quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Put a 416 Rigby and a 404 Jeffrey in you hand. Elegance vs. a camel

Which is which?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so there is no point in stating which is elegant and which is a camel. But as a hint, I am not enamored with the .425 WR either.

I am glad to see the 505 added to the list. It too is elegant in my eyes.
It may not have the widest bullet choices in .505" but what capacity and proportions!

In design I have leaned to the 505 over the Jeffery. But when push came to shove and I finally got my own 50, I whimped out and went with a 2.65" Rigby case. It fit in a little Ruger Hawkeye rifle, imagine that. And it does 7000 foot-pounds without breaking a sweat. I've even downloaded the 450gn GSC to 6750 foot-pounds (2600fps) as all that I want or need for African hunting.

For all of you that want to hunt with the Jeffery at factory levels, what the AccRel already does, go for it. There is no hate or dissing, it's your hunt. But I can't vote for the Jeffery in a big game cartridge beauty contest.

I guess for shooting "originals", I might go with the 416 Ruger at original specs.
Now to sip a nice Merlot from the other end of the rift valley and with the highest levels of resveratrol worldwide.

The 404 Jeffery and the 425 or 2 of the ugliest cartridges ever created.

Ugly ?

Hell no, this is stuff of legend !

A top grade WR in 425 WR with its protruding magazine and horn inset in front of the magazine and it's clips to deal with the odd shaped case must be one of the more desirable pieces from that era !



The 425 WR on the left is a original with it's patent Leslie Taylor capped 410gr bullet.
The 404 on the right is a "post Kynoch era" RWS with the typical RWS FMJ

The RWS was loaded way hotter than the old Kynoch offerings and my own experiences with the RWS solid was that is was a meat mincer. The RWS solid ogive very prone to tumbling.

Historic and effective, but no beauty contest winner. Those cases are ugly

There you have it:

quote:

Ugly ?

Hell no, this is stuff of legend !

and

quote:

Historic and effective, but no beauty contest winner. Those cases are ugly

Yes,

quote:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Alf, thank you for the pictures.

I'll add a couple

Look good, don't they!

Here is a case

I read all those articles and loved them..The real shocker was the statement wherein the shooter wanted to test the 500 at long range and shot a buffalo with a 500 at 55 yards and the bull ran 10 yards and expired..

Now that is a real jewel of wisdom, a 500 Jefferys will kill a buffalo at 55 yards..I need nap!

Hey...for any one interested, Lothar Walther has a 12.7 x 70 Schuler barrel for your M98...you can have a bit of historic nostalgia anyway...90% a 505 Gibbs anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
There you have it:

quote:

Ugly ?

Hell no, this is stuff of legend !

and

quote:

Historic and effective, but no beauty contest winner. Those cases are ugly

Yes,

quote:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Alf, thank you for the pictures.

I'll add a couple

Look good, don't they!

Here is a case

No! They don't look good. You've stuffed an ugly azz Barnes tipped bullet in them. Totally destroys the elegance of that beautiful case. Kinda like putting Spinner Rims on a Jaguar F Type

Home on the range, where the jackalopes howl at the moon ...



.416 Rigby spotted brass, 1911 vintage? And a 45-degree shoulder that is a speed bump to feeding, and prone to bulge and collapse on reloading ...
For polishing spots off the solitary display brass: 0000 steel wool and elbow grease.

With my .416 Rigby wildcats I prefer to change that shoulder to 20 degrees,
like on this .423/.416 Rigby Improved Plus, aka 404 RIP:





The 404 RIP turned out to be no improvement over the standard 404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express.
I need to re-barrel this to .500 Jeffery instead of the CZ.
I will try an inside-the-magazine-front-wall reinforcement,
sloping smoothly down below the start of the feed ramp,
hoping this will make it an FN feeder.
It holds almost 4 down in the box of .500 Jeffery!
It feeds roundnose and spitzer well as is.
The bolt face and extractor claw grip the .500 Jeffery case well,
despite being made for .416 Rigby.
Dakota makes good spring steel extactors.
The ejector is a Massive-Fixed one, a real MF-er.
The MPI stock I painted myself, as you can see,
and can be sanded smooth and redecorated.
This rifle was a .395 Tatanka when it went to Tanzania with the Saeed expedition in 2010.
It was accurate, but too heavy!
It will be lighter as a .500 Jeffery, with the bigger hole in the barrel.

