALLY HATE ROBGUNBUILDER. EVERY TIME I'M HAPPY WITH CONVERTING MY 375 AND, MADE UP MY MIND, HE RAISES THE BAR. I WAS CONTENT WITH A 500 GRAIN SOLID, AT 2150FPS, OUT OF A 458 LOTT. NICE PRESSURE, DEADLY. NOW HE HAS TO TELL ME THAT THERE IS A BIG STEP UP, FROM THAT, TO 2400 FPS, AND A 500 GRAIN SOFT POINT. THE WORST PART, IS, I KNOW HE'S RIGHT. SO, PACNOR CUTS 450 ACKLEY CHAMBERS, IN 22 INCH BARRELS FOR A REASONABLE COST. SO I COULD GET THERE, IF I WANT A MAX PRESSURE, MAX RECOIL LOAD. THE ACKLEY RELOADING DIES, AND BRASS ARE A BIT EXPENSIVE, BUT, DOABLE.. ANY OTHER ALTERNATIVES TO ACHIEVE THE SAME RESULTS? 450 RIGBY, RECHAMBER FOR 460 WBY?? I'M CONVINCED HE'S RIGHT, OR, MOVE UP TO .510 WELLS, OR A2? ps THE RIFLE IS AT THE GUNSMITH, AND, THE 458 FIRST BARREL FELL THROUGH... GS | |||
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PWS -- again, great info and photos. Thanks. I am still no closer to making a decision even though I am still leaning towards the Ackley.....such a dilemma! Robgunbuilder -- I sent you a PM "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .450 Ackley vs. .458 Lott
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