I love all the guns displayed except the plastic stock ones but I NEVER want another 500 of any kind..A muzzle brake and 2 inch thick recoil pad has 0 effect on them..I hate shooting them, my elephant friends hate the too.

If I had my pick of a DG rifle today Id opt for the .425 WR and oh how I love those clips..

I rebuilt a .425 with a bad bore to a 458 Win. As I recall I had Dennis Olson to the feed work and it worked slicker n snot..He said is took very little work to make it feed, must have he didn't charge me much to do it as I recall. A good friend of mine gave me the rifle because of the bad bore, when I got it done I sent it back to him..He was beside himself, loved it..I have often regretted that.

Like Finn, like Ray,
resurrection of a 425 WR as a .458 Win. Mag.,
clips and all.


Rip ...

Got my name on a .500 Jeffery Reamer.
I, the ex-hater of the .500 Jeffery!
Dated Jan 10, 2018, I am still waiting for it to arrive in the mail.

"500 Jeffery Match"
"Ron Berry"
"Print # 72474"
"DWG by Dave Kiff"



CIP spec except for the throat.

Rip ...

From the BASA monograph on the .500 Jeffery and 12.7 x 70 Schuler, by D.J. Lewis:

"Richard Schuler 1879 - 1965 received his fathers shares in 1912 and bought out his uncle Oscar in 1913 to become sole owner of August Schuler Waffenfabrik.
He is also the designer of the 11.15x60; 11.2x72 and 12.7x70 cartridges!"

Developed prior to March 1927, the "Caliber 500 Schuler's Model Jumbo" was written up by Mr. Joseph Deeg, "well known gunwriter of that period"
in the March 1927 issue of the journal "DER WAFFENSCHMIED" ("THE GUNSMITH").
The article was entitled (English transaltion)
"AN INNOVATIVE GERMAN FIRST"
"The .500 Calibre Schuler Cartridge - by Joseph Deeg"

The British laughed last but laughed best with their copy called the .500 Jeffery.
The first .500 Jeffery rifle was completed by Mr. H. Leonard and delivered to the W.J. Jeffery firm on December the 6th, 1927, long after Jackman's passing:
24" barrel, 3+1 loading capacity, and 10.25" weight, on a Magnum Mauser action.
Sold for 35 London pounds.
A standard CZ 550 Magnum might resemble that!

Rip ...

+1

Delivered to Jeffery From H Leonard in May 1928
Rifle No 5 of 21 for Jeffery and 3 To Gibbs






From 2 years before 1926 A Jeffery in 375 H&H

RIP,

This is what Lon Paul did to my ZKK 602 in .375 H&H, after it had spent a couple of years at Z Hat Custom Guns and returned totally screwed up. He rebarreled it to .500 Jeffrey and replaced the stock with a CZ 550 stock, which he then proceeded to customize. I am quite fond of the result, with the 3X Leupold scope perched on it.

[/QUOTE]

A beauty and a pussycat recoil wise

ALF,

I just re-read the BASA monograph I got from you many moons ago, by D.J. Lewis. I did not see Alf Smith mentioned therein,
but I am sure he must have been involved in the research for that:



It is about the best single source for historical information on the .500 Jeffery, but dated 1998 by the context (no copyright date printed anywhere in it).
It could use some updating. It heralded new CIP homologations for both the .500 Jeffery and the .500 Schuler in 1998.
These were updated/revised in 2002.I wonder what was changed?

And who is this Wolfgang Romey character needlessly trying to confuse things with another specification, the "Romey Hybrid?"

And to think that Richard Schuler lived to 1965, but died behind the Iron Curtain, I assume, without leaving a memoir to clear up confusion.
Like Hoyem claims 1923 as the origination date of the .500 Schuler Jumbo ... others do not say, except to report that it was definitely being written about in March 1927.

Tony Sanchez-Arino worked with Harald Wolf in the 1980s-1990s to revive the .500 Jeffery and create the ".500 Jeffery Improved" (non-rebated rim).
Tony stated in a journal article that news of the .500 Schuler Jumbo first appeared in a 1926 German magazine, Waffe und Sport.
I am still looking for that one ...

Rip ...

xausa,

Thanks for the pattern for my rifle.
If only I had the integral pop-up peep ...




Rip ...