A whole lot of bolt face catches a whole lot of rim on the .500 Jeffery with this one.
That reliability is worth having to work on the FN feeding.
No WR feed-rail clips will be required, not a chance.
And I have the Talley peep for the rear base,
ho-hum ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Hey...for any one interested, Lothar Walther has a 12.7 x 70 Schuler barrel for your M98...you can have a bit of historic nostalgia anyway...90% a 505 Gibbs anyway.

I'll check that out, thanks, for a .500 Jeffery, not a .500 Schuler Jumbo, apologies to Richard and Hans.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

With my .416 Rigby wildcats I prefer to change that shoulder to 20 degrees,
like on this .423/.416 Rigby Improved Plus, aka 404 RIP:

I agree that a 20* shoulder would have made the Rigby perfect.

quote:

.416 Rigby spotted brass, 1911 vintage? And a 45-degree shoulder that is a speed bump to feeding, and prone to bulge and collapse on reloading ...
For polishing spots off the solitary display brass: 0000 steel wool and elbow grease.

An old batch of Norma. I am away from contact at the moment and it was the only personal case picture in easy access.
Still you must admit that this is a pretty country filly even if not longer-busted.

PS:

quote:

The 404 RIP turned out to be no improvement over the standard 404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express.

Whatever your problem, it wasn't the case. That is a beautiful case design.
Misalligned barrel, action, feeding ramp, rails, underutilized powder capacity, insufficient testing ?, ?, ?

That case will do 60000psi and can generate 6000-6500ftpounds for various bullets, especially with Barnes cut bands or GSC driving bands, well beyond the 404's wasted neck-space and thinner shoulders.

From what I've read while I was contemplating my 50 cal wildcat and checking out cases...comparing the 500 Jeff and the Schuler is like comparing two kumquats, one slightly larger than the other and getting all picky about how much more fruit you get with the larger one. You can fire the
Schuler in the Jeffery chamber but not the other way around(or is it the other way round?) and the case volume, depending on which case brand your using, is twins and both loaded to almost the same pressures.

For some reason, probably lost in translation or data, the/a "bone of contention reigns supreme" between these two, and bias gets in the way of objective comparison.

If I wanted nostalgia with ALL the known deficiencies of BOTH cases I would certainly go with the Schuler, but leave getting up close and personal with an upset critter to a more modern and almost 100% CRF iteration...or at least with someone who can stand without loosing his water backing me up while I play "safari man" with the Schuler...nostalgia AND a bit of safety.

But I would MUCH rather have something on a modern "slick sided", large capacity case in 500-600 cal that won't leave me with egg on my face and hands full of jammed toast.

I always wanted a 505 Gibbs...but the closest I got to using the Gibbs case was when I did a 458 x 2" American using an Ishapore SMLE receiver. A shortened to 2.5" 505 G(with.510" bullet) at 3.05" COAL would feed in the 10 round 308 mag and would hold 5 down. With all measurements maxed out to fit the mag, the case capacity was ~140 gr H2O...~1950-2000 with a 570 gr RN was about all the SMLE receiver would safely stand. A whole lot of work and expense for what basically would be a pig gun...still a CRF tho'...the 458 A was much more reasonable. (Apologies for going a bit sideways).

Doing all these weird and wonderful things is what "Big Bores' and wildcatting is all about...KEEP ON, KEEPING ON.

Good Hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
... You can fire the
Schuler in the Jeffery chamber but not the other way around(or is it the other way round?) and the case volume, depending on which case brand your using, is twins and both loaded to almost the same pressures.

only difference is (maybe) shoulder angle -- and depending on the chamber, all, some, or none of any of the samples known may fit

Home on the range, howling at the moon with the jackalopes is fun:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
PS:

quote:

The 404 RIP turned out to be no improvement over the standard 404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express.

Whatever your problem,

Yes, the 404 RIP is my "problem."

it wasn't the case. That is a beautiful case design.

Yes, it is a beautiful case, thank you. No flies on that one!

Misalligned barrel, action, feeding ramp, rails, underutilized powder capacity, insufficient testing ?, ?, ?

That last sentence was the equivalent of howling at the moon.
There is no reasonable response except to just join in with this howl of my own.

That case will do 60000psi
True.
and can generate 6000-6500ftpounds for various bullets, especially with Barnes cut bands or GSC driving bands,
well beyond the 404's wasted neck-space and thinner shoulders.
Alas, the jackalope howl has changed to the foaming at the mouth of a rabid 404 Jeffery hater!

My brass measures, my testing, the hydrophobic may have trouble with this drink from the waterhole of truth:

404 Jeffery: 115.8 grains of water, that's 12% smaller than the 404 RIP. The 404 Jeffery gives velocity 3% less than the 404 RIP.
404 RIP: 131.6 grains of water, that's 13.6% larger than the 404 Jeffery. The 404 RIP gives velocity 3.4% greater than the 404 Jeffery.

Both cases of modern make are good to 60,000 psi.
The bolt thrust with the 404 Jeffery will be less than with the 404 RIP at that pressure,
but that is of no consequence, as modern actions, like modern brass works fine for both at that pressure.

Consider both rifles with 24" barrels:
320-grain GSC HV (chrongraph at 5 yards corrected to MV for BC = 0.338)
404 Jeffery: 2854 fps MV ... 5787 ft-lbs
404 RIP: 2942 fps MV ... 6149 ft-lbs

The 404 RIP goes 88 fps faster with the same bullet, burns more powder, recoils more, and requires a 3.8" action instead of a 3.6" action.
Both of my rifles are throated the same and allow 0.200" longer-COL seating.
If we put both in the 3.8"-box-length action, the 404 Jeffery can have 7.1 grains extra water capacity added to it,
by longCOL seating.
404 Jeffery: 115.8 + 7.1 = 122.9 grains water
404 RIP: 131.6 + 0.0 = 131.6 grains water
The 404 Jeffery becomes only 6.6% smaller and delivers only 1.65% less velocity than the 404 RIP.
Only 49 fps slower.

But still, the 404 RIP is a beautiful thing!
I will save the take-off barrel, re-install if the .500 Jeffery disappoints.
I also have a take-off CZ 404 Jeffery barrel I can re-chamber to 404 RIP, if the .500 Jeffery does not disappoint.
It is 25" long and will give more of an advantage over my 24" 404 Jeffery M70 Winchester.
Then I will have one of each, 404 Jeffery, 404 RIP and .500 Jeffery.
That will be worth a good howl at the moon.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
... You can fire the
Schuler in the Jeffery chamber but not the other way around(or is it the other way round?) and the case volume, depending on which case brand your using, is twins and both loaded to almost the same pressures.

only difference is (maybe) shoulder angle -- and depending on the chamber, all, some, or none of any of the samples known may fit

That pretty much sums it up.
Depends on tolerances.
But the academic would point out that if both rifles are made to good tolerance and their respective CIP minimum chamber specs:

You can chamber a .500 Jeffery cartridge in a 12.7x70 (.500 Schuler) rifle, but will have excessive headspace. Might be dangerous to fire.

You might not be able to close the bolt on a 12.7x70 (.500 Schuler) cartridge in the chamber of a .500 Jeffery rifle.

About every number on the CIP drawings differs between the two cartridges, slightly in lengths and diameters, even the twist rates.

.500 Jeffery Twist = 508.00mm = 1:20"
12.7x70 (.500 Schuler) = 450.00mm = 1:17.72", about 1:18"

The .500 Jeffery has about a 12.5-degree shoulder semi-angle, and the brass maximum length is 2.750 or 69.85mm.
The 12.7x70 (.500 Schuler) has about a 20-degree shoulder semi-angle, and the brass maximum length is 2.756" or 70.00mm.
Fancy that!

Rip ...

Whoooeee...interesting stuff...sounds like them ol' boys could get the hair flying with all the head scratching...30-06 and 7.7 x 58 mm Japanese all over again in later years.



Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The 404 RIP turned out to be no improvement over the standard 404 Jeffery.

That comment needed context and correction. I think we are now agreed.

[later post]
The 404 RIP goes 88 fps faster with the same bullet

The truth comes out. About 100fps for handholds, and several hundred over a factory-loaded Jeffery bullet.

But still, the 404 RIP is a beautiful thing!

Yes, when a girl dances in the moonlight, facts is facts and a little beauty can be seen.

It looks like a little howling brought the truth to the surface.

If one wants to handload to capacity, then the 404RIP does indeed improve on the Jeffery. And the case is indeed elegant.

If someone were to use factory levels, then the Jeffery round is anemic [and ugly/wasteful with a camel neck]. For a factory rifle one might be advised to get a 416 Ruger and go hunting. With a little forethought, a person can even stick a 330gn GSC in the end of the Ruger case.