Tony and Harald revived the .500 Jeffery.
Note that they thought the rebated rim was a problem worth fixing with the .500 Jeffery Improved,
same cartridge except for full-diameter "rimless" rim.
The only other shortcoming (pun intended) is the short neck.
Then came the .500 AHR that gave it a longer neck too ...

Rip ...

Oh, yeah, the above is an excerpt for book review purposes.
Book: RIFLE & SHOTGUN ANNUAL
I forget what year it was from, 1990s?
Anyway, book review: Great book.

By the start of his ninth decade of life, Tony Sanchez-Arino had regressed to a .416 Rigby bolt action and was still a PH in Africa.
He has guided some Russian brown bear hunts too, I hear.

I'm outta here, flyin' by the seat of my pants.




Rip ...

RIP
I was not part of Casey's effort on the 500 ( I was on the 404 though)

The monograph and the article you just posted is confusing still and if I may be so bold as to criticize I believe the problem to lie in timeline.

The very opening statement by Sanchez-Arino is the problem ! 500 jeffery originally known as......... and there we go again. Because if we take a Schuler chamber cast and a original jeffery chamber cast they don't match. And if we take original RWS and Kynoch drawings they do not match.

If one were to put source of info like who worked where and when, or listing in a catalog or date on drawing with a name listed, to a date on a spread sheet then a more accurate and less confusing picture emerges.

Our problem is that errors were printed in sources like COTW and have been rehashed by anyone who then writes for gun rags.

The Sanchez-Arino article speaks of Mr Schuler but which one exactly? and then of course this pesky little problem of the fact that there were gunmakers houses and cartridge makers in Europe at the time and the two entities collaborated.

The cartridge makers had ballistics engineers and labs associated with them and in many instances in the case of RWS and DWM were the actual albeit silent partners in the design.

To further add to the mix the fact that the guns were physically built in one place and then exported and rebranded by another.

What we do have and that should always be ( if possible) a starting point for research IMO are Proof House records , then add catalogs and cartridge lists. I stated if possible because sadly WW2 destroyed many meticulously kept records.

ALF,

It is certain that nobody has gotten it all together on a timeline as you suggest,
and never will because of the destruction of records caused by WWII and the further losses behind the Iron Curtain,
including the death of Richard Schuler in 1965.

It has been reported that Richard Schuler (wish I could type an "oomlah") got a patent related to the rebated rim "rimless" cartridge in 1904.
His 11.2x60mm Schuler cartridge, based on "the old Prussian 11.15mm Mauser Black Powder military round" seems to have been a first for rebated wonders?
Two or three years later, Harald Wolf says, came the 11.2x72mm Schuler, with .440"-caliber bullets.

Seems the Brits played catchup on these with the rebated-rim .425 WR coming along about the same time as the 11.2x72 Schuler.
The Brits (or Irish, Rigby) really forged ahead with the non-rebated .416 Rigby of 1911.

Also seems to me that Richard Schuler might have been inspired by W. Jackman Jeffery's 404 Jeffery of 1904.
Richard could never top that most superior medium-bore cartridge, the 404 Jeffery, so he had to go bigger, after Jackman's death.

The pre-1927 .500 Schuler Jumbo would have been a natural for the W.J. Jeffery Co. to modify into their own .500 Jeffery, rebated rim and all,
except for the slicker, reduced shoulder angle,
said to be for better feeding.

Definitely most irritating to read that the .500 Schuler Jumbo and the .500 Jeffery Rimless were ever considered to be the same cartridge.
They never were.
And the Schuler nomenclature switch to 12.7x70mm Schuler coming in the 1940s is only significant as trivia.
It never helped the "experts" distinguish or date the origins of these two cartridges.
Seems to have confused them into thinking the .500 Jeffery came first.
Never!
The 404 Jeffery came first, seems pretty certain, and inspired all that came after.
Jackman was the original genius.
His surviving relations saw it as fair play to slightly modify Richard Schuler's .500 Jumbo, change the shoulder and change the J-word,
voila! The .500 Jeffery.


Rip ...

Fascinating thread

For those interested the patent for the rimless rebated case is German Patent D.R.G.M (Deutsches Reiches Gebrauchs Musterschutz) 239127 granted on 31 October 1904 for the 11.2 X 60 SCHÜLER - a round to duplicate the pumpkin throwing, DRT keiler whacking ballistics of the 11.15x60R M71 Mauser military cartridge in the new M88 and M98 rifles.

Just to show that ballistics history has a tendency to repeat itself, Blaser & Wolfgang Romey copied the concept and brought out their .45 Blaser - 11,7 x 55 - in 2005 another rebated rim wild boar thumper, this time designed to fit rifles built around the 7,62 Nato rather than the 7,92 x 57

GBE +1

Just to wet the appetite

Schuler's "little 11.2 mm "



Sadly Not an orignal Schuler but a Heinrich Krieghoff ( close enough)




and then just to round of the discussion my attempt at playing homage to the rifles of German colonial rule in Africa

quote:

Rigby) really forged ahead with the non-rebated .416 Rigby of 1911.

quote:

... Richard could never top that most superior medium-bore cartridge, the 404 Jeffery,

Put a 416 Rigby and a 404 Jeffrey in you hand. Elegance vs. a camel

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Put a 416 Rigby and a 404 Jeffrey in you hand. Elegance vs. a camel

Which is which?

GEB,

Many thanks for contributing this important meat to the stew!
Where did you find that patent info?

Ernst Friedrich Schuler was a master stockmaker (1781-1829).
His son Friedrich Wilhelm Schuler (1816-1850) started the family gunmaking business in Suhl, 1835, along with younger brother August Gottlieb Schuler (1819-1906).

August Gottlieb Schuler took over the business on the death of his brother, 1850.
The business hailed as "AUGUST SCHULER WAFFENFABRIK, Gegrundit 1835."
(All of this Schuler history is from the D.J. Lewis BASA monograph, pp. 3-4).

August Gottlieb Schuler had two sons, Oscar and August Friedrich Schuler (1854-1945), who took over the business in 1880.

August Friedrich Schuler had a son Richard (1879-1965).

Richard Schuler took over the shares of retiring father August Friedrich Schuler in 1912, and bought out uncle Oscar Schuler in 1913,
thus becoming the sole owner of AUGUST SCHULER WAFFENFABRIK.
Richard had a son named Hans who took over whenever Richard stepped aside, year not specified in the Lewis monograph.
But nothing survived WWII occupation by Americans who turned it over to the communist regime.
They combined and controlled all the private firms in gunmaking: "Even their former names were stripped from the respective premises" (Lewis, p. 3).

quote:

Originally posted by GBE:
For those interested the patent for the rimless rebated case is German Patent D.R.G.M (Deutsches Reiches Gebrauchs Musterschutz) 239127 granted on 31 October 1904 for the 11.2 X 60 SCHÜLER - a round to duplicate the pumpkin throwing, DRT keiler whacking ballistics of the 11.15x60R M71 Mauser military cartridge in the new M88 and M98 rifles.

Richard Schuler was working for Pop August and Uncle Oscar in 1904.
Richard is the prime suspect for the rebated rimless cartridge!

Rip ...

ALF,

Thanks for a look at the 11.2x60mm Schuler and its BP antecedent, 11.15x60R Mauser.
Looks like as much fun as an 1867 Second Allin Conversion Trapdoor .50-70 Govt.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Put a 416 Rigby and a 404 Jeffrey in you hand. Elegance vs. a camel

Which is which?

PD999,

Be patient with 416Tanzan. He is a 404 Jeffery hater.
I was once a .500 Jeffery hater.
Old dogs do occasionally learn new tricks.
Lightbulbs can be changed, but first they must want to change.
In the severely afflicted it may take three psychiatrists to do it: One to hold the lightbulb and two to spin the ladder.
If that fails, a religious conversion is the last hope.





Minor correction:
12.7x70 (500 Schuler) maximum brass length = 70.00 mm
500 Jeffery maximum brass length = 69.85 mm

Continue digging here for Richard and Hans:



http://www.germanhuntingguns.c...e-august-schuler-co/


Rip ...

Elegance and camels ?

Originals are my thing, original rifles shooting original spec loads.

The Rigby is big and it is brash when compared to the Jeffery 404. I can shoot the Jeffery all day, the Rigby not so much.

And if you really want to see elegance in wood and steel there is little that stirs the heart and comes close to perfection as an original un anglicized Oberndorf Model A in 10,75 x 73

Aesthetically and dimensionally the original lines on the Oberndorf Model A as represented by the 10,75x73 is IMO perfection ! Everything else will be measured to this.