Oh. Quibbling, eh?
If only I had said that the 404 RIP
offered no SIGNIFICANT improvement
over the 404 Jeffery ... (sigh) ...
I won’t make that mistake again.

RIP ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Oh. Quibbling, eh?
If only I had said that the 404 RIP
offered no SIGNIFICANT improvement
over the 404 Jeffery ... (sigh) ...
I won’t make that mistake again.

RIP ...

RIP, sometimes it's hard to receive a significant compliment.
The 404 RIP is a great cartridge and design. It shuts down the 404.

Look at it:



Then compare the competition, Westley-R and Jeffery:


It's up to the rifleman/riflewoman and handloader to make SIGNIFICANT use of the design. A 30-06 can out-do a 308Win: the '06 can be loaded more than half-way to WinMag levels if they want to tinker and play with throats. A 280 and a 270 can outdo a 7x57 or a 7-08. Same thing, even if it only means 100fps sometimes.

The only drawback of the 404 RIP is that it is a boutique wildcat. And maybe that the 404RIP was designed a century too late. Of course, if all you want is an easy-carrying BG/DG rifle, there is always a 416Ruger African, or for a few insignificant dollars more, a CZ 458WM !

The 425 WR and 404 Jeffery seen as Competition ?

Seriously ?

This is like telling Sir Edmond Hillary that somehow in the this world he is competition to one of the literally thousands of modern day mount Everest trippers that make the trip up Mount Everest.... or somehow that that very first Mercedes car is competition to a modern day car driving our roads.

There is no competition because guess what?

None of these modern whizz bangers can claim the position that the old cartridges hold ! In life there are firsts and the rest well they are just wannabe's !

The WR or the 404 does not care what we say about their weird appearances or their apparent shortcomings ! Because they were / are still number one warts and all !

The position these cartridges hold in the history of DG shooting are singularly unique!

As far was WR goes , Leslie Taylor of WR who held between 1898 and 1912 no less than 30 patents to his name and was awarded a whole host of Royal warrants, gold and grand prix awards for excellence in gun design cannot seriously be held in the same esteem as an originator of anything we have now , because anything we have now is simply riding on the coat tails of what came first.

One could perhaps argue what came first, the 425 or the 404 , that would be a valid competition !

Fact is that in the world of DG hunting at the time the shooting world was still struggling with the search for temperature stable propellants. They had already seen transition from large bore to small bore calibers, multi shot magazine capability and very importantly the use of the Mauser 98 action, another first ! The Mauser 98 was seen as revolutionary in that it solved many problems inherent to the bolt actions of the time, issues of bolting , safety and gas management at a time when case ruptures were a real problem.

The 450 caliber was still viewed as the "ideal" in DG hunting but there was nothing in this realm that could be used in a box magazine fed bolt action gun.

Leslie Taylor gave us a plus 40 caliber magazine fed, clip loaded Mauser 98 compliant cartridge rifle option capable of a 5+1 loading in 1909 and he patented this. This was a first and he had the results in terms or ballistic performance to back it up. Above all the gun was offered at a price point that made it affordable !

It was preceded by Jeffery's offering of the same though Jeffery only did 4+1 but was not clip fed. Plus 40 caliber, box magazine fed Mauser 98 compliant and highly affordable !

The rebated rims simply an attempt to match a large capacity case with the dimensional restrictions of the standard Mauser action. The magnum action had not yet been devised.

Though I am now a .500 Jeffery lover,
the 425 WR is still considered to be ...
Well, never mind. I just remembered something Mama told me.

Rip ...

Imagine what the 30 caliber world would be like if the 300 Mags and the 30-06 were loaded down to the 308Win and paraded around as plains game dragon slayers?

That is what is going on at 50 caliber. The 505 Gibbs, 500 Jeffrey, and 500 A2 are loaded down to the 500 AccRel Nyati and below.
Yes, they are all real dragon slayers and all do a job on a buffalo, but what is the point of all the powder and extra space? Here is simplicity in 50 caliber:



On the left is the efficient, clean looking 500AccRel, wearing a GSC face. The elegant lady on the right is a 375 Ruger.

True, and I have a 500 Bateleur (.510/.338 LM-Imp) that is only 0.050" longer than the 500 AR Nyati.
But I still want a 500 Jeffery.
Want has nothing to do with need.

Rip ...