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Put a 416 Rigby and a 404 Jeffrey in you hand. Elegance vs. a camel

Which is which?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so there is no point in stating which is elegant and which is a camel. But as a hint, I am not enamored with the .425 WR either.

I am glad to see the 505 added to the list. It too is elegant in my eyes.
It may not have the widest bullet choices in .505" but what capacity and proportions!

In design I have leaned to the 505 over the Jeffery. But when push came to shove and I finally got my own 50, I whimped out and went with a 2.65" Rigby case. It fit in a little Ruger Hawkeye rifle, imagine that. And it does 7000 foot-pounds without breaking a sweat. I've even downloaded the 450gn GSC to 6750 foot-pounds (2600fps) as all that I want or need for African hunting.

For all of you that want to hunt with the Jeffery at factory levels, what the AccRel already does, go for it. There is no hate or dissing, it's your hunt. But I can't vote for the Jeffery in a big game cartridge beauty contest.

I guess for shooting "originals", I might go with the 416 Ruger at original specs.
Now to sip a nice Merlot from the other end of the rift valley and with the highest levels of resveratrol worldwide.

This needs to be added to the thread:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRIrUcBONYw&t=9s

A Norwegian teenage girl takes the shock out of "500 Jeffery Shocker!"

I really did not know that this was some kind of competition ?

There is something special about all of the originals and no matter how much more modern, more "better" comes along there is something to be said about a original box of ammo, an original rifle and the a stirring you feel when you hear and see their names engraved and stamped on barrels. I remember them all, those first dates.

When given the first and only opportunity to hunt upland game birds in Montana I got to do it with an old Parker over a properly trained young lab. It was perfection and it was proper.

And thinking back on past hunts and there have been many I have never gone into the bush or hunted the deserts with foot pounds. It has always been with a special rifle, My rifle and selected for the purpose and specifically rooted on a spiritual connection with something historical significant to that area. I refuse to do it in any other way.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
I really did not know that this was some kind of competition ?

There is something special about all of the originals and no matter how much more modern, more "better" comes along there is something to be said about a original box of ammo, an original rifle and the a stirring you feel when you hear and see their names engraved and stamped on barrels. I remember them all, those first dates.

When given the first and only opportunity to hunt upland game birds in Montana I got to do it with an old Parker over a properly trained young lab. It was perfection and it was proper.

And thinking back on past hunts and there have been many I have never gone into the bush or hunted the deserts with foot pounds. It has always been with a special rifle, My rifle and selected for the purpose and specifically rooted on a spiritual connection with something historical significant to that area. I refuse to do it in any other way.

Amen

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

Thanks for the reply.
Now I want a 500 Jeffery CZ 550 Magnum.
Never would have believed that would happen in a thousand years!
I amazed myself this time.

Rip ...

Back in the day, I hunted some Africa with a .500Jeff (a loaner, CZ conversion) and while I liked it, I won't change my love for the almighty .458WM

Maybe, just maybe, you can profile me as a diehard fan of the late Finn Aagaard, whose writings about the .458 and the Mauser action made me a believer.

https://www.riflemagazine.com/...agid=25&tocid=335ard.

I seriously do not get all the hoopla about the 500 Jeffery !


The reason I state this stems mainly from the fact that I know of no person or instance where other than the "legend of one Fletcher Jamison " there was anyone who in the day considered this to be a serious contender as a common use hunting arm or caliber !

The mere fact that there was historically a serious lack of ammo availability the few original rifles built were rather large and very cumbersome. Make no mistake about it Jeffery's original big 500 is a physically large rifle !

The emergence of this caliber and mainly custom and semi custom guns hail from a "I want one because its bigger than yours " need and I bet that most customs built never have or ever will be used for the purpose intended.

Feeding a 500 in the environment where it was intended to be used is beyond the price point of most professionals and thus makes it largely a use once on that dream Safari contender.

A good rule of thumb in this instance is when you only get to buy factory ammo in neat little packs of 5

A note on foot-pounds when discussing cartridges:

roughly speaking, the foot-pounds allow one to group together various bullet weights.
For example, in the 338WM, whether shooting 200 grains, 225 grains or 250 grains, the loads will all group around 4000 ft-pds. Of course, at extremes one may see a reduction: the 300 grain loads in the 338WM may reduce the capacity so that loads may group at 3800ft@, etc.

This foot-pound rule-of-thumb may help when comparing rounds like 270, 7mg, 308, 30-06, 300 and wanting to discuss various BC's and bullet weights.

For .50" big bores, it is useful when comparing boutique bullet-loads like the 450gnGSC with "standard fare" like 570gn at similar ft-pd levels. If people want to hunt with the Gibbs or Jeffery and loads in the 6000-7000 ft# range, that is fine. However, the AccRel does the same safely in a little package. I happen to like lighter bullets to dominate down-range out to 300 yards as well as close-up. The foot# number allows one to compare across the board to see what is happening and where significant under-utilization is occurring. It's very practical for doing all sorts of quick calculations in one's head.

As for hunting, of course, the BULLET does the work. Its characteristics, accuracy, weight, integrity, and impact velocity then dominate discussions and calculations. Different parameters become useful for different comparisons.
Foot-pounds, bore diameter, and shooter comfort are good for evaluating projectile platforms.
Shooter satisfaction is certainly to be include here, too. I support Jeffery shooters even if I don't own a Jeffery or care to buy one.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
It has always been with a special rifle, My rifle and selected for the purpose and specifically rooted on a spiritual connection with something historical significant to that area. I refuse to do it in any other way.

what spiritual connection does a muzzle braked contender pistol evoke for you, Doc? specially when shooting off someone's back/shoulder?

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
So I bought his 375 JDJ contender off him as well as a set of 320 gr bullet molds for the 44

The 375 JDJ had a 10 inch barrel with magna porting, a 2 to 7 power Leopold pistol scope and 3 TSOB rings on a rail.

I was on a hunt in the Orange Free State at Tussen die Riviere and I took dead rest over the game scouts shoulder at a Blesbuck with the pistol and him holding his ears. The grass that time of year was quite tall and there was nothing else to take a rest on.

It was the last time he allowed this though I had sense enough to have him cover his ears with his hands but while his ears were covered the blast from the magna porting cut his shirt collar and peppered the skin of his neck and wrist leaving a tattoo of lead and powder residue ! Not only that the pistol had a wicked whip and it smacked him really hard on the forearm.

The next time it came time to shoot he vigorously declined acting as a rest !

You should know by now, ALF, that contention is the name of the game on AR...and nostalgia is ALWAYS hanging around in nooks and cranny's...I see no problem with either except it DOES get in the way and VERY old after a time.

I think there should be a forum for the history buffs where all this excellent information could be saved, stored and retrieved for those that enjoy it.

I also think that those that keep the ancient history alive are to be commended...it keeps the dream alive for some...problem is in todays world hunters are killing the last of the great beasts either by overpopulation or outright pulling the trigger...I think my grandson will see the last lion, tiger and elephant exterminated all for someones "manly"? ego.

quote:

I think my grandson will see the last lion, tiger and elephant exterminated all for someones "manly"? ego.

I hope for better things.
Possibly this year we might have a visit and one of my grandkids might be able to go "camping". At 9 1/2 he seems too small to put a 338WM in his hands and I don't have anything smaller available yet. Things are slow in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:

I think there should be a forum for the history buffs where all this excellent information could be saved, stored and retrieved for those that enjoy it.

Now that's an idea

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:

I think there should be a forum for the history buffs where all this excellent information could be saved, stored and retrieved for those that enjoy it.

Now that's an idea

That's what this "big bore" forum is!

I am not a bitter little man with a personal agenda of promoting some cartridge over another.

I am a happy little man with an open mind, an old dog learning new tricks for me, that are actually old tricks for many.

Never mind that the 500 Mbogo-3-Inch and 500 Bateleur-2.7-Inch are superior .510-caliber rifles that do all I could ever need done.
I want a 500 Jeffery Gun for Dinosaur.

Now I'll just listen to the jackalopes howling at the moon for a while, or just the crickets.

Rip ...

Jeffeosso:

No nostalgia really but a whole lot of prep and serious study went into that hunt ! It was really not mine to hunt but I was the second name on the draw and at the time I had a serious affliction for handguns..... it did not last though as the reality of the "stunt" overtook any arguments pro use of a sub par caliber / gun for a large animal. Speak of the Cecil the lion effect, We lived it because no sooner had we returned from that ill fated hunt it made the back pages of the newspapers and we made headlines in a scrap with SA Hunters. I learnt lot from that little debacle..... never ever allow anyone else to video of film a hunt for the press, even if they wowed at the time to do it for promotional purposes